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  1. #61
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Right, but this is clearly transitional. It's very clear the mutants are acting in a very isolationist manner that's unlike them, and that's been noted in-universe. It's NOT treated as an unambiguously good thing. The story is morally ambiguous, and not in favor of the mutants just because they're the focus. Things will definitely change, but it's doubtful they will remain isolated in their own nation forever. X-Men has been about pushing equality, not superiority. After whatever conflict this leads to, mark my words, this will lead into a new era of trying to promote peace and equality (the "Day of X") where mutants and non-mutants work together, and Krakoa (if it remains) opens its doors to all. Trust me, I can see the signs already, and this status quo is not a permanent thing.

    Just because the X-Men will change, doesn't mean that this story itself is the permanent change. What matters is what comes after.
    How is it unlike them? They’ve done it two times before. The story isn’t treating the mutants with clear “good v evil” signifiers because it doesn’t matter. The mutants are trying to ensure their survival from getting killed all the time and.....the narrative is clearly being positioned in favor of mutants. Or at least that’s where our empathy should lie, unless you’re seriously suggesting that ORCHIS is also morally ambiguous.

    Also, under normal circumstances, Krakoa isn’t an “isolationist” state. Mutants can go into whatever country they want. The mutants have earned a safe space unless you haven’t been paying attention to the 70+ years of horrible anti-mutant destruction they’ve faced. HOXPOX was the transition, we’re already where we need to be. The goal was establishing Krakoa as a sovereign nation and they’ve done that. We’re in the start of a new era, not the middle of one.

  2. #62
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestroneto View Post
    I think they’ll go in a more TAS direction. They’re really pushing its presence on Disney+ and something like Krakoa would alienate mainstream audiences too much.
    I think that could be where things start off, with Krakoa possibly being a major shift like Endgame. I just can’t see CB having Hickman coming onboard to shake the table with the X-Men franchise without some inkling of what could happen on the cinematic side. Then again, that could be exactly what happened.

  3. #63
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    How is it unlike them? They’ve done it two times before. The story isn’t treating the mutants with clear “good v evil” signifiers because it doesn’t matter. The mutants are trying to ensure their survival from getting killed all the time and.....the narrative is clearly being positioned in favor of mutants. Or at least that’s where our empathy should lie, unless you’re seriously suggesting that ORCHIS is also morally ambiguous.

    Also, under normal circumstances, Krakoa isn’t an “isolationist” state. Mutants can go into whatever country they want. The mutants have earned a safe space unless you haven’t been paying attention to the 70+ years of horrible anti-mutant destruction they’ve faced. HOXPOX was the transition, we’re already where we need to be. The goal was establishing Krakoa as a sovereign nation and they’ve done that. We’re in the start of a new era, not the middle of one.
    While there's no doubting that mutants have faced oppression and racism from many non-mutants in the past, is it really fair to paint the millions of humans who were ambivalent or even supportive of mutants in the same light as William Stryker and the Trasks?

    Or for that matter, their non-mutant friends, allies and teammates, who are also being shunned and seen in the same way as any anti-mutant racist. They've been on good terms with the Fantastic Four, the Avengers, and individual heroes like Spider-Man, and there have been non-mutant heroes who've served the X-Men and related teams, like Omega Sentinel, yet they're not allowed on Krakoa either.

    Yet, they're allowing murderers, rapists and other such scumbags in the nation just for being mutants...

    And, dude, it has been noted in-universe how weird they are. Right there in the first issue you have the Fantastic Four, in particular Reed, not liking this one bit. Reed isn't an anti-mutant racist, either.



    Don't get the wrong idea about me, I think it's an interesting story. I do not, however, believe that this is the permanent status quo no matter how much change is ahead of us.

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    While there's no doubting that mutants have faced oppression and racism from many non-mutants in the past, is it really fair to paint the millions of humans who were ambivalent or even supportive of mutants in the same light as William Stryker and the Trasks?

    Or for that matter, their non-mutant friends, allies and teammates, who are also being shunned and seen in the same way as any anti-mutant racist. They've been on good terms with the Fantastic Four, the Avengers, and individual heroes like Spider-Man, and there have been non-mutant heroes who've served the X-Men and related teams, like Omega Sentinel, yet they're not allowed on Krakoa either.

    Yet, they're allowing murderers, rapists and other such scumbags in the nation just for being mutants...

    And, dude, it has been noted in-universe how weird they are. Right there in the first issue you have the Fantastic Four, in particular Reed, not liking this one bit. Reed isn't an anti-mutant racist, either.



    Don't get the wrong idea about me, I think it's an interesting story. I do not, however, believe that this is the permanent status quo no matter how much change is ahead of us.
    There are no supportive humans and non-mutants in the 616 universe. The instant the X-Men were gone for three days, Congress overwhelmingly passed a bill to have all mutants depowered and sterilized, or be hunted down and killed by death squads. No one protested that. No one said a word, just loaded the mutants into trains for Bergen-Belsen.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  5. #65
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    Mutants will never have a safe space X-Force #1 shows it pretty clear. Because Krakoa depends of one thing slow human research. The Drugs are all about that, give humanity the cure of all illness to avoid their own research because in every timeline human intelligence and self improvement defeats the natural gift of the mutants and their only hope is grow faster enought to destroy humanty before they are too avanced.

    Obviously this theme will not be the central plot of the X-men forever.

  6. #66
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    There are no supportive humans and non-mutants in the 616 universe. The instant the X-Men were gone for three days, Congress overwhelmingly passed a bill to have all mutants depowered and sterilized, or be hunted down and killed by death squads. No one protested that. No one said a word, just loaded the mutants into trains for Bergen-Belsen.
    The X-Men comics tend to focus on mutant racism because of the theme, just like a story set in a morgue would have dead people. It's not perfect in the past, but it's needs to be stressed: Not everyone who isn't a mutant hates mutants.

  7. #67
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    Why would anyone say a word about depower mutants? in the Marvel Universe there are not rights about super powers. Mutants didnt have right to have powers
    Most Heroes would say : " Well , end of the mutant racism , just become all human and be happy"

  8. #68
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    While there's no doubting that mutants have faced oppression and racism from many non-mutants in the past, is it really fair to paint the millions of humans who were ambivalent or even supportive of mutants in the same light as William Stryker and the Trasks?

    Or for that matter, their non-mutant friends, allies and teammates, who are also being shunned and seen in the same way as any anti-mutant racist. They've been on good terms with the Fantastic Four, the Avengers, and individual heroes like Spider-Man, and there have been non-mutant heroes who've served the X-Men and related teams, like Omega Sentinel, yet they're not allowed on Krakoa either.

    Yet, they're allowing murderers, rapists and other such scumbags in the nation just for being mutants...

    And, dude, it has been noted in-universe how weird they are. Right there in the first issue you have the Fantastic Four, in particular Reed, not liking this one bit. Reed isn't an anti-mutant racist, either.



    Don't get the wrong idea about me, I think it's an interesting story. I do not, however, believe that this is the permanent status quo no matter how much change is ahead of us.
    No one is saying all that with humans, but there is a clear acknowledgment that the anti-mutant sentiment is something that’s been systemically ingrained (like PsychoEFrost pointed out, anti-mutsnt laws get pushed through with little to no backlash) across the world. If you were to go up and ask Jean Grey if she saw Stevie Hunter the same way she saw Stryker, I think we all know what she would say and that’s exactly why ai don’t get how Krakoa is painting a broad brush.

    Whether or not heroes are invited to Krakoa isn’t indicative of how Krakoans view them. Nations that are friendly with Krakoa still can’t step on the main island. In fact, no one is banging on a gateway, asking to move in to Krakoa and that’s probably because they respect what Krakoa represents for mutants as it’s a safe space for them. It’s a safe space for mutants, who no matter the alignment, have never gotten a fair shake in life simply for being a mutant. Even a sociopath like Omega Red was ostracized simply for being a mutant. Like I said, this isn’t about morality anymore but instead survival and ensuring the safety of their species.

    Also......Richards doesn’t have a problem with Krakoa, he has a problem with giving Sabretooth amnesty. Two very different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    Why would anyone say a word about depower mutants? in the Marvel Universe there are not rights about super powers. Mutants didnt have right to have powers
    Most Heroes would say : " Well , end of the mutant racism , just become all human and be happy"
    They were literally born to have powers. It’s by definition a birthright.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    Why would anyone say a word about depower mutants? in the Marvel Universe there are not rights about super powers. Mutants didnt have right to have powers
    Most Heroes would say : " Well , end of the mutant racism , just become all human and be happy"
    Because it fundamentally alters how they were when they were born for the purpose of being fearful and racist?
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    The X-Men comics tend to focus on mutant racism because of the theme, just like a story set in a morgue would have dead people. It's not perfect in the past, but it's needs to be stressed: Not everyone who isn't a mutant hates mutants.
    I'm sure there's a couple hundred in every state that feel that way. But when the government of every major country is trying to wipe them out with zero resistance from any normal humans or super heroes, it's hard to see any more than that.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  11. #71
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    I think that could be where things start off, with Krakoa possibly being a major shift like Endgame. I just can’t see CB having Hickman coming onboard to shake the table with the X-Men franchise without some inkling of what could happen on the cinematic side. Then again, that could be exactly what happened.
    CB have no influence on movies, Marvel studios even cut the marvel writers and editors that reviewed th emovies
    Zethrimon unblock me

  12. #72
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    CB have no influence on movies, Marvel studios even cut the marvel writers and editors that reviewed th emovies
    Hickman and CB both have connections. He’s the editor-in-chief and you don’t think he’s even tangentially aware of plans? Also, I never mentioned anything about “influence.”

  13. #73
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Wanda becomes a mutant again and is accepted with open arms, the Inhumans become next door neighbors to the Summers, and Iceman reveals he's actually asexual.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    They were literally born to have powers. It’s by definition a birthright.
    There is not such thing as birth right of one individuals over other, in theory the human rights are equal to all people. Just because they have powers at birth doesnt mean that they have more right to have powers that Spiderman for example. That is the mindset of Magneto that he is a "Choosen of God"

  15. #75
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    No one is saying all that with humans, but there is a clear acknowledgment that the anti-mutant sentiment is something that’s been systemically ingrained (like PsychoEFrost pointed out, anti-mutsnt laws get pushed through with little to no backlash) across the world. If you were to go up and ask Jean Grey if she saw Stevie Hunter the same way she saw Stryker, I think we all know what she would say and that’s exactly why ai don’t get how Krakoa is painting a broad brush.

    Whether or not heroes are invited to Krakoa isn’t indicative of how Krakoans view them. Nations that are friendly with Krakoa still can’t step on the main island. In fact, no one is banging on a gateway, asking to move in to Krakoa and that’s probably because they respect what Krakoa represents for mutants as it’s a safe space for them. It’s a safe space for mutants, who no matter the alignment, have never gotten a fair shake in life simply for being a mutant. Even a sociopath like Omega Red was ostracized simply for being a mutant. Like I said, this isn’t about morality anymore but instead survival and ensuring the safety of their species.

    Also......Richards doesn’t have a problem with Krakoa, he has a problem with giving Sabretooth amnesty. Two very different things.



    They were literally born to have powers. It’s by definition a birthright.
    Dude, it's clear Reed doesn't like giving Sabretooth amnesty for being a mutant, which stems from the Krakoa issue. I mean, there is this X-Men/Fantastic Four series coming building off of Reed's distrust for Scott.

    All I'm saying is, I believe this status quo is temporary, and though I expect changes, this isn't the change itself. It's a transitional phase. Don't be surprise if it ends up being true. It's not what's happening now that matters, it's what happens afterwards.

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