The Shrike vs. The Lensmen

[Slade1]

we're actually Talking the Lensmen vs the Shrike, but if you want to talk GLs that's fine too. Do the Lanterns have a counter for telepathic attack at solar system or greater distances?

I'm pretty sure all GL have telepathy resistance. But you're right that this is the wrong thread to talk about it. Maybe we should create one for it.

[Cronus]

Aside from the bonus scenario, isnt the Shrike like ridiculously FTL?

[Powerboy]

Aside from the bonus scenario, isnt the Shrike like ridiculously FTL?

I don't know about the Shrike but with the Lensmen by the end of the series having literally millions of lensmen with intergalactic telepathic range, it doesn't really matter.

Howard Allen said the lensmen had ships that traveled 90 parsecs per hour which is about 300 light years per hour, give or take, and those apparently were not even their fastest ships. Not sure how fast the Shrike was.

[The Arbiter]

I don't know about the Shrike but with the Lensmen by the end of the series having literally millions of lensmen with intergalactic telepathic range, it doesn't really matter.

Howard Allen said the lensmen had ships that traveled 90 parsecs per hour which is about 300 light years per hour, give or take, and those apparently were not even their fastest ships. Not sure how fast the Shrike was.

Shrike flirts with the Wally West, Gladiator, Silver Surfer crowd in terms of fight speed.

It's waaaay faster then Post Crisis Kryptonians but waaay slower then the Runner or Pre Crisis Superman at any rate.

[Captain Morgan]

Yeah the travel speed of the Lens ships seems fairly irrelevant. I suppose if they accelerated a strong enough attack fast enough they might be able to hit Shrike if they knew where he was? But that's really the issue. They won't know where he is unless they find with telepathy at which point they have already won.

[Captain Smith]

90 parsecs an hour? I don't recall from the books, but since the GP could cross intergalatic distances, that's rather slow. As far as fighting the Shrike, no individual level weaponry has much of chance. Could you chop him with one of their combat axes? They would have to target him with the superweapons. It is possible that the Arisians or Childrens of the Lens could predict where it would be so a superweapon could arrive at the Shrike's arrival. If it has a 'mind' subject to telepathic attack, which is under debate, then the GP universe can fry him.

As far as the GLs - off topic, the key battle is whether the Guardians can withstand the Arisian, Children of the Lens, and combined Lensmen corps telepathic weapons. The Arisians themselves were immune to all physical attacks, so GLs and giant green steam shovels are irrelevant.

[Slade1]

The Arisians themselves were immune to all physical attacks, so GLs and giant green steam shovels are irrelevant.

That's a no-limits fallacy. They are only immune to the largest amount of punishment they have taken. Otherwise, you are saying that the Presence and Pre-Retcon Beyonder wouldn't be able to hurt them physically.

[Howard Allan]

90 parsecs an hour? I don't recall from the books, but since the GP could cross intergalatic distances, that's rather slow. As far as fighting the Shrike, no individual level weaponry has much of chance. Could you chop him with one of their combat axes? They would have to target him with the superweapons. It is possible that the Arisians or Childrens of the Lens could predict where it would be so a superweapon could arrive at the Shrike's arrival. If it has a 'mind' subject to telepathic attack, which is under debate, then the GP universe can fry him.

As far as the GLs - off topic, the key battle is whether the Guardians can withstand the Arisian, Children of the Lens, and combined Lensmen corps telepathic weapons. The Arisians themselves were immune to all physical attacks, so GLs and giant green steam shovels are irrelevant.

It's specifically mentioned in the books that the travel rate in interGalactic space is far faster than in Galaxy travel.

[Howard Allan]

That's a no-limits fallacy. They are only immune to the largest amount of punishment they have taken. Otherwise, you are saying that the Presence and Pre-Retcon Beyonder wouldn't be able to hurt them physically.

Mentor himself says that the Arisians can no more be destroyed by Physical force than can The Eddorians. The only way the eddorians could be destroyed was by non physical means. The Arisians developed the lensmen to provide this. Mentor himself stated that even the Arisians couldn't destroy all the Eddorians by themselves. The Arisians needed to develope The Children of The Lens before they could attempt to beat the Eddorians. The CoTL are a stage above the Arisian.

[Slade1]

Mentor himself says that the Arisians can no more be destroyed by Physical force than can The Eddorians. The only way the eddorians could be destroyed was by non physical means. The Arisians developed the lensmen to provide this. Mentor himself stated that even the Arisians couldn't destroy all the Eddorians by themselves.

But it's still a No limits fallacy on this board. Statements aren't feats.

[Captain Morgan]

But it's still a No limits fallacy on this board. Statements aren't feats.

Eh. On the scale of destruction the Lensmanverse operates on, you can probably assume it goes at least up to "can't be harmed by a super nova." Which is a pretty solid benchmark.

That said, the Lanterns have trapped ghosts and weird conceptual beings before. Parallax bonds with the very soul of people, and the human lanterns+Kilowag used constructs to rip it out of Ganthet. So the Lanterns aren't limited to purely physical. The big question, IMO, would be how well the Lanterns can withstand the psychic attack. They've certainly got their fair share of telepathic resistance feats, including generating psi shields, but they have been taken over before and are not without limit.

[Captain Smith]

The no limits fallacy needs some sophistication. Normal matter or even antimatter weapons are defined physically by their properties. If a being exists on a plane or level that doesn't interact with such, then the physical force of those weapons won't affect them. The Arisians and Eddorians existed at a level immune to physical weaponry.

[Slade1]

The no limits fallacy needs some sophistication. Normal matter or even antimatter weapons are defined physically by their properties. If a being exists on a plane or level that doesn't interact with such, then the physical force of those weapons won't affect them. The Arisians and Eddorians existed at a level immune to physical weaponry.

It's just a general rule that doesn't need to get complicated. It's always been the highest amount of damage that the character has survived. Nothing more, nothing else. I like to use the KISS rule (Keep it simple, stupid) .

EDIT: Just in case it wasn't clear I'm not calling you stupid; just stating the acronym.

[The Arbiter]

Are they invincible due to being super tough? Or because they are not really "real" anymore and dont really interact with stuff?

[Guy Smiley]

That's a no-limits fallacy. They are only immune to the largest amount of punishment they have taken. Otherwise, you are saying that the Presence and Pre-Retcon Beyonder wouldn't be able to hurt them physically.

No, it really isn't. IIRC, the Arisians were pure thought/energy beings. Intangible beings don't need to justify no-selling physical force. The Eddoreans, on the other hand, are just giant amoebas from another dimension. They definitely have to deal with no-limits fallacy.

Are they invincible due to being super tough? Or because they are not really "real" anymore and dont really interact with stuff?

The latter, I'm pretty sure.