SM/WW Annual #1 & AC Annual #3 Spoilers/Discussion

[Typhoeus]

Attachment 7491

I just want to know, what happened to Diana's other boob? Mastectomy?

Well she's an Amazon; I guess she can aim better that way.

[Lax]

It's disgusting, quite honestly, to hear you denigrate an arc in which a woman was victimized yet managed to fight just long enough to help free herself in time to fight back. It seems you misunderstand the point of an arc. A narrative arc is composed of a beginning, middle, and an end. Lois was empowered at the beginning, victimized in the middle, and empowered in the end. The arc of Lois' story in "Doomed" bends towards reclaiming her own agency through her own tireless struggle against Brainiac.

Characters being victimized in comics is like... a slow Tuesday. Don't know why you're making it out to be some big shocking development. They spend far more panel time in some form of turmoil than they do being happy.

Lois was empowered in the beginning because it was she alone who first caught on to the suspicious nature of The Twenty -- she used her own professional talents to see what no one else cared to see. Lois was victimized at the end of her investigation, but even while in a coma, she managed to use her psionic powers to save Superman and Metropolis from Psycho Pirate. And, as this issue revealed, she also never stopped fighting to be freed while under Brainiac's control.

Ah, I see, so even though she spent the majority of the arc being victimized by a man and struggling to free herself from his control to no avail, it's still largely empowering because she was the one who caught on to The Twenty.

So as Lana was the one who discovered the pattern in Brainiac's ships, that must have been a largely empowering issue for her, riiiiight?

It was her determination to not give up that allowed her to break free of Brainiac's mental hold just long enough to connect with Clark, and his destructive Doomsday mist would not have worked against the bots had Lois not maintained her own psionic strength during her months of struggling. Superman may have destroyed the bots controlling Lois, but it was Lois who enabled her own liberation by fighting so hard. By continuing to fight as Brainiac scratches "at the corners of her mind" even now, Lois continues to show her fortitude and agency.

His destructive mist was destroying the bots just fine, he thought about how much he enjoyed killing them, it's the reason given for why Brainiac couldn't control him. When a man steps in to finish the job for Lois, it doesn't undermine her "fortitude and agency" for the arc.

So when a man decided to step in and vouch for Lana's mad engineering skillz, he wasn't invalidating her competency in the least, riiiiiight?

In the end, Lois chose to continue to fight back once she was no longer at Brainiac's mercy. She was empowered because she did not allow herself to be destroyed by her own victimization. She rose from the ashes immediately to support and defend her friends and her planet from her former master. It is empowering to show a victimized woman whose ceaseless commitment to fighting back enabled her liberation and contributed to her ability to fight back against the person who formerly victimized her.

She started this arc three years ago when she began investigating The Twenty to help victims of Brainiac's first attack on Earth, and she ended this arc fighting side by side with heroes to make sure those victims, including herself, got the justice they all deserved.

Except, ultimately, Lois didn't liberate herself, a man did it for her and when it comes to stopping the scratches "at the corners of her mind" permanently, I'd be willing to bet that a man is going to have to do that for her as well.

Her arc involves spending the better part of three years suffering under the oppression of a man's thumb and the relative freedom she currently enjoys is due to the efforts of another man. Not only is this arc not problematic, but it's actually empowering for Lois.

So when Lana gets some back up from Steel, that is in no way problematic storytelling, riiiiiiight?

Clark has spent the majority of this arc needing others to help him cope with his Doomsday infection. He wouldn't have been effective in this issue, for instance, if not for the help of Martian Manhunter's mind wall or Batman's clearing of the kryptonite. Yet, unsurprisingly, no one seems troubled by his being victimized by Brainiac's plan, turned into a monster, and freed with the help of his many friends. No, it's just Lois who fails to measure up.

But who makes a fuss about women helping men as if it's the writer's passive-aggressive way of undermining male credibility? My point is simply this, people see what they want to see and thus have a tendency to find what they're looking for.

Whether it's things like the Wondy/Lois fight having elements of friction involving men, or a man emphatically backing up Lana. You otherwise look sooooo hard for sexism in how you critique the way these characters are written that it's kind of amusing that Lois's arc isn't also on your hit list.

If you want to see her arc as empowering, then so it is, but you could just as easily look at it and see the sexism you usually do.

Appalling hypocrisy.

If only you knew.

[kidstandout]

wait so lois was being empowered but not lana or diana? wtf is going on lax, explain this bs to me(not claiming it's yours, i genuinely don't know what u and lane are tlking about)

[AriesWarlock]

Well she's an Amazon; I guess she can aim better that way.

You know, I totally forgot about that!

[DochaDocha]

You know, I totally forgot about that!

Not that there were really Amazons like the ones of legend, but the idea that they cut off their right breasts (and maybe left ones if they were lefty) to shoot arrows better is kind of a silly theory. Some people figured the A- in "Amazon" means "without," and the -ma- comes from the same root as the ma- in "mastectomy," but I never found that claim to be particularly credible.

[misslane]

Characters being victimized in comics is like... a slow Tuesday. Don't know why you're making it out to be some big shocking development. They spend far more panel time in some form of turmoil than they do being happy.

I'm not making Lois' victimization into a shocking development. What is shocking to me is that someone would have the guts to claim that a woman cannot be characterized as empowered in an issue that clearly shows Lois fighting back against her vicitimizer before choosing to use the scars he left on her to save the world from his evil schemes.

Ah, I see, so even though she spent the majority of the arc being victimized by a man and struggling to free herself from his control to no avail, it's still largely empowering because she was the one who caught on to The Twenty.

It's empowering because she was the first person to seek justice for Brainiac's original victims while also catching onto the beginnings of his current master plan. It's empowering because far from spending the majority of the arc being victimized, despite being in a coma, she managed to save Superman and Metropolis from Psycho Pirate's psionic attack. It's empowering because there were brief moments when Lois tried to break free and warn those around her (see: Lois warns Wonder Woman in Superman/Wonder Woman #10). It's empowering because this issue revealed that Lois saved her mind from total destruction because she never stopped fighting Brainiac's influence. It's empowering because Lois was only able to connect with Clark for a brief moment because she was fighting with all her might to break free. It's empowering because it was that split second reprieve that set the stage for Clark to use his Doomsday mist to burn away the mind control bots. And, finally, it's empowering because rather than slink away as a broken victim, Lois stood up, dusted herself off, and kept on fighting. Plus, she's still fighting off Brainiac in her mind.

So as Lana was the one who discovered the pattern in Brainiac's ships, that must have been a largely empowering issue for her, riiiiight?

I wouldn't say she was empowered via that discovery. I would say Lana's expertise and her discovery were proof of Lana's already existing empowerment.

His destructive mist was destroying the bots just fine, he thought about how much he enjoyed killing them, it's the reason given for why Brainiac couldn't control him. When a man steps in to finish the job for Lois, it doesn't undermine her "fortitude and agency" for the arc.

What? That's not what I said at all. I said that Lois participated in her own salvation because without the combination of her mental strength and the Doomsday mist, her mind would not have been saved.

So when a man decided to step in and vouch for Lana's mad engineering skillz, he wasn't invalidating her competency in the least, riiiiiight?

You're comparing apples and oranges here. I'm comparing an instance in which a man's efforts to save a woman would have been useless without the woman in question also fighting back. I'm talking about a collaborative effort. Steel being the final word on Lana's competence, however, was an example of a woman needing a man as the ultimate seal of approval.

Except, ultimately, Lois didn't liberate herself, a man did it for her and when it comes to stopping the scratches "at the corners of her mind" permanently, I'd be willing to bet that a man is going to have to do that for her as well.

Lois did work together with Clark to liberate herself. A man did not do it for her. Superman's Doomsday mist would have been ineffective if not for Lois' mental strength and mastery of her own psionic power. And, frankly, your speculation reeks of cynicism and bias.

Her arc involves spending the better part of three years suffering under the oppression of a man's thumb and the relative freedom she currently enjoys is due to the efforts of another man. Not only is this arc not problematic, but it's actually empowering for Lois.

Um, no. The three years I mentioned was how long Lois worked on The Twenty investigation. She's been dealing with her psionic infection for less than a year. During that time, however, Lois not only used her powers while comatose to save Superman and Metropolis from Psycho Pirate, but she also facilitated her own liberation by refusing to give up. Her commitment to fighting back while caged in her own body is what gave her the brief chance to connect with Superdoom. Keep in mind that Superman could not have saved Lois if not for the Doomsday infection that Brainiac orchestrated. It was the strength of Lois' mind and spirit that gave her the power to keep her mind in tact while the mind control bots burned away. Most of all, it was empowering for Lois to rebound from her victimization as a hopeful and effective force against her former master as a member of Superman's support team and through her continued efforts to keep Brainiac at bay in her own mind even ow. To show a victim refusing to be broken by her suffering is the ultimate empowerment.

So when Lana gets some back up from Steel, that is in no way problematic storytelling, riiiiiiight?

No, it's not problematic. It's only problematic if Lana doesn't need Steel's back up. Lana didn't need Steel to back her up when her competence was questioned.

Whether it's things like the Wondy/Lois fight having elements of friction involving men, or a man emphatically backing up Lana. You otherwise look sooooo hard for sexism in how you critique the way these characters are written that it's kind of amusing that Lois's arc isn't also on your hit list.

It was on my hit list. I've been criticizing this arc for months now. But it was Pak who redeemed it by writing a story that not only showed Lois had been fighting back the whole time, but also portrayed her as a collaborative agent in her own salvation and chose keep fighting rather than cower as a broken victim.

If you want to see her arc as empowering, then so it is, but you could just as easily look at it and see the sexism you usually do.

I have seen the sexism in her arc. I've pointed it out in the past, and I just today reiterated my disapproval of the drawn out nature of this arc as well as the ambiguity (via lack of Lois' point of view) which limited the amount of insight and depth we had for Lois' character. That said, it's understood that up until this point, Pak hasn't had a chance to really tackle Lois. He's the most talented writer on the Superman team. The true test of whether or not this arc for Lois would be redeemed rested on its resolution. In my opinion, Pak nailed it. He could have made her more passive and then shifted her totally off the stage once she regained control over her own mind, but he didn't.

If only you knew.

I know. The double standards when we compare how fans critique Lois overcoming her monster to Superman overcoming his are appallingly obvious and disheartening.

[Punisher007]

her boyfriend... and what? she doesn't has to be defined for it



humm? same thing. Just because Lois is a normal human she is Superman inferior?

for now I stand with MissLane, but I think it was far away from a perfect story empowering Lois. they should have done it showing she was struggling just like Superman.

WTH are you even talking about. Where are you getting that. I simply said that Diana should have gotten more focus in this given the context. It has nothing to do with her being "defined" by anything. And where did I EVER say that Lois was Superman's inferior, NOWHERE, that's where. Misslane was trying to argue that Superman being possessed by Doomsday is comparable to Lois being possessed by Brainiac. I was pointing out that Superman is regularly featured in multiple titles where he gets to be the hero. So this one storyline with him possessed isn't that hard to swallow. Lois, on the other hand, doesn't get nearly that much attention. It has nothing to do with her being "inferior" nor do I think that she is. It has to do with the fact that her biggest storyline in the New 52 thus far involves her being possessed by a villain and essentially used as a puppet to try and destroy the planet and then needing a man to help free her. I would have LOVED for her to play a major part in this event helping to free Superman or stopping Brainiac, but they decided to make her a mind-controlled puppet instead. That's my problem with it, she got the shaft in this storyline. Try reading what I say next time before jumping to ridiculous conclusions or questioning my motives next time. I don't appreciate being accused of hating Lois because other posters cannot be bothered to pay attention to what I'm saying.

[misslane]

Misslane was trying to argue that Superman being possessed by Doomsday is comparable to Lois being possessed by Brainiac. I was pointing out that Superman is regularly featured in multiple titles where he gets to be the hero. So this one storyline with him possessed isn't that hard to swallow. Lois, on the other hand, doesn't get nearly that much attention. It has nothing to do with her being "inferior" nor do I think that she is. It has to do with the fact that her biggest storyline in the New 52 thus far involves her being possessed by a villain and essentially used as a puppet to try and destroy the planet and then needing a man to help free her.

Superman being possessed by Doomsday is comparable to Lois being possessed by Brainiac in terms of the condition and battle both were in and had to fight. Where the difference existed was in how both of their stories were told. Superman, being the central protagonist, naturally got the most focus. Lois' point of view and experience did not get the same kind of in depth spotlight most likely because she is a supporting character, because the mystery had to endure for suspense, and because before the "Doomed" event only Lobdell had total control over the storyline. I can empathize with any frustration resulting from the prolonged possession and lack of point of view from Lois, but that wasn't what was being debated. What was being debated was whether or not Lois was empowered as a character. Empowerment isn't something that is dependent on narrative focus. It either happens or it doesn't.

If Lois Lane's biggest storyline in the New 52 was this Brainiac arc, then to judge her empowerment you have to consider everything that happened as part of that arc. It began nearly a year ago with the Superman Annual which was entirely focused on her. In it, we were shown Lois brilliantly and doggedly pursuing truth and justice for the victims of The Collector's first attack on Metropolis rumored to be a group of missing persons called The Twenty. Her journey as a psionically powered and handy tool for Brainiac began as a result of her pursuit. Therefore, the arc began by highlighting Lois' talents and significance, and by finally writing a piece about her experience (seen below from the Action Comics Annual), she is on track to not only finally providing closure to those whose loved ones in The Twenty were lost but also getting justice for Brainiac's evil deeds.

As the arc continued, Lois was in a coma. Yet, even then, the writers found a way to give Lois opportunities to shine. Firstly, there were two issues (seen here: Action Comics #24 and Superman #24) that showed Lois fighting to free her spirit from her comatose body so that she could use her acquired gifts, her self-sacrificing bravery, and her affection for Superman/Clark and the world to rescue Superman and save the world. Secondly, during her brief recovery period following Parasite's siphoning of her coma causing powers, Lois got an entire one shot devoted to her family background and her heroic efforts to protect her sister and her friends from a metamorphosing drug which threaded nicely into the themes of her upcoming possession. The actual Brainiac possession didn't officially begin until Superman #28 (February 2014), but only the early signs are shown in the issue where Lois is actually pretty cool as a journalist embedded with the police looking for a story; her acting as Brainiac's puppet didn't happen until a month later.

While I'm still disappointed that we weren't given more insight into what Lois was experiencing from her point of view during her possession, that doesn't mean that she wasn't empowered at various points including the current climax/conclusion. You say a man helped free Lois, and that's true. Superman did contribute to Lois' salvation. But Lois did too. By finally giving us a glimpse into Lois' head, Pak revealed that during those frustrating periods where we weren't getting focus on Lois' internal struggle, she was fighting against Brainiac as hard as she could. We saw a peek of that in Superman/Wonder Woman #10 when Lois warned Wonder Woman that Brainiac was going to attack her, and we saw it further when Lois tells Clark's manifestation in her mind that she had "cracked" it and had been able to call out to him so he could see the truth and use that knowledge to apply the Doomsday mist to the bots facilitating her mental imprisonment. Even then, we're told that what was done didn't completely solve the problem, as Lois tells us that Brainiac is still in her mind clawing to get out. It's very important to understand that Lois post-"cure" is, at every moment, actively fighting a mental battle against Brainiac's presence in her mind AND telepathically aiding the heroes with information and encouragement.

I would have LOVED for her to play a major part in this event helping to free Superman or stopping Brainiac, but they decided to make her a mind-controlled puppet instead. That's my problem with it, she got the shaft in this storyline.

Lois got the shaft in the boring middle, rising action portion, but to have such critical and profound moment in these issues has given it more weight and pathos which likely would have been dulled had it been written in the way you've described.

[dumbduck]

I agree with misslane on this one, regarding Lois/Clark mind control/ corrupted mind. It's not only that Supes has spent 4 months being defeated by the infection, even without the kryptonite cloud, but this has been done to death pre52. That corrupted by Circe x Diana fight was bad enough. Then a few years later Rucka had a brilliant idea for Sacrifice: Do exactly the same thing. Then in Rush he was mind-controled by Poison Ivy and Batman had to save him as well. I think I'm forgetting a few more.

Lobdell's Psi-war was bad enough. This weak minded/weak willed Supes was already corrupted after only a few days and doing 'drunken' calls to Lois and Cat and whinning to Diana when she found him. So far: 1 - Started becoming corrupted: Brought back by Diana. 2 - Almost killed Hessia - Brought back by Diana. 3 - Almost killed a village - Would have done it if the K-cloud wasn't removed.

The frequent times that Supes has been saved - By Diana, Batman, Lois, Lex - won't make the character be more relatable for people who don't like him. They'll keep on hating and display his defeats on their tumblrs and facebooks. Would have been cool to see Supes save himself like Kara did with the red ring. Like Batman and Wonder Woman are allowed to do by themselves repeatedly.

Supes is not allowed to go to Gotham and help Batman. Nor is he allowed to help or save Diana. Does there even exists a story where Supes goes to Diana's world and really helps her? The reverse of this - Batman and Wonder Woman frequently saving Supes - is all too common.

Pre-crisis Supes was not less (and not more) resistant to mind control than either Bats or Wondy. Now he is always the one needing to be saved. Freaking tiresome.

EDIT: About this being common place for heroes: Tell that to Soule. "Is love lost?" It's obvious what he is refering to: Clark was weak and Diana was almost forced to kill him. Rucka couldn't have done better.

[DochaDocha]

Supes is not allowed to go to Gotham and help Batman. Nor is he allowed to help or save Diana. Does there even exists a story where Supes goes to Diana's world and really helps her? The reverse of this - Batman and Wonder Woman frequently saving Supes - is all too common.

Trust me, these message boards end up becoming a better place if Superman doesn't have to pull Wonder Woman's bacon out of the fire...

You might as well ask a John Stewart fan to admit Hal is a better character...

[UltraWoman]

I think there are interesting contrasts to be made here. Lois as Supporting character/non-super in a universe of supers vs. Superman as central character/super with "super" support team. Lois as Damsel in Distress (capital Ds because the title hasn't been used yet but depending on how you define it, she is or she isn't in the Pak scene) vs. "just another individual in a sticky situation" being helped out.

Personally I'd like to hear more of the first version than the second.

[misslane]

I think there are interesting contrasts to be made here. Lois as Supporting character/non-super in a universe of supers vs. Superman as central character/super with "super" support team. Lois as Damsel in Distress (capital Ds because the title hasn't been used yet but depending on how you define it, she is or she isn't in the Pak scene) vs. "just another individual in a sticky situation" being helped out.

Personally I'd like to hear more of the first version than the second.

I have no idea what you mean here. You want to hear more discussion/debate about whether Lois was a Damsel in Distress? If so, you could have contributed your own thoughts on the matter, like how you define the term and how you feel she may or may not fit that description. Or did you mean something entirely different? Plus, I fail to see a real distinction between a damsel or person in distress and an individual getting helped out of a sticky situation. In other words, what are you really trying to say here, because it seems you're dancing around something.

[Blacksun]

I agree with misslane on this one, regarding Lois/Clark mind control/ corrupted mind. It's not only that Supes has spent 4 months being defeated by the infection, even without the kryptonite cloud, but this has been done to death pre52. That corrupted by Circe x Diana fight was bad enough. Then a few years later Rucka had a brilliant idea for Sacrifice: Do exactly the same thing. Then in Rush he was mind-controled by Poison Ivy and Batman had to save him as well. I think I'm forgetting a few more.

Lobdell's Psi-war was bad enough. This weak minded/weak willed Supes was already corrupted after only a few days and doing 'drunken' calls to Lois and Cat and whinning to Diana when she found him. So far: 1 - Started becoming corrupted: Brought back by Diana. 2 - Almost killed Hessia - Brought back by Diana. 3 - Almost killed a village - Would have done it if the K-cloud wasn't removed.

The frequent times that Supes has been saved - By Diana, Batman, Lois, Lex - won't make the character be more relatable for people who don't like him. They'll keep on hating and display his defeats on their tumblrs and facebooks. Would have been cool to see Supes save himself like Kara did with the red ring. Like Batman and Wonder Woman are allowed to do by themselves repeatedly.

Supes is not allowed to go to Gotham and help Batman. Nor is he allowed to help or save Diana. Does there even exists a story where Supes goes to Diana's world and really helps her? The reverse of this - Batman and Wonder Woman frequently saving Supes - is all too common.

Pre-crisis Supes was not less (and not more) resistant to mind control than either Bats or Wondy. Now he is always the one needing to be saved. Freaking tiresome.

EDIT: About this being common place for heroes: Tell that to Soule. "Is love lost?" It's obvious what he is refering to: Clark was weak and Diana was almost forced to kill him. Rucka couldn't have done better.

of course Rucka couldn't have sone better. his WW never tried to kill him, even with him almost beating her to death. she was trying to stop him. she was a mature woman not the teenage WW that almost kill superdoom crying. Of course Soule is a genius and can't do no wrong...

I think they were trying to do what Azz did with WW: Her good infuence make Gods, man-amazons and amazons all fight for her but he took many issues to do it. With superman the story isn't the same, it's more about protect the earth than about Superman. If it was like the moment from Death Of superman it could have worked.

The focus on Clark isn't helped, I barely saw stories focused on him. Like there is not build up for Clark kent being so important now

WTH are you even talking about. Where are you getting that. I simply said that Diana should have gotten more focus in this given the context. It has nothing to do with her being "defined" by anything. And where did I EVER say that Lois was Superman's inferior, NOWHERE, that's where. Misslane was trying to argue that Superman being possessed by Doomsday is comparable to Lois being possessed by Brainiac. I was pointing out that Superman is regularly featured in multiple titles where he gets to be the hero. So this one storyline with him possessed isn't that hard to swallow. Lois, on the other hand, doesn't get nearly that much attention. It has nothing to do with her being "inferior" nor do I think that she is. It has to do with the fact that her biggest storyline in the New 52 thus far involves her being possessed by a villain and essentially used as a puppet to try and destroy the planet and then needing a man to help free her. I would have LOVED for her to play a major part in this event helping to free Superman or stopping Brainiac, but they decided to make her a mind-controlled puppet instead. That's my problem with it, she got the shaft in this storyline. Try reading what I say next time before jumping to ridiculous conclusions or questioning my motives next time. I don't appreciate being accused of hating Lois because other posters cannot be bothered to pay attention to what I'm saying.

sorry, If i interpreted you wrong but stuff like this happens all times on boards.

Lois will never receive the same atention that superman, of course new 52 wento to far away with it. yes, I think it is crap that they never did a proper character arc for Lois, but I won't ignore the good outcome from this doomed xover. I even said that I hated seeing her mind controlled by brainiac, specially when the corben stuff was brought. I still hate because it was poorly written. It take some merit of her development, but not all of it. She is in the right side, where she belongs.

WW was already dragged too much on this crap, much times at the expense of Lois. so no, s

[The Beast]

Pretty much what these people said.

The annuals had some good moments, and its nice to see this storyline finally move forward in a meaningful way, but damn. I long ago lost interest in the Doomed story, despite it being an interesting premise and about the coolest (only) thing done with Doomsday since Superman #75. But come on guys, this entire thing reeks of Lobdell's heavy handed crossover structure; drawn out yet somehow ultimately rushed, lagging in the middle only to come up with instant win scenarios from nowhere at the end....Pak and Soule are better writers than this and Im long past ready to see them return to their own titles and quality levels.

Well said, I couldn't agree more. I swore I learned my lesson after H'El on earth but here I am again. Shame on me...

[dumbduck]

Trust me, these message boards end up becoming a better place if Superman doesn't have to pull Wonder Woman's bacon out of the fire...

You might as well ask a John Stewart fan to admit Hal is a better character...

Yeah well, I know, LOL. I'd be satisfied with anything. Help in rebuilding Themyscira. Rearrange her furniture. Do her laundry. Give her a foot massage. Anything? Please? Will Wondy's fans scream sexism if he gives her a foot massage?

But really, that's a big problem.

Writer's overall attitude towards Superman - "We need to break him. Deconstruct him. Drag him in the mud. What? It's been done to death for the last 3 decades? I don't care. When *I* do it it will be edgy and trendy and new!"

Writer's overall attitude towards Wonder Woman - "She is a strong, smart, independent woman who needs help from none and has to be invincible/awesome/flawless 24/7 with a fiery spirit of victory or her fans will eat us alive!"

Result - Supes is toast. No character can survive this imbalance.