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  1. #1
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Default What if Sins' Past was written as it was originally intended?

    Ugh, sorry if this brings back some bad memories and makes you feel disgusted.

    But anyways, I remember that the original plan for Sins' Past was that Sarah and Gabriel were going to be Peter's kids. The execs thought that would make Peter seem too old, so they stopped that one right there. However, the alternative ended up being infinitely worse, as they ended up being Norman's kids instead and frankly that just makes my stomach turn. It was so bad that everyone, right up to JMS himself, hates it. JMS is so ashamed of the final product, in fact, that he wishes it could be retconned out of existence.

    So, in an alternate universe where Peter unknowingly had Sarah and Gabriel with Gwen, what changes?

    Just wondering.

  2. #2
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    The original plan was stupid as hell too. Just a little less offensive, because it wasn’t Norman. But it’s still saddling Peter with two accelerated aged adult twins. Not everything JMS touched was gold.

    It would’ve been retconned with OMD/BND if it came to pass

  3. #3
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Was the Sins' Past we got retconned? I mean, JMS wishes it was retconned, but idk if it was.

    Yeah, it's hard to imagine Peter as a dad especially in this context. Honestly, it was just a bad idea all around.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Ugh, sorry if this brings back some bad memories and makes you feel disgusted.

    But anyways, I remember that the original plan for Sins' Past was that Sarah and Gabriel were going to be Peter's kids. The execs thought that would make Peter seem too old, so they stopped that one right there. However, the alternative ended up being infinitely worse, as they ended up being Norman's kids instead and frankly that just makes my stomach turn. It was so bad that everyone, right up to JMS himself, hates it. JMS is so ashamed of the final product, in fact, that he wishes it could be retconned out of existence.

    So, in an alternate universe where Peter unknowingly had Sarah and Gabriel with Gwen, what changes?

    Just wondering.
    We might do well to ask JMS that. The funny thing is JMS is hardly ever interviewed about his run on Spider-Man in detail aside from talking smack about OMD or talking about The Conversation, and the 9/11 issue. I think the storyline would have been vastly different. Obviously if Gwen had Peter's kids, they might have had Spider-powers. So that might have brought Morlun into the mix. I think the minute JMS decided to make Norman Gwen's babydaddy that changed the entire storyline so the kids became Goblins instead.

    I still think that Sins' Past would have sucked even then. For one thing, if Gwen had Peter's children secretly in London or whatever...why did she never tell Peter about it in the 20 issues or so between that and her death? Say what you want, her motivation for hiding the fact that she had kids with Norman to Peter at least made sense in the "I cheated on you and got knocked up" but having a loving supporting boyfriend who she's already planning to marry and so on, and then after getting impregnated she decides to hide it from him. That literally makes no sense.

    But say that JMS fixes all that. Say that he finds a dramatic solution to those issues. Where does that leave us? It leaves Peter and MJ becoming parents to those kids right...or does it have Peter having his own Kylo Ren, i.e. his son the archnemesis and his daughter who defends Daddy. Do the kids hate MJ for taking the place of their mother and so on. I don't know. As an idea it doesn't have a great deal of potential.

  5. #5
    Fantastic Member Hugo Strange's Avatar
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    It would be less suck.

  6. #6
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    There's no way Marvel would have stuck to the idea of Spider-Man as the father of two long-lost children who are now adults. It would have been retconned out within a year or two.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Ugh, sorry if this brings back some bad memories and makes you feel disgusted.

    But anyways, I remember that the original plan for Sins' Past was that Sarah and Gabriel were going to be Peter's kids. The execs thought that would make Peter seem too old, so they stopped that one right there. However, the alternative ended up being infinitely worse, as they ended up being Norman's kids instead and frankly that just makes my stomach turn. It was so bad that everyone, right up to JMS himself, hates it. JMS is so ashamed of the final product, in fact, that he wishes it could be retconned out of existence.

    So, in an alternate universe where Peter unknowingly had Sarah and Gabriel with Gwen, what changes?

    Just wondering.
    . The concept of Sarah and Gabriel being Peter's kids sounds even worse then being Gwen's. One thing that stands out about the comic, is how it got greenlit in the first place. When the original idea was approached ( and rejected), it should have been thrown in the trash, and never heard from again ( except the Title Sins Past which is brilliant and could be used in another comic). Think about it: Marvel KNEW it was a bad idea. Even when Clone Saga and OMD-BND were approved, Marvel had no idea those Arcs would be doomed to failure. One comparison is the newest Ghostbusters movie. Think about it: A female Ghostbusters cast and Paul Feig Directing. Sony had to know it would be a bomb, and so it was ( just like Sins Past).
    Last edited by NC_Yankee; 11-16-2019 at 07:51 AM.

  8. #8
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Why didn't they just go with them being Harry's kids? Why choose Norman of all people, might as well have said they were JJJ's

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Why didn't they just go with them being Harry's kids?
    Even less believable. Harry and Gwen were entirely platonic at that point. Characterisation-wise, in the Lee-Romita and Conway era, and actually the entire period until his death, Harry was jealous of Peter because he seemed to "steal his girlfriends" whether it was Gwen (they dated and she preferred Peter over him), or MJ (who was obviously attracted to Peter and flirted with him while still being friends with Harry). IF Gwen cheated on Peter with him, it would totally change the character dynamics since Harry would now have "I slept with your girl" swagger. It would also be something that Harry would not shy about bragging especially if he had a LSD fueled goblin breakdown. It wouldn't be in character for him to hide that.

    ...might as well have said they were JJJ's
    THAT IS BOTH SLANDER AND LIBEL. J. Jonah Jameson is a perfect gentleman thankyouverymuch.


    The truth is Sins' Past as a story just doesn't work or make sense in the established 616 Continuity of Spider-Man. Gwen Stacy giving birth just doesn't make sense from a character perspective. I mean think about it, Gwen had kids in London, and a new mother just abandons her kids for caregivers and then goes back to New York to...flirt with Flash again in an involuntary love triangle, to harass Aunt May and also accompany Peter as a bikini model to shoot pictures in Roy Thomas' nonsensical Savage Land story. Those were the stories Gwen was involved in the period after her return from London in ASM#98 It just doesn't make any lick of sense to imagine the Gwen of that story to be a young single mother of two. She basically abandoned her children in their early days. In other words, she's a deadbeat.

    In the interests of fair play, this is also my issue with Teresa Parker. If Teresa really is Peter's sister, then Richard and Mary Parker basically left Ben and May, and young Peter in dark about their sister and made no preparations for guardianship for their girl which they did with Peter. It makes them look bad. And if it turns out that Ben and May knew...well they look like jerks now for keeping that from Peter.

    I personally think Quesada and others at Marvel should have given a hard veto on this concept. Jim Shooter did that to Mantlo when he pitched his Felicia babymama story, which proves why he's the greater EIC.

    Still at the end of the day...JMS bears ultimate blame for this story. He's one of the best Spider-Man writers but Sins' Past is the outstanding example of a talented writer doing a bad story. It's sad, because Sins' Past (ASM#509-512) is the first issue he did after JRJR ended his run. There's not a single bad issue in JMS' run with JRJR (which ran for some 38 issues i.e. ASM#30-58 (Vol.2) and then ASM#500-508) and there would be excellent issues after Sins' Past but it kind of did lower his run in estimation I think, at least for a little while.

  10. #10

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    The concept was fatally flawed.

    Artificial aging has icky implications, and the connection to a real disease that results in children dying of heart attacks was a poor decision.

  11. #11
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post

    THAT IS BOTH SLANDER AND LIBEL. J. Jonah Jameson is a perfect gentleman thankyouverymuch.
    LOL

    The reason I say Harry, it's more believable then Normy, it can be explained away by Harry and Gwen leaving a party a bit tipsy and things went too far.

    Storywise it would be a bit easier to follow; but the story itself, at the end of the day, should never haven left the conceptual stage.

    I agree that JMS & JRJR portion of the run was pretty amazing

  12. #12
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    A lot of Gwen talk around here lately huh?

    Honestly, if the original idea would make a better story than "Norman impregnated Gwen", then I imagine it'd only be marginally better, the equivalent of saying one piece of shit smells better than another.

  13. #13
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    This was a poorly used idea. I mean, there was a more interesting way to use this plot.

    In my version, Sarah and Gabriel were actually Gwen and Peter's "children", but not in the traditional way. Using the cloning technology of the Jackal, Norman Osborn could have taken samples of Gwen and Peter's DNA to create their "children" as they were clones. And similar to how Wolverine was "programmed" with fake memories by Weapon X, they could have used the same tech on the twins to give them false memories while they aged to madurity.

    Doesn't sound better this way?

  14. #14
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    As much as I love JMS, whichever way it fell this idea was a dud.

    Gwen being pregnant (and the longstanding lie) makes little sense, magically aged children is a weak way of forcing the characters into existence for the story, those children hating Peter is a poor source of conflict, the idea of a child's mind in an adult body is icky. I swear, it's like the starting point was the "Guess Who?" unmasking cover and everything worked backwards from there.

    Seriously, they should have just been clones. It gets the same results and is far less damaging.
    Just. Be. Nice.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    As much as I love JMS, whichever way it fell this idea was a dud.

    Gwen being pregnant (and the longstanding lie) makes little sense, magically aged children is a weak way of forcing the characters into existence for the story, those children hating Peter is a poor source of conflict, the idea of a child's mind in an adult body is icky. I swear, it's like the starting point was the "Guess Who?" unmasking cover and everything worked backwards from there.

    Seriously, they should have just been clones. It gets the same results and is far less damaging.
    I did not like Sins Past ( except for the Title which I really like), but adding Clones to the equation ( like having the kids Peter's) makes it even worse. I am of the opinion that words that do not belong together are Spider-Man and Clones. The original Clone Saga which is Number 3 in my Spider-Man hate list ( right behind Silk ( Number 2) and OMD-BND ( Number 1). The best solution should have been what I mentioned before: Throw the story in the trash, and save the title for another story.

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