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  1. #31
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Bringing this up again because I was wondering something. I've learned that in the original game, they heavily considered making the Black Suit an unlockable, but felt it should have a bigger role than that, saving it for the sequel. As we saw at the end of the game, Oscorp as the Symbiote. Do you think the game will feature the Symbiote as a gameplay mechanic?

    I'm imagining the idea that the Symbiote gets to Peter, forming the Black Suit. The idea is that it enhances his strength and gives him more powerful moves, maybe even new web-moves you can do, but it also slows him down (kinda like in Web of Shadows). So the idea is that you can choose normal Peter with an jack of all trades set who relies more on agility, or the Black Suit, which makes you stronger but slower.

    In fact, if they adapt elements of the Alien Costume Saga, the cover should be a homage to this:



    Not sure if they should go with the idea that it makes Peter angrier and an asshole (the popular portrayal) or takes Peter out for a joyride but otherwise doesn't amplify his emotions (the original portrayal).

    What do you guys think?

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    I'm imagining the idea that the Symbiote gets to Peter, forming the Black Suit. The idea is that it enhances his strength and gives him more powerful moves, maybe even new web-moves you can do, but it also slows him down (kinda like in Web of Shadows). So the idea is that you can choose normal Peter with an jack of all trades set who relies more on agility, or the Black Suit, which makes you stronger but slower.
    This was actually done in the game Spider-Man Web of Shadows. Using the Spider-Man suit and the Symbiote suit creates a branching path that leads to different endgames and different abilities.

    What do you guys think?
    Truly adapting the symbiote to videogames is really hard.

    To do it, to truly convey the sense of the symbiote, you need to create constraints for the player playing in the red suit. Then when Peter gets the black suit he is "god mode" or close to it, and then in the finale he loses that and goes back to red suit and all the constraints he had. As gameplay it would run counter to the idea of "progression", of leveling up, of getting stronger the more you play and so on.

    The way Web of Shadows did it was that you could choose between the black suit and the red-and-blue, so you had progression as both, and slight differences and ultimately you got a bad ending for using the black suit and a happy ending using the red-and-blue. As a storytelling gimmick it's cheap but as gameplay it's satisfying in that as you play the better you get and enemies that you struggled with earlier aren't super-hard when you leveled up.

    The other issue with the Insomniac PS4 game is that normal red-and-blue Peter already has unlimited webbing. Sure combos and other stuff have limited use and need time to replenish but basically Peter has unlimited webbing, so adding the alien costume isn't going to make too much of a difference since the main advantage (unlimited webs) is gone.

  3. #33
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    That's a good point. Web of Shadows was a decent game, but I felt it could've been better. Plus, the Black Suit would be hard to balance because it'd feel cheap and counter to the gameplay to grow it's new powers and use, only to lose all of it in the end because of the plot. I feel they have something planned for it given how they cut it from PS4 so as to introduce it in a big role later, just not sure what.

    On a similar note, do you predict Miles Morales is going to a full-on character this time? Not just stealth sections, but as Spider-Man PS4 clearly shows his progression into his own superhero, it makes sense.

    From a gameplay standpoint, I'm guessing he won't have as many web moves in his attacks. He'll rely more on bio-electrical powers to create different combos and enhance his strikes. He's also weaker, translating the comics where Miles isn't as strong as Peter, thus his baseline attacks don't have quite the punch to them, encouraging the player to use electric attacks as a power enhancement. He can also use invisibility to get the drop on his enemies. It'd make sense, and would be an easy differentiation.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    On a similar note, do you predict Miles Morales is going to a full-on character this time?
    That's one thing I am absolutely sure about. Miles will be a second Spider-Man you can play in the sequel. How they do it varies. My guess is it could be something like Assassin's Creed Syndicate where you could toggle between a male and female player character in the open world and do all side-missions per your chosen character, but at the same time there are discreet missions in the story that one particular character can do.

    So in free roam, you can toggle between Peter and Miles and maybe do side missions with him, and there is going to be a specific story strand just with Miles, and just with Peter. The only question is if you do Peter with the Symbiote, that would take attention away from Miles. Who knows maybe the sequel adapts Spider-Island and MJ also gets powers so you do missions with her using spider-powers.

    Alternatively if they are doing Harry Venom, maybe Harry Venom becomes the third playable character. Harry Osborn was an optional playable character (as Green Goblin) in the first Spider-Man 1 movie-game. A playable Venom was there in the Ultimate Spider-Man game where you toggled between Peter as USM and Brock as Ultimate Venom.

    I feel they have something planned for it given how they cut it from PS4 so as to introduce it in a big role later, just not sure what.
    My guess is they might try and set up Red Goblin. And in the finale of Red Goblin Peter bonds again with the black symbiote. So that might be how they do it. Single-use big story sequence boss fight.

    However, who knows, maybe they will save the Symbiote stuff for a third game. I mean Batman Arkham Asylum set up some stuff for the sequel Arkham City (an entire secret room) but the positive reception that Scarecrow had made Rocksteady bench him for the sequel and bring him back in a big way for the third game. So maybe the Symbiote stuff is saved for the third game, who knows.

    And then it can be some optional DLC or skin thing, and you get the playable symbiote for a playthrough if you do NG+ on hard or something like that.

    The problem with video games is that Spider-Man usually fights with just his powers and web-fluid, him having gadgets and stuff is counter to that, and the thing about Peter in the comics he always loses any external advantages he gets. The Iron Spider suit, Peter lost that and used the cloth costume in Back in Black. All that Horizon Labs junk, Peter lost that. The Parker Industries junk, Peter lost that. The original alien symbiote, Peter had that for a few issues and then lost it. He's a character who is not supposed to have extra power boosts beyond the spider-bite. But the nature of gameplay and all that, especially for a mainstream licensed IP like Spider-Man, is to give gamers progression and value for time...you can't do a superhero Dark Souls exactly.

  5. #35
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think the Black Suit and Venom are going to be major components of the sequel. I doubt we are going to see the Red Goblin show up because that would already be getting into Carnage.

    I think Miles will definitely be playable and might have his own missions (probably hunting Mr. Negative). I think they'll emphasize his powers through the stealth gameplay and him needing his venom powers to make up for not being as strong as Peter or having all the gadgets.

    I expect maybe a 30/70 split between playing Miles and Peter in the game since the game shows they will shift the playable character at certain points in the game.

  6. #36
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    I also predict Norman Osborn will step up as the main villain, finally becoming the Green Goblin. I can see him alternating between Goblin states and Osborn, as he becomes a major player villain. The final battle could be between Spider-Man and Goblin, in an epic showdown that takes place all across NYC. Not sure what could be the personal stake of Goblin to become Spidey's greatest enemy, because this version while not good isn't as bad as the comic counterpart. An idea is that he could fail to save Harry because the Symbiote broke out in some accident, before bonding to Peter, and thus giving him a personal grudge combined with his insanity when he learns Spidey's secret identity.

    Anyways, there's a leak making waves that I found by Google. For those interested:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeaks...s_spiderman_2/

    These are some of the things I have heard about Marvels Spider-Man 2 from a source I have close to insomniac games. The target is Holiday 2021 with a reveal this year. (Don’t know when, Sony is doing things different this year). The games open world Manhattan area will be a built off the first game. Expanded with the added renditions of a few boroughs like Queens and Brooklyn. Also, the game will take course over a portion of the winter time.

    Story details are sparse on my side but Oscorp will be a major player in this game, similar to the first. I heard something about “Cloning” playing a role in the game. The game will also hint towards a larger Marvel Universe out there. Spider-Mans rogues gallery expands in this game with new villains such as Venom, Green Goblin, Carnage Mysterio, the lizard, Cardiac and a few more. Miles is integral to the story being Peters Spider-Man in training. Similar to the first, Miles will have dedicated sections throughout the game but unlike Peter, he posses slightly different powers and fighting style. Just to emphasize though, Peter Parker is the main focus. Peters supporting cast returns from the first game with members being Flash Thompson, Harry Osborn, Ben Urich, Aaron Davis, Eddie Brock and more. Diving into some gameplay elements, Insomniac is adding new mechanics to the open world.

    Early in development is a “Diablo” esque dungeons mechanic, for randomized crimes. Spawning in different types of crimes in different situations with randomized encounters. For example, a bank Robbery might occur, but it will differ in enemy placement, different type of combat encounter (stealth or traditional combat), different types of enemies, different combat layout and mini objectives etc. This will be featured all throughout the games crime system. Varying each encounter for a high replay-ability. These are a few more things I am hearing about the game but unable to verify at the moment. As a side note, major engine work is being done and Insomniac is adopting more technological advances. One being Photogrammetry.

    Edit: just to add, don’t expect this game to follow the comics 100% through the way. Like the first, they will take creative liberties with the game and it’s characters
    Sounds cool enough. The idea of keeping Manhattan but expanding the map to include more of NYC sounds great. That'd be quite interesting if they're going to adapt some elements of the Clone Saga, hope they can pull it off. I'd be interested if the game also introduces Ben Reilly and Kaine Parker based on this. I also wonder what it means if they're "hinting towards a larger Marvel Universe". Does that mean we could expect more non-Spider characters? PS4 only had Taskmaster and outside of that it was mainly scenery, not that I mind because the story stood on its own. Not sure how they can hint more without actually featuring more characters.

    Wouldn't mind Daredevil myself.

    We might get an announcement sometime in February, where Sony is set to officially unveil the PS5. The timing would be too good if it's releasing in 2021, so I hope it happens.
    Last edited by Hybrid; 01-26-2020 at 11:13 AM.

  7. #37
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    We're definitely getting The Goblin at some point. They teased his tech in the first game.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Yeah the Insominac sequel game will definitely be a PS5 game and exclusive, to help sell the new console.

    Spider-Man PS4 was the biggest game of that year and was a late killer app for PS4 in the console cycle, so no way does Sony upset the apple-cart.

    As for that leak, that sounds plausible.

  9. #39
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I wouldn't say Harry really has the "suit" since the Symbiote seems to be more like a cocoon that's keeping him alive at this point, but I figure they'll find some way where it latches onto Peter and we can play with the Black Suit.
    (2 months later )

    If the symbiote is what's keeping him alive the begin with, it's unlikely it'll be removed from him for Peter to use it, specially if Peter never used the symbiote, it wouldn't have much of a reason to abandon Harry to go for Peter, unless the suit wants a healthier host I guess...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornbread11 View Post
    3. More obscure villains like the spot, big wheel, speed demon, the beetle, the thousand and etc
    Thousand would be a surprised to be used in any medium lol.

    I have my doubts about him showing up though, he's really, really creepy, doesn't look fitting for the kind of setting PS4 Spidey has.

    6. Gwen Stacy appears as mile’s class mate and she eventually learns his secret, has side stealth missions, and eventually gets bitten by a oscorp spider like miles. Ending sets her up for training by peter leading her to become spidergwen later on in another installment or a dlc story.
    Eh, would rather avoid stealth altogether, it was rather mediocre, plus Gwen having stealth sections and actively helping out Miles could end up making her "Miles' MJ".

    Of course, she could still be her own character even with those, but I think it'd be better to avoid such similarities to begin with.


    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    This was actually done in the game Spider-Man Web of Shadows. Using the Spider-Man suit and the Symbiote suit creates a branching path that leads to different endgames and different abilities.
    You could get all the habilities of both suits regardless of the path you made, the choices don't interfere with that.

    Although in the very last part of the game, you did lose one of the suits based on your choices.

    WoS also had "exclusive" partners for the kind of choices you made, and depending on your choices, you could lose some, like ripping Wolverine in half makes him unavailable, and not giving Felicia the symbiote.

    Truly adapting the symbiote to videogames is really hard.

    To do it, to truly convey the sense of the symbiote, you need to create constraints for the player playing in the red suit. Then when Peter gets the black suit he is "god mode" or close to it, and then in the finale he loses that and goes back to red suit and all the constraints he had. As gameplay it would run counter to the idea of "progression", of leveling up, of getting stronger the more you play and so on.

    The way Web of Shadows did it was that you could choose between the black suit and the red-and-blue, so you had progression as both, and slight differences and ultimately you got a bad ending for using the black suit and a happy ending using the red-and-blue. As a storytelling gimmick it's cheap but as gameplay it's satisfying in that as you play the better you get and enemies that you struggled with earlier aren't super-hard when you leveled up.

    The other issue with the Insomniac PS4 game is that normal red-and-blue Peter already has unlimited webbing. Sure combos and other stuff have limited use and need time to replenish but basically Peter has unlimited webbing, so adding the alien costume isn't going to make too much of a difference since the main advantage (unlimited webs) is gone.
    I mean, if the black suit were to be adapted "properly", then it should just be the same Peter, but stronger and with new powers, but if the point of the game is the duality of both suits, then it has to be like WoS, where the suit gets more "symbiote-like" habilities.

    Although, PS4 Spidey could do it differently by doing something like, removing the gadgets when you have the suit, to instead have symbiote exclusive powers, that way both would be different like in WoS, but in a different way, since what WoS did was change the kind of physical attacks they have, but removing gadgets would mean that the suit would need some good new moves because gadgets make Peter really flexible, by allowing him to be kind of a zoner by using spider bots, playing safe by using that anti-gravity tech, just knocking down everyone from a building with shocker blasts, etc, so the suit would need some good exclusive moves to compensate for that, could be interesting.

  10. #40
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    (2 months later )

    If the symbiote is what's keeping him alive the begin with, it's unlikely it'll be removed from him for Peter to use it, specially if Peter never used the symbiote, it wouldn't have much of a reason to abandon Harry to go for Peter, unless the suit wants a healthier host I guess...
    I don't see it willingly removed, but it would probably cause drama if Peter ends up with the Symbiote and Harry needs it to survive, but Peter has to grapple with the power and corrosive nature of the Black Suit on-top of that.

  11. #41
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't see it willingly removed, but it would probably cause drama if Peter ends up with the Symbiote and Harry needs it to survive, but Peter has to grapple with the power and corrosive nature of the Black Suit on-top of that.
    I only really see it working if Peter didn't know the symbiote is what Harry's using to survive, because the symbiote's influence basically makes Peter do worse versions of his default actions, and he notices something is up when he goes too far, if he has a symbiote he knows Harry needs to survive, he would have no reason to hesitate to remove it.

    Althought it could bring an interesting situation, Peter learning what the symbiote does, wanting to remove it, but having some doubts if it should be returned to Harry, because on one hand, it can corrupt people, on the other, it's what Harry needs to stay alive.

  12. #42
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I only really see it working if Peter didn't know the symbiote is what Harry's using to survive, because the symbiote's influence basically makes Peter do worse versions of his default actions, and he notices something is up when he goes too far, if he has a symbiote he knows Harry needs to survive, he would have no reason to hesitate to remove it.

    Althought it could bring an interesting situation, Peter learning what the symbiote does, wanting to remove it, but having some doubts if it should be returned to Harry, because on one hand, it can corrupt people, on the other, it's what Harry needs to stay alive.
    There are probably various ways they can make it work, but I think it's all going to fulfill the purpose of making the Black Suit playable.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    The other problem with symbiotes in general is that...it tends to take over the plot. When you introduce a symbiote into a story, it tends to become the main story and everything centers around it, so everything is tied to symbiotes and so on.
    -- Take the 2000 Activision game where you have a symbiote virus that makes everyone symbiotes, and in the finale you fight Carnage, and then Ock fused with Carnage.
    -- The Web of Shadows game.
    -- The Ultimate Spider-Man game.

    That's just the 3D era but it's a sizable number of games where symbiotes and symbiote-users and infectees form the central focus of the games. The PS4 game will add to the pile I think.

    It's just that it's hard to do a lot of other parts of the Spider-Man mythos with the symbiotes around. The main thing about the first PS4 Insomniac game is that it had a narrative of a lot of independent stories coalescing together, and that allowed Spider-Man to interact with different parts of his mythos. Like it starts with Spidey versus Kingpin, moves to Spidey versus Mr. Negative for most of the middle-part of the game, and then you have Doctor Octopus and the Sinister Six. The plot develops organically and it allows them to breathe. The Side missions have Tombstone and Screwball, and the DLC has Hammerhead and Wraith.

    Whereas if you include Symbiotes and stuff, you are gonna have fights with say, Mr. Negative-Venom, Scorpion-Venom*, Electro-Carnage and so on.



    * And yeah, I know Scorpion Venom has precedence in comics

  14. #44
    iMan 42s
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    Thought crosses my mind but symbiotes and Mr.Negative = Anti-Venom.

    So what if that's really what it comes down to. Harry is sick and Peter somehow ends up with the cure in the form of Anti-Venom. The cure will save Harry but simply using Anti-Venom will de-power Peter. Peter uses the suit on Harry with it de-powering himself and then one of three scenarios occur.

    1.) Endgame results in Peter being de-powered meaning we use what's left of the Anti-Venom suit assuming we haven't 100% the game.
    2.) Peter is de-powered and no longer has the suit making Miles playable in the game's aftermath.
    3.) The game refreshes to just before the Peter loses his powers
    -----------------------------------
    For anyone that needs to know why OMD is awful please search the internet for Linkara' s video's specifically his One more day review or his One more day Analysis.

  15. #45
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    There are probably various ways they can make it work, but I think it's all going to fulfill the purpose of making the Black Suit playable.
    Yeah, probably, but since Harry has what's probably it, I'm just wondering how Peter would manage to get it.

    Hopefully they don't do something Peter having one symbiote, Harry having another, would somewhat cheapen it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The other problem with symbiotes in general is that...it tends to take over the plot. When you introduce a symbiote into a story, it tends to become the main story and everything centers around it, so everything is tied to symbiotes and so on.
    -- Take the 2000 Activision game where you have a symbiote virus that makes everyone symbiotes, and in the finale you fight Carnage, and then Ock fused with Carnage.
    -- The Web of Shadows game.
    -- The Ultimate Spider-Man game.

    That's just the 3D era but it's a sizable number of games where symbiotes and symbiote-users and infectees form the central focus of the games. The PS4 game will add to the pile I think.

    It's just that it's hard to do a lot of other parts of the Spider-Man mythos with the symbiotes around. The main thing about the first PS4 Insomniac game is that it had a narrative of a lot of independent stories coalescing together, and that allowed Spider-Man to interact with different parts of his mythos. Like it starts with Spidey versus Kingpin, moves to Spidey versus Mr. Negative for most of the middle-part of the game, and then you have Doctor Octopus and the Sinister Six. The plot develops organically and it allows them to breathe. The Side missions have Tombstone and Screwball, and the DLC has Hammerhead and Wraith.

    Whereas if you include Symbiotes and stuff, you are gonna have fights with say, Mr. Negative-Venom, Scorpion-Venom*, Electro-Carnage and so on.



    * And yeah, I know Scorpion Venom has precedence in comics
    USM is less about symbiotes overall at least, while Venom is there as a playable character, it's more about the villains wanting him, and and the story is still mostly about Peter, and while symbiotes somewhat took over when Carnage showed up, it was minor, and even then, he didn't take over the plot on the level PSX Spidey did.

    And while WoS did have the symbiotes taking over the plot, it started with Spidey dealing with gang bangers, to then dealings with Fisk, until symbiotes suddenly took over.

    Both show that while symbiotes are important to Spider-Man's mythos, it doesn't mean there's no room for anything else, if anything, if the next game has symbiotes and it follows the patterns you mentioned in PS4 Spidey, then symbiotes would only become the main threat at the end of the game, like how Otto only becomes the main active threat at the very end.

    Oh yeah, and one thing that I remembered thinking about, is that the game could have the possibility of failing.

    Part of the point of Spider-Man is that he doesn't always win, sometimes he gets his ass handed to him and he has to live with the consequences in case he can't solve it later, so what I'm suggesting is that, in some stuff, the player could fail, but not get a game over from it, so later you can solve it, or not and have to deal with it, and in the second case, it could have consequences you wouldn't expect.

    Of course, implementing this would be a headache, but I think it'd be interesting to implement something so important about Spidey as a mechanic, and it could even make the player understand the frustration of being Spider-Man by making the player's own competence have consequences, as long as it doesn't go too far, 'cause while a certain level of frustation could be interesting, it can't be on the obnoxious level the comics can reach, bad enough to just read it, imagine playing that lol.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 01-26-2020 at 07:01 PM.

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