Wonder Woman Mission

[Ascended]

I tend to think that Diana's mission is specific despite being far-reaching; not just "spreading peace and love" or "hunting down magical threats" but something that isn't so vague or open-ended.

She's sent to Man's World to spread the Amazon philosophy. She's here to save us from ourselves, and will prove through her actions and arguments that the Amazon way is superior and worthy of adopting on a global scale. She's got a clear goal with clear objectives, which helps set her apart from her peers, most of whom are engaged in a nebulous never ending battle, who have no real plan or goals beyond the hope that their actions somehow inspire others to be better people (and they rarely define what that even means, as well).

Now, doing stuff like removing Ares' influence from man, yeah that's all great as far as being part of how Diana will achieve her mission, but I don't think that's the end game; it's just a step along the way.

It's a political motivation, and one that I don't think can actually be achieved. The whole world isn't going to embrace the Amazon way of life no matter how heroic Diana is, how well she argues the merits of her philosophy, or how many Crisis events she stops. I mean, "submitting to a loving authority" isn't something I'm willing to do, personally. The closest I come is ensuring my wife is happy and satisfied and has what she needs and wants. But I'll burn before I trust a politician any further than I can physically throw them. And I suspect more people around the world would agree with me than with Diana on this.

I think this adds a lot to Diana's narrative. Once she's around for a bit, she'd start to realize that her mission isn't going to be accomplished easily, if it can be accomplished at all, and she may find that certain aspects of Man's World are just as good, perhaps even better, than her own culture's. I mean, ice cream am I right? Yeah, there's plenty of great stuff from the Amazon philosophy all of us *should* try to emulate, but adopt it completely? Probably not. So there's inner conflict to play with; Diana's trying to fulfill a mission she's honor bound to accomplish, but she knows it's impossible and maybe doesn't even want to see it done completely (though she'd recognize that we could do with adopting at least parts of her philosophy). It provides conflict with the Amazons and the gods, as they get impatient and bitch about Diana not getting the job done fast enough, perhaps wondering if she was the wrong choice for the role. Not to mention various governments who might consider Diana trying to "convert" the population borderline treason. And it makes Wonder Woman more unique among her peers; while Barry Allen is just hoping he somehow makes Central City a nicer place, Diana is writing books, making public appearances, and pushing/supporting political policy.

[kjn]

It's a political motivation, and one that I don't think can actually be achieved. The whole world isn't going to embrace the Amazon way of life no matter how heroic Diana is, how well she argues the merits of her philosophy, or how many Crisis events she stops. I mean, "submitting to a loving authority" isn't something I'm willing to do, personally. The closest I come is ensuring my wife is happy and satisfied and has what she needs and wants. But I'll burn before I trust a politician any further than I can physically throw them. And I suspect more people around the world would agree with me than with Diana on this.

A lot of this boils down to how one views the Amazons, and their role in world history. I have my own idea that they should be nymphs of civilisation, and were humanity's first guides and teachers.

Seen from that angle, there should be a lot that they could teach us still.

I think that such an approach would fare a lot better in actually critiquing and being in dialogue with Marston's Amazons than anything later writers have accomplished. But it'd require some serious world-building of a near-utopic society, and a readiness to critique our world as well.

One thought I've had myself, after seeing how Morrison had Diana handle a question about trans women and the Amazons, was to craft a story involving the Amazons and the original Achilles—who'd be a trans woman and either an Amazon or the daughter of an Amazon, and told as a secret history of the Iliad. There are doubtless other good options.

[Ascended]

A lot of this boils down to how one views the Amazons, and their role in world history. I have my own idea that they should be nymphs of civilisation, and were humanity's first guides and teachers.

Seen from that angle, there should be a lot that they could teach us still.

Oh, I agree with the notion of the Amazons having plenty to teach. I don't mean to imply their philosophy has no merit or is less than what you'd find in the real world. But I myself like the idea that while we could learn a whole lot from them, there's actually a few things they could learn as well. I figure there's more narrative soil to work with that way.

And looking at it from a more...academic?....view, I'm sure some of what they'd recommend simply isn't viable in the larger world. There are considerations in Man's World that the Amazons don't have to consider, and indeed had never imagined. They're a singular and homogeneous culture within a small geographic area, send to Paradise before global trade really got moving. They, and their philosophy and ethics, have never had consider to some questions that Man's World would pose. I mean, how would the Amazon's loving submission square with things like international trade, currency exchange rates, tariffs, etc? Commerce in Man's World must be far more complex than what they have on Themyscria, and while we've certainly made such things more complex than they strictly need to be, there's still plenty there that is complex of necessity, which the Amazons would have no solutions to, since they've never been faced with the same circumstances.

Hope I explained that right? The Amazons have plenty to offer, and I'd actually like to see Diana making more headway in this; with people around the world following her example and adopting Amazon philosophy. But I don't think it would be as good a fit for the world as the Amazons believe.

[Mel Dyer]

I don't think Wonder Woman has one recurring foe, who diminishes her, on a spiritual or psychological level - even a thematic one - the way Batman, Superman and Luke Skywalker do. I appreciate what writers are trying to create between Diana and Cheetah, but, for me, that marvelous cyclical enmity ..simply isn't there.

I think still think an archenemy would help define her mission. I think she needs a smart, Ares-powered Silver Swan or a female Doctor Psycho to do it. Let's see what Warmaster brings to the ongoing narrative.

Sorry to wander into the reeds, a bit.

[kjn]

Oh, I agree with the notion of the Amazons having plenty to teach. I don't mean to imply their philosophy has no merit or is less than what you'd find in the real world. But I myself like the idea that while we could learn a whole lot from them, there's actually a few things they could learn as well. I figure there's more narrative soil to work with that way.

I have had some thoughts about all this, on various levels, and I also want to question some of your assumptions.

First, on a strict meta-narrative level, is that the Amazons to me should be an implied critique of our society: of patriarchy and gender roles, but perhaps also of class structures, ableism, racism, and so on. DC's writers have generally been rather bad at handling such aspects. More commonly, writers who attempt to depict Amazon society neuter any such critique (even the one implied by having a healthy and vibrant all-female society) by making the Amazons into those who have to learn and change and adapt.

Put simply, I don't trust DC to handle the Amazons in a nuanced way, and I'd much rather have utopic nice Amazons than backwards ones.

I also want to question some of your assumptions. The historical Amazons are associated with the plains north and east of the Black Sea, and there are also references to them in Anatolia, both on the west and north. The Eastern Mediterranean area (which includes the Black Sea) was a huge melting pot during classical times, with direct connections between Egypt, Greece, Persia, and the various realms of the Fertile Crescent. Trade networks were a lot more developed than we usually give credit for. I can easily see the DC Amazons in classical times maintaining contacts not only over the Eastern Mediterranean area, but with the Central Asia, India, China, and Europe. Perhaps Ethiopia as well, and through that with the rest of Africa.

They might have been stuck on Themyscira for 3,000 years, but that doesn't mean they must have stagnated—we are in fantasy land, right? Pérez made a connection between the Amazons and a re-imagining of the Pandora myth. Lets build on that, and make the Amazons into allies of Prometheus and other culture gods: the DC Amazons were the inspiration and teachers for all the emerging civilisations.

As for the loving submission thing, I think it was originally phrased by Marston as "submission to loving authority", which is rather different. As one of Marston's (many) crank ideas, I'm not sure it should be brought in wholesale to the modern era—usually to be simultaneously mocked and misunderstood. But I'd certainly love to see a creator dig into what a loving authority could be or look like.

[Agent Z]

One good way to explore it is to remember that reasonable use of authority and what you do in the bed room are two separate topics for a reason.

[Ascended]

Put simply, I don't trust DC to handle the Amazons in a nuanced way, and I'd much rather have utopic nice Amazons than backwards ones.

Ha! Well that's true. If my choices are "flawless utopia" or "Azzarello style murder culture" I'll take the flawless utopia. DC certainly has proven their inability to handle any degree of nuance. I really don't see portraying a advanced culture still having a few blemishes as "nuance" but yeah, DC probably lacks the ability to showcase the Amazons as a superior culture while still having a few blind spots of their own.

I also want to question some of your assumptions. Trade networks were a lot more developed than we usually give credit for.

True, but they were still far less complex than what we have now. And that was just an example. But I think the basic point; that there are aspects of Man's World that the Amazons simply have no answers to, nor parallels in their own culture to compare with, is likely accurate.

They might have been stuck on Themyscira for 3,000 years, but that doesn't mean they must have stagnated

Given their advanced technology and magic, I don't imagine they stagnated at all. It's not about their culture stagnating in my mind, it's more a "apples and oranges" thing. There's plenty of instances where the Amazon system is superior to what Man's World does, but I think there's certainly some things that simply wouldn't translate from their culture and way of life to the rest of the world.

As for the loving submission thing, I think it was originally phrased by Marston as "submission to loving authority"

Yeah, I believe that was the exact phrasing. And it's still not something I see a lot of people in Man's World embracing. The Amazons have been blessed with strong, noble leadership for 3000 years. Look at our elected officials and political landscape (or the DCU's, which is actually worse). I doubt anyone in the Western hemisphere would willingly accept this Amazon concept. Our distrust of politicians runs too deeply, for far too many good reasons, to trust an authority whether it claims to be loving or not.

[kjn]

True, but they were still far less complex than what we have now. And that was just an example. But I think the basic point; that there are aspects of Man's World that the Amazons simply have no answers to, nor parallels in their own culture to compare with, is likely accurate.

Quite possibly.

But I think there is an imbalance here. Rather than focusing on the things that the Amazons can't teach us, I think it'd be much more fruitful and interesting—and better for the Wonder Woman brand long-term—to ask what the Amazons can teach us.

Because that right now is a big gaping hole in Wonder Woman's role as ambassador and envoy to Man's World.

[Ascended]

Quite possibly.

But I think there is an imbalance here. Rather than focusing on the things that the Amazons can't teach us, I think it'd be much more fruitful and interesting—and better for the Wonder Woman brand long-term—to ask what the Amazons can teach us.

Because that right now is a big gaping hole in Wonder Woman's role as ambassador and envoy to Man's World.

Who said I wanted to focus on what the Amazons *cant* teach?

If I had my way, the focus in the narrative would be the same as the ratio of things the Amazons *can* teach compared to what doesn't translate. So, just using some arbitrary numbers here, let's say 75% of the Amazon philosophy is something that could not only apply to the real world but would be a improvement over how we do things now. So 75% of stories about the Amazons would touch on those things. And only 25% of stories about the Amazons would focus on the things where Hippolyta has to sit back and say "Damn, man does things like that? Huh, we've never had to deal with that/how man does it is actually fine."

And since not every story would be about the Amazons, it'd be a fairly rare occurrence. I figure such a story might crop up once every.....five years or so maybe?

[kjn]

Who said I wanted to focus on what the Amazons *cant* teach?

Well, when I read your post #16 I got a lot of stuff about Diana's mission not being achievable, or having a conflict between the Amazons and Diana on how she manages to achieve (or not) her mission.

Which is partly what I reacted about. Focus first on what Diana and the Amazons can teach, and the conflicts it will cause with Man's World.

[Ascended]

Well, when I read your post #16 I got a lot of stuff about Diana's mission not being achievable, or having a conflict between the Amazons and Diana on how she manages to achieve (or not) her mission.

Which is partly what I reacted about. Focus first on what Diana and the Amazons can teach, and the conflicts it will cause with Man's World.

I was afraid I wouldn't express myself so everyone would get it.

But no, I don't think the mission, as it was originally, conceived, is 100% achievable. 75% achievable maybe (arbitrary number), but I imagine Diana was sent with a specific mission and it's only after she's learned something of Man's World that it becomes apparent not every aspect of the mission is compatible with the realities Diana's facing (like the Amazons finding out how they handle trade just won't work in the real world, as the random example).

And I do think that would cause some friction. The gods aren't going to respond well to Diana not doing everything they want, even if the fault is on them and the parameters of the mission they gave her. And the Amazons likely wouldn't understand at first either, and it'd take some time and them learning more about Man's World before they realize that it's not Diana, it's the fact that global trade is weird and complex (again, random example) and just not a good fit for the Amazon way.

I don't endorse this being the main driver of the Amazon narrative. Not even a little. I think, by and large, the mission is a good one and should be shown to make advancements. I just think there'd be a few things that don't jive, and that provides a fun story alternative once in a while when the regular kind of stories are wearing thin. But the emphasis is on "once in a while."

[WonderScott]

I think of Diana and her mission of spreading Amazonian principles as an “ambassador” in the sense that she shares these principles with Patriarch’s World via the actions she takes and beliefs she espouses to the people she comes in contact with; her friends, her teammates, her villains, and the broader DCU.

It’s not her taking a job at the UN (although she may address them do to her stature as a superhero or her status as a member of the political system on Themyscira) or some other political appointment... it’s how her words and actions and beliefs contrast or influence those with and without political power. Diana’s very nature has been to change things by her nature and how she affects the people she comes in contact with. Granted a lot of that has been lost or not in the forefront of working with the character lately, but it’s why Wonder Woman the film was a relief.

If I were editing or writing the book, I’d go down the path of Perez and have the Amazons slowly, eventually reveal themselves to the outside world and take their place in it. There’d be an Amazonian ambassador, that’s not Diana, doing her thing while Diana continues to do her thing. This would also broaden the Wonder mythos and add more Amazonian depth to the broader DCU.

Diana’s world needs more characters and breadth and complexity and nuance and this is just one way of continually building that.

[Mel Dyer]

...If I were editing or writing the book, I’d go down the path of Perez and have the Amazons slowly, eventually reveal themselves to the outside world and take their place in it. There’d be an Amazonian ambassador, that’s not Diana, doing her thing while Diana continues to do her thing. This would also broaden the Wonder mythos and add more Amazonian depth to the broader DCU.

Diana’s world needs more characters and breadth and complexity and nuance and this is just one way of continually building that.

I'm not fond of the idea of Themyscira having an embassy in Man's World, ..but, I like that idea. There's a job for Nubia in the current mythos, after all.

[Access]

May I ask you why you don't like the ideia of a amazonian embassy?
Also,if diana is not the ambassador,than what is her position,her "thing"?

[Mel Dyer]

May I ask you why you don't like the ideia of a amazonian embassy?
Also,if diana is not the ambassador,than what is her position,her "thing"?

I guess I think Diana, herself, should be the Themysciran embassy, or as close to it, as the Amazons deem necessary. I would prefer to see Diana established, with an iconic house (something small, but, stately), presided over by her best friend, Mala, who I think should be a regular in the comic.I

I just don't think that the Amazons need an official embassy, in MW. There's something magic-killing about it.