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  1. #61
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Superman can shake the boat but not that reputation I guess. He's had as many long term dramatic shifts as any character but is still deemed safe. He is considered stodgy even though three of the last four films have gotten knocked for radical developments and departures from what people know. Who knows for sure but I think the controversy of Jason white was only just masked by the Donner coating.

    If it took until the mid or late 80s to realize Superman's low mileage, I think people were pretty generous. Superman was hardly ever toyetic and as comic sales could never have lasted forever, the writing was on the wall.
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  2. #62
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Superman was hardly ever toyetic
    Is this true? I think the Kenner stuff did relatively well for its era.

  3. #63
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Other properties were years in by that point. Granted it was more a dominance of a few rather than Superman being inadequate compared to other heroes. Personally speaking I went in for the mid nineties Kenner stuff... but I still had more variations of Donatello than Superman stuff. Guess I missed the boat on TAS merchandise, though Superman 64 not translating to a decent video game probably overshadows all that. Death and Return was an average beat em up and for NES well... they featured Jay Falk as a boss haha. I think the Superman products are too few and far between with suspect quality apart from them for WB to really care more.
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  4. #64

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    by the late 80s, the screen rights were still held by the Salkinds, hence the Superboy syndicated show. then finally by the early 90s it went back to WB and the L&C show. great interpretation for the time. The Jon Peters non-movie era ended up being for the best. I don't want to have seen a giant spider and goofy robot sidekick. I don't think Nicholas Cage was a good choice for Superman.

  5. #65
    Wrath of a God Xero Kaiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    If thereís one medium I think Superman may just not be built for, itís video games.
    Eh, if they make things like Asura's Wrath, Bayonetta, Super Robot Wars and DBZ work, I'm sure it's not impossible to come up with a version of Superman that will fit in a game.

  6. #66
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    Yeah, things could work for a Superman game have been produced. They've just all been produced in Japan.
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  7. #67
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    I'd say Supes having more success on TV is more an issue of quantity over quality. There have been more successful TV shows, but none of those shows made the same impact or lasting influence that Reeve Superman did. While no modern Superman TV show was a polarizing as MOS, SR, or BvS, its not as if most of them are must see TV, IMO.

  8. #68
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    When it comes to gaming, I think one of Clark's main problems historically has been his powers. Old school games and consoles simply lacked the processing power and programming language to properly capture Clark's abilities. And then it became a problem of balance; making the game a challenge while still providing the Superman experience.

    We're at a point now where a Superman game wouldn't be difficult to make.....but it'd still be difficult to make *well.* The powers are something games can do now (check out Megaton Rainfall) and we've got the graphics to back it up (though not in Rainfall). We've got big open world sandboxes like GTA and Skyrim and you have to look no further than DCU Online to start getting ideas about how to implement some superhero/Superman specific mechanics.

    But how do you challenge Clark without giving every thug kryptonite bullets or seriously de-powering Superman? I think we could look at puzzle games like Prince of Persia for answers. Maybe it's not always about beating up the bad guy, maybe it's about disarming a bomb, saving civilians from danger, or beating up the bad guy *in the right way.* Maybe the Superman Returns game had the seed of a good idea in giving Metropolis a health meter, and a mission's success could (at least sometimes) be determined by casualties or property damage and not just whether the bad guy got KO'd.
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  9. #69
    The Nature Boy AnakinFlair's Avatar
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    I think one of the problems with Superman on the big screen is that they keep telling the same stories with the same villains. Superman has a vast cast of characters he can face off against, which a TV show can take advantage of. But for the movies, all we ever got was Zod or Lex Luthor (Superman 3, the main antagonist was a rich industrialist that may as well have been Lex). So if it's Lex, it's about him killing Superman and getting rich. If it's Zod, it's an invasion story. And each time they repeat the formula, it's to lesser effect.

  10. #70
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    When it comes to gaming, I think one of Clark's main problems historically has been his powers. Old school games and consoles simply lacked the processing power and programming language to properly capture Clark's abilities. And then it became a problem of balance; making the game a challenge while still providing the Superman experience.

    We're at a point now where a Superman game wouldn't be difficult to make.....but it'd still be difficult to make *well.* The powers are something games can do now (check out Megaton Rainfall) and we've got the graphics to back it up (though not in Rainfall). We've got big open world sandboxes like GTA and Skyrim and you have to look no further than DCU Online to start getting ideas about how to implement some superhero/Superman specific mechanics.

    But how do you challenge Clark without giving every thug kryptonite bullets or seriously de-powering Superman? I think we could look at puzzle games like Prince of Persia for answers. Maybe it's not always about beating up the bad guy, maybe it's about disarming a bomb, saving civilians from danger, or beating up the bad guy *in the right way.* Maybe the Superman Returns game had the seed of a good idea in giving Metropolis a health meter, and a mission's success could (at least sometimes) be determined by casualties or property damage and not just whether the bad guy got KO'd.
    The answer is... Cosmic! My idea for a Superman game has long been to emphasize the dual lives and treat it like Clark's got two jobs. On Earth, he's in Metropolis and while you can patrol in low-stakes encounters (robberies, cats in trees, so on) the primary focus is a more Telltale or investigative Clark Kent narrative where he's exposing Lex Luthor (you can have a big fight with Superman v. Armored Lex at the end, maybe a Metallo midboss). He can team up with Lois and/or Jimmy in some sections, but I think it'd be fun having to play as an investigative journalist unraveling Luthor's web of deceit. The other side of the game? Dealing with a cosmic threat on the other side of the galaxy where he can be Superman, but being on an alien world lets his powers be explored without wondering how he didn't turn someone into mist by sneezing in their direction. Maybe Mongul is turning Saturn into Neo Warworld and you have to stop it or Brainiac is trying to catalogue a planet at the edge of Sector 2814 (Letting Green Lantern cameo for a mission or so). You get to play with his powers unfettered and also remind naysayers that Superman's threats are often at a level where there is actual risk for him; it's not all bank robbers and rich white men in ivory towers.

    Give the player the option to advance both narratives at their own pace, make it feel like Clark is working two jobs (as many Americans must these days) and really play into both aspects of him. You can even add story packs via DLC to Metropolis that let Clark investigate other stories that end with classic Superman villains (Parasite, Toyman, etc). I'm sure this appeals to me alone, but I really love the idea of rather than trying to put it all together in one package, really emphasize he's not just disguised as one half the way most modern interpretations of Batman portray Bruce as a mask. Superman is Kal and Clark. We have the processing power, storage space and graphical fidelity to explore both, so why not go for it?
    Last edited by Robanker; 11-20-2019 at 09:34 PM.

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBatman View Post
    I'd say Supes having more success on TV is more an issue of quantity over quality. There have been more successful TV shows, but none of those shows made the same impact or lasting influence that Reeve Superman did. While no modern Superman TV show was a polarizing as MOS, SR, or BvS, its not as if most of them are must see TV, IMO.
    Here's what I was alluding to earlier:

    Man of Steel is not considered super successful, but if you look at just 2013 movies, it was the #5 domestic movie in the United States that year, behind three sequels and Frozen. Smallville can be considered a success in itself, having run 10 full seasons, but never ranked higher than 113th in any given year. Granted, that low mark for Smallville is mostly because it was handcuffed by WB/CW networks, which have such tiny audiences (7th Heaven was the number one show on those networks for the majority of its run, and it was usually in the 100's among all primetime TV shows). If you just looked at those metrics, it would be kind of funny to say the TV show in question was more successful than the movie. We could say the low-ambition TV shows did a better job of appealing to their relatively small core audiences than the movies did at reaching out to wide-scale crowds, but overall I agree the movies are wider impact.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    When it comes to gaming, I think one of Clark's main problems historically has been his powers. Old school games and consoles simply lacked the processing power and programming language to properly capture Clark's abilities. And then it became a problem of balance; making the game a challenge while still providing the Superman experience.

    We're at a point now where a Superman game wouldn't be difficult to make.....but it'd still be difficult to make *well.* The powers are something games can do now (check out Megaton Rainfall) and we've got the graphics to back it up (though not in Rainfall). We've got big open world sandboxes like GTA and Skyrim and you have to look no further than DCU Online to start getting ideas about how to implement some superhero/Superman specific mechanics.

    But how do you challenge Clark without giving every thug kryptonite bullets or seriously de-powering Superman? I think we could look at puzzle games like Prince of Persia for answers. Maybe it's not always about beating up the bad guy, maybe it's about disarming a bomb, saving civilians from danger, or beating up the bad guy *in the right way.* Maybe the Superman Returns game had the seed of a good idea in giving Metropolis a health meter, and a mission's success could (at least sometimes) be determined by casualties or property damage and not just whether the bad guy got KO'd.
    You’re making a classic error right from the start. You’re assuming that Superman would be fighting “thugs” like Batman does in the Arkham games. Why would he have to do that? He doesn’t do that in the comics. Brainiac or Imperix drones can screw him up. Humans upgraded by Apokoliptan tech in the DCAMU were able to really wreck havoc in Reign of the Supermen. Mongul’s Warworld Gladiators messed him up in Exile. Zod’s fellow Kryptonian prisoners or other Phantom Zone prisoners can kick his ass. Lex Luthor’s Amazo Virus enhanced humans were quite dangerous to Kal. Scott Snyder in Superman Unchained established that the US Military had weapons capable of killing Superman and so the other major world powers. In Gods and Monsters Project “Fair Play” does the same thing where we learn the government has been building weapons capable of killing Superman (who is a much more violent and brutal version) like the Metal Men.

    Honestly I’m shocked so many people are acting like Kal never fights mooks who can kick his ass. Kal’s “invulnerability” has always scaled high or low depending on what his creators want to portray. Sometimes like in Snyder’s Man of Steel, his invulnerability is such that he’s not hurt at all fighting with Zod, but I can post plenty of comic book examples where Zod bruises and bleeds Kal when they fight. Why is this such a big debate if a video game chooses to portray Kal as more vulnerable? Where was the outcry over Injustice letting Harley Quinn beat up Superman and simply giving him a health bar? Stop trying to get cute with it. The city health bar is a terrible idea that will force you to constantly have to go pick up civilians instead of letting you enjoy being Superman.

    Set it in his early years, set it in the Phantom Zone or in the Bottle City of Kandor, set it on Warworld or Apokolips, there’s a dozens ways to make a Superman game that can internally justify why Superman isn’t totally invincible. Or don’t justify at all, say it’s a freaking video game and this is a different interpretation of Superman, just like Injustice.

    If Batman fans can enjoy the Arkham games where Batman has a goddamn healing factor why can’t Superman fans enjoy a game where he has a health bar and he’s not utterly invincible like pop culture thinks he is? I mean Jesus I thought the iconic line was “you’ll believe a man can fly”, his flight is more iconic than his supposed invincibility.

    Edit: Also Ascended my rant isn’t really aimed in particular at you I’m just venting about all the complaints I see elsewhere. Don’t want you to think I’m targeting you or anything.
    Last edited by Vordan; 11-21-2019 at 08:27 AM.

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    I'm with Ascended. You can make a functional Superman game, but as far as creating a Superman experience, it's likely going to feel lacking compared to the Batman experience in the Arkham games.

    I've read comparisons to DBZ games, but those are of the beat-em-up or fighting game variety. Everyone is super strong, extra fast, and has chi projectile. I think part of the Superman experience, or at least the Superman experience I'd want, involves a lot more environment interaction.

    Also, I wouldn't dismiss the simulation of invincibility. You should work that in somewhere without making it feel trivial or just not enjoyable.

    In short, you can make a passable Superman game these days, but if you want it to be game of the year material and also feel like you do all the stuff Superman can do, it's a very tall order.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    I guess this is just a case of differing opinions caused by the fracturing of Superman himself lol. The invincibility aspect doesn’t really matter at all to me, I don’t care if it’s there or not. Now flying? That is something I want, even if I’d accept reducing Supes to just leaping. And flying actually is hard, especially making flying combat that feels good. It’s doable, Anthem has good flying combat (and not really much else) so it is possible.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    To answer the thread again.. Superman hasn't been as successful on film because his movies in the last 20 years have not represented who he is very well, his optimistic and hopeful nature, and the films haven't been very accessible ( aka entertaining and fun) to general audiences who have some expectations about the character and superhero films in general.

    I don't think there is nothing broken with Superman or his stories. On the contrary, he has some of the best comicbook stories I've seen (and some amazing villains), but the writers haven't taken the best advantage of them. I mean we still haven't even seen him fighting Brainiac, Bizarro, Mongul and lots others. I love Zod and Luthor, but Superman really needs something new to show audiences and wow them.

    I don't believe the success of characters like Spider-Man and Batman and Thor, etc, is because they are better than Superman. I do not believe that at all. WB simply haven't used Supes very well to his full potential, especially showing his kind and caring nature to human kind. The lates movies have focused too much on angst and how difficult it is to be Superman. They have lacked the balance and nuance that Superman requires.

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