Why does Clark have more success on the small screen instead of the big screen?

[Osiris-Rex]

Oddly enough Superman Returns made more money than Batman Begins. But it didn’t make enough for WB and it was saddled with the bull**** expectation of recouping ALL the expenses of the past failed Superman movies which was just ridiculous.

Other things also worked against a sequel to Superman Returns. There was a writer's strike that delayed the film. The writers left for other projects. Singer decided to do other movies.

[manwhohaseverything]

that's not the only reason

Batman Begins had a budget reportedly around $150 million and subsequently made $375.2 million, 2.5x times its budget; Superman Returns had a budget of between $204-$223 million and made $391.1 million, 1.91–1.75x its budget.

from what i know you need 2x multiplier to be considered a success.But superman is definitley a draw.

[DochaDocha]

The Superman Returns budget is kind of misleading, though, as mentioned previously in this thread. Its true cost is south of $200 million.

[Ascended]

Edit: Also Ascended my rant isn’t really aimed in particular at you I’m just venting about all the complaints I see elsewhere. Don’t want you to think I’m targeting you or anything.

No worries brother I get what you're putting down. But that's what I'm saying; Clark fighting random thugs isn't something you can do and make a game both enjoyable *and* feel like Superman. But a game has to have endless legions of minions to beat up, and if everyone Clark goes up against is armed with Fourth World weapons that can hurt him, you're not totally getting that Superman experience, with bullets bouncing harmlessly off your chest, yknow?

That's why I suggested the "puzzle" aspect for some missions/aspects of the game. You can have a mission where, I dunno, Intergang's stolen an armored car. The challenge isn't stopping them, because these are just your low-end Gangsters who aren't packing serious firepower, so it's about stopping them without bystanders getting hurt. That could allow you to employ powers like speed and heat vision and super-senses in fun, challenging ways, but offer no real physical threat to you. Then maybe you get a little cut scene or a "investigative" mission with Clark where you find out that while Superman was stopping that car, other members of Intergang raided Steelworks and made off with some BG-80's (anyone remember them from the 90's?). Your next mission might have you going up against more Intergang, only now they're all armed with some guns that can actually deal a little damage. By themselves, not a threat, but two dozen of them and your health meter is actually in danger. And maybe that mission/battle is a mix where you gotta try to keep casualties to a minimum but you get to cut lose more. And then another mission after that could put you up against Intergang's mid-boss, Metallo, where you can ignore potential casualties as much as you want and really start melting stuff with abandon.

However a game is done, I think it's gotta be more than a typical beat-em-up; that not only does a disservice to Superman's intellect and ability, but it's not much different from any number of other games out there. If you really want a game to give you that Superman experience, the same way PS4 Spidey did, you gotta do more than just give all the bad guys advanced weapons.

[marhawkman]

You’re making a classic error right from the start. You’re assuming that Superman would be fighting “thugs” like Batman does in the Arkham games. Why would he have to do that? He doesn’t do that in the comics. Brainiac or Imperix drones can screw him up. Humans upgraded by Apokoliptan tech in the DCAMU were able to really wreck havoc in Reign of the Supermen. Mongul’s Warworld Gladiators messed him up in Exile. Zod’s fellow Kryptonian prisoners or other Phantom Zone prisoners can kick his ass. Lex Luthor’s Amazo Virus enhanced humans were quite dangerous to Kal. Scott Snyder in Superman Unchained established that the US Military had weapons capable of killing Superman and so the other major world powers. In Gods and Monsters Project “Fair Play” does the same thing where we learn the government has been building weapons capable of killing Superman (who is a much more violent and brutal version) like the Metal Men.

Honestly I’m shocked so many people are acting like Kal never fights mooks who can kick his ass. Kal’s “invulnerability” has always scaled high or low depending on what his creators want to portray. Sometimes like in Snyder’s Man of Steel, his invulnerability is such that he’s not hurt at all fighting with Zod, but I can post plenty of comic book examples where Zod bruises and bleeds Kal when they fight. Why is this such a big debate if a video game chooses to portray Kal as more vulnerable? Where was the outcry over Injustice letting Harley Quinn beat up Superman and simply giving him a health bar? Stop trying to get cute with it. The city health bar is a terrible idea that will force you to constantly have to go pick up civilians instead of letting you enjoy being Superman.

Set it in his early years, set it in the Phantom Zone or in the Bottle City of Kandor, set it on Warworld or Apokolips, there’s a dozens ways to make a Superman game that can internally justify why Superman isn’t totally invincible. Or don’t justify at all, say it’s a freaking video game and this is a different interpretation of Superman, just like Injustice.

Or maybe have several different enemy groups with different toys and thus different ways to be a threat?

I'm with Ascended. You can make a functional Superman game, but as far as creating a Superman experience, it's likely going to feel lacking compared to the Batman experience in the Arkham games.

I've read comparisons to DBZ games, but those are of the beat-em-up or fighting game variety. Everyone is super strong, extra fast, and has chi projectile. I think part of the Superman experience, or at least the Superman experience I'd want, involves a lot more environment interaction.

Also, I wouldn't dismiss the simulation of invincibility. You should work that in somewhere without making it feel trivial or just not enjoyable.

In short, you can make a passable Superman game these days, but if you want it to be game of the year material and also feel like you do all the stuff Superman can do, it's a very tall order.

Here's an interesting YT vid about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSqlZNf99OM

One interesting thing I observed from the list though is that many of the games listed just weren't good games at all. But the fundamental problem is that it's a weird dichotomy. Batman games are easy, any random mook can theoretically kill you. That makes sense in the fictional lore too. But, put Superman in one of the Arkham Knight games instead of Batman and you need to give the crooks an edge to make it something other than a one-side curbstomping…. like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsz1p7R5CQA

Mike made some really good points about how Super-puzzle solving makes sense. Superman comics often involve him doing things with his powers to stop the bad guys or whatever other threat in ways that don't include punching people into super-paste. Does it really matter if the bad guy can hurt you when the threat is to someone else? Something templated like the Hitman games where your goal is to foil a villainous plot could be fun. Violence is AN option, but not always the BEST option. Puzzle solving in Hitman will often prevent enemies from acting at all. Either by preventing them from seeing you as a threat, or by physically separating them from the real action. A Superman game about studying the environment and figuring out how to use it to your advantage could be a lot of fun. It's something comic book writers have done for decades. Occasionally the movie writers too... occasionally.

[Kuwagaton]

I think far too many people assume it requires an Activision styled open world or one of those weird limiting situations like kryptonite fog. The ideas I've always had are more along the lines to guide the player in a way that distracts them from aimless exploration of the system. I spent all of my time with the GTA3 family aimlessly wandering because all of the missions were basically just using all the same mechanics but according to instructions. With Superman I say change all that by changing the mechanics according to the task at hand. Funny enough (because of what they tried on N64) I'll bring up NiGHTS, Prince of Persia, and Crazy Taxi out of hundreds of games with solid ideas to incorporate because I just don't believe the right ideas don't exist to make a satisfying game, never mind what people who work on these things think up. Programming seems hard, like it takes time, money, talent, and tons of testing. But the ideas are so easy.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

With Superman. The solution is simple...don’t go open world.

A better approach is to do it like Dishonored where you had a series of themed levels with multiple ways, paths and approaches based on the wide variety of powers at your disposal.

[JAK]

No worries brother I get what you're putting down. But that's what I'm saying; Clark fighting random thugs isn't something you can do and make a game both enjoyable *and* feel like Superman. But a game has to have endless legions of minions to beat up, and if everyone Clark goes up against is armed with Fourth World weapons that can hurt him, you're not totally getting that Superman experience, with bullets bouncing harmlessly off your chest, yknow?

That's why I suggested the "puzzle" aspect for some missions/aspects of the game. You can have a mission where, I dunno, Intergang's stolen an armored car. The challenge isn't stopping them, because these are just your low-end Gangsters who aren't packing serious firepower, so it's about stopping them without bystanders getting hurt. That could allow you to employ powers like speed and heat vision and super-senses in fun, challenging ways, but offer no real physical threat to you. Then maybe you get a little cut scene or a "investigative" mission with Clark where you find out that while Superman was stopping that car, other members of Intergang raided Steelworks and made off with some BG-80's (anyone remember them from the 90's?). Your next mission might have you going up against more Intergang, only now they're all armed with some guns that can actually deal a little damage. By themselves, not a threat, but two dozen of them and your health meter is actually in danger. And maybe that mission/battle is a mix where you gotta try to keep casualties to a minimum but you get to cut lose more. And then another mission after that could put you up against Intergang's mid-boss, Metallo, where you can ignore potential casualties as much as you want and really start melting stuff with abandon.

However a game is done, I think it's gotta be more than a typical beat-em-up; that not only does a disservice to Superman's intellect and ability, but it's not much different from any number of other games out there. If you really want a game to give you that Superman experience, the same way PS4 Spidey did, you gotta do more than just give all the bad guys advanced weapons.

That's a perfect idea, actually!

I do also think that more conventional ideas are possible, they just haven't been implemented properly in a game yes (the closest being the Taito arcade game). Imagine if the SNES "Death and Return of Superman" game was more like Konami's "X-Men" arcade game: 4-6 players (think Superman + the Justice League for the "Death" part, and then the "Superman Family" for the "Return" part). So part one would be Superman, Guy Gardner, Ice, Fire, Bloodwynd, and Booster Gold; part two would be Superman (solar suit), Hal Jordan, Steel, Superboy, Supergirl, and the Eradicator in engine city. One advantage to "Final Fight" style beat-em-ups is that people kinda know the score and don't complain as much if certain things aren't quite right (as long as the action is fast-paced and flows well). In both the "Death" and "Engine City" fights, you're dealing with a lot of baddies that are more on their power level. For the first part, you could even have Lex's flying attackers come in and since they're "helping you" you can't hurt them directly, while their fire does hurt you (a bit). Little touches like that.

For a more "in the shoes of Superman" experience ala what the Arkham games were for Batman, thinking outside the box like that is absolutely necessary - as is finding a way to make the controls intuitive.

[stargazer01]

that's not the only reason

from what i know you need 2x multiplier to be considered a success.But superman is definitley a draw.

Yes, but general audiences don't care about production budgets, they just want a good movie that entertains them.

Both Superman and Batman had bad movies that failed before we got Begins and Returns. It was about rebuilding the franchises. If Batman was so much bigger than Superman, then why Begins didn't do much better box office than Returns? My guess is many didn't even go see it because the last movie they saw burned them. Similar to BvS and JL.

[Osiris-Rex]

Yes, but general audiences don't care about production budgets, they just want a good movie that entertains them.

Both Superman and Batman had bad movies that failed before we got Begins and Returns. It was about rebuilding the franchises. If Batman was so much bigger than Superman, then why Begins didn't do much better box office than Returns? My guess is many didn't even go see it because the last movie they saw burned them. Similar to BvS and JL.

I had bought the DVD for Superman Returns at Best Buy while I was shopping for other things. I didn't even realize it had been a theatrical movie. I just assumed it was a made for video movie because nothing in it
looked all that impressive. To me it looked sort of cheap and not very well done. I was sort of shocked to later find out it was a theatrical movie. And shocked by the budget it had. I guess WB didn't do a very good job
of promoting it.

[Ascended]

For a more "in the shoes of Superman" experience ala what the Arkham games were for Batman, thinking outside the box like that is absolutely necessary - as is finding a way to make the controls intuitive.

Totally agreed. I think a Superman game needs a degree of variety that you rarely, if ever, see from a game. I think if you go at a Super-game with the mindset of "this has to be X genre" you're already doomed to fail. I think a good Superman game would be a little bit of everything. Which would be a crazy big challenge for developers, but we've got the technology now to actually make it possible, which we couldn't say until maybe ten years or so ago.

Another thought I had for a Super-game would be to model it somewhat after the old Fleischer cartoons and Morrison's Action, fused with some Elder Scrolls "build your character your way" approach. Like, start off at Golden Age power, and as you level you have different talent trees with different abilities you can open up. Maybe you want to ignore the physical talents and make your guy all about super-senses. Maybe you spend your time on top of the biggest building in the city, using your senses to find and pin-point objectives, and then using heat vision to snipe the bad guy. Or maybe you ignore the Flight talent but focus a lot on Strength and Speed. Or focus on everything and go the "well rounded" approach. Not really selling the pure Superman experience, but if nothing else, something like this would improve a game's re-play rating.

I had bought the DVD for Superman Returns at Best Buy while I was shopping for other things. I didn't even realize it had been a theatrical movie. I just assumed it was a made for video movie because nothing in it
looked all that impressive. To me it looked sort of cheap and not very well done..

You didn't like the "plane catch" scene? Come on man, Returns might be a boring, pretentious film but that scene was f*cking amazing, and extremely well done.

I'm also a fan of the "bullet bounces off Clark's eye" moment.

[daBronzeBomma]

If you had to rank the various media in terms of Superman's success in them, what's the order?

Me:

1. Print (comics)
2. Television (live-action)
3. Movies (feature films)
4. Animation (cartoons)
5. Stage (Broadway)
6. Music (songs about Superman & scores)
7. Books (non-graphic literature)
8. Video Games

[Yoda]

You didn't like the "plane catch" scene? Come on man, Returns might be a boring, pretentious film but that scene was f*cking amazing, and extremely well done.

I'm also a fan of the "bullet bounces off Clark's eye" moment.

That scene is, for my money, the best Superman scene in any Superman media. Hands down. Interestingly enough, I think it actually was pulled from Abrams Flyby script.

[Masterff]

Sorry, but the question makes NO SENSE....

Superman I and especially Superman II are seen as some of the best Super-Hero Films ever made!!

If you speak about the current situation I would say the following:
1.) In the TV Series he had his PARENTS and I really loved it.
2.) The TV Series had a positive atmosphere
3.) The TV Series showed a good version of CLARK KENT, I really DONT LIKE the MoS Clark.

[marhawkman]

Totally agreed. I think a Superman game needs a degree of variety that you rarely, if ever, see from a game. I think if you go at a Super-game with the mindset of "this has to be X genre" you're already doomed to fail. I think a good Superman game would be a little bit of everything. Which would be a crazy big challenge for developers, but we've got the technology now to actually make it possible, which we couldn't say until maybe ten years or so ago.

Another thought I had for a Super-game would be to model it somewhat after the old Fleischer cartoons and Morrison's Action, fused with some Elder Scrolls "build your character your way" approach. Like, start off at Golden Age power, and as you level you have different talent trees with different abilities you can open up. Maybe you want to ignore the physical talents and make your guy all about super-senses. Maybe you spend your time on top of the biggest building in the city, using your senses to find and pin-point objectives, and then using heat vision to snipe the bad guy. Or maybe you ignore the Flight talent but focus a lot on Strength and Speed. Or focus on everything and go the "well rounded" approach. Not really selling the pure Superman experience, but if nothing else, something like this would improve a game's re-play rating.

Well the recent Spiderman game was a great example of how to do this well. You have an open world, but you don't just stay in it. You do things like going into Wilson Fisk's office to annoy him in person. Fisk can and will break you like Bane broke the Bat if you aren't careful, but hey, that's the gameplay part of the video game.

If you had to rank the various media in terms of Superman's success in them, what's the order?

1. Print (comics)
2. Television (live-action)
3. Animation (cartoons)
4. Movies (feature films)
5. Video Games

Never seen any that were good:
6. Stage (Broadway)
7. Music (songs about Superman & scores)
8. Books (non-graphic literature)