View Poll Results: Batman should be drawn...

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  • sleek and svelte

    33 50.77%
  • bulky and muscular

    32 49.23%
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  1. #31
    Fantastic Member Stick Figure's Avatar
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    I’ve seen some Batman images by Neal Adams and to me , that’s too thin. The costume looks like plain cloth too which isn’t right. I like a big Batman with a heavily armored costume.

  2. #32
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    But the idea that Batman is wearing armour is an entirely new invention that came after Neal Adams was the Batman artist. How could he possibly create art for something that didn't exist at the time?

    Given that Batman was mostly swinging on ropes and rarely using his car (the old Batmobile was stuck in the garage back at the Batcave under Wayne Manor, Bruce was living full time in the city), Adams gave a Batman that was much more agile and not weighed down. Which was a throwback to the 1939 Batman, something that was deliberately part of the aesthetic. Neal was thought of as a much more realistic artist, so his figures were more like how real people look, especially athletes.

    Personally, I hate the armoured Batman that seems to have become popular because of the movies, where it easily compensates for actors not having the build to pull off a simple cloth outfit--although, I guess there were one-off armoured Batman stories before that.

    In the recent TV BATWOMAN, there's this gun that is supposed to be so powerful it can pierce Batman's armour. Which suggests that Batman could easily be gunned down but for his suit protecting him. Rather than how it used to be, that Batman is so skilled, he can avoid gunshots. I prefer Batman having the agility and the litheness to leap across rooftops and appear out of the shadows without warning, taking out villains before they have the chance to get at him.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    But the idea that Batman is wearing armour is an entirely new invention that came after Neal Adams was the Batman artist. How could he possibly create art for something that didn't exist at the time?

    Given that Batman was mostly swinging on ropes and rarely using his car (the old Batmobile was stuck in the garage back at the Batcave under Wayne Manor, Bruce was living full time in the city), Adams gave a Batman that was much more agile and not weighed down. Which was a throwback to the 1939 Batman, something that was deliberately part of the aesthetic. Neal was thought of as a much more realistic artist, so his figures were more like how real people look, especially athletes.

    Personally, I hate the armoured Batman that seems to have become popular because of the movies, where it easily compensates for actors not having the build to pull off a simple cloth outfit--although, I guess there were one-off armoured Batman stories before that.

    In the recent TV BATWOMAN, there's this gun that is supposed to be so powerful it can pierce Batman's armour. Which suggests that Batman could easily be gunned down but for his suit protecting him. Rather than how it used to be, that Batman is so skilled, he can avoid gunshots. I prefer Batman having the agility and the litheness to leap across rooftops and appear out of the shadows without warning, taking out villains before they have the chance to get at him.
    100% this. I hate armored Batman. I remember an article I read from Bob Kane where he described Batman as the opposite of Superman. Superman had all these powers, Batman didn't He was pure human, the best that human could be... but still human. The quote that stuck with me was that Superman was invulnerable.... "But Batman wasn't. If you cut him, he bleeds. If you shoot him, He could die."

    It wasn't until the '89 movie that they really leaned hard into the 'armor' concept. The idea of Batman getting gunned down in an alley... and hopping to his feet just seemed the 'opposite' of what Batman was. Alfred being a combat medic and stitching up Bruce when things got too rough was always a part of their dynamic. I hated that in Batwoman when they're bragging about how only one special weapon can get through 'the suit'. And that was developed as Bruce's contingency in case the suit fell in the wrong hands... Ughhh…

    Characters like Punisher need to be kevlared up... but Batman?? I will always prefer Bruce wearing his costume underneath his tuxedo or business suit as opposed to being in a fancy storage locker or being so involved that he can't get dressed by himself...

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Given that Batman was mostly swinging on ropes and rarely using his car (the old Batmobile was stuck in the garage back at the Batcave under Wayne Manor, Bruce was living full time in the city), Adams gave a Batman that was much more agile and not weighed down. Which was a throwback to the 1939 Batman, something that was deliberately part of the aesthetic. Neal was thought of as a much more realistic artist, so his figures were more like how real people look, especially athletes.

    Personally, I hate the armoured Batman that seems to have become popular because of the movies, where it easily compensates for actors not having the build to pull off a simple cloth outfit--although, I guess there were one-off armoured Batman stories before that.

    In the recent TV BATWOMAN, there's this gun that is supposed to be so powerful it can pierce Batman's armour. Which suggests that Batman could easily be gunned down but for his suit protecting him. Rather than how it used to be, that Batman is so skilled, he can avoid gunshots. I prefer Batman having the agility and the litheness to leap across rooftops and appear out of the shadows without warning, taking out villains before they have the chance to get at him.
    I prefer that no human be routinely able to avoid gunshots (after the bullet has been fired, I mean) - I actually miss the day when a handful of fairly skilled thugs could be at least a potential threat to Batman under the right circumstances. I don't like the armor, either - I mean, at least not beyond what regular police officers have. It comes to close to being "magic", to making him invulnerable. And one of the points of Batman to me is that he's not super powered. Fast and strong and capable, but not invulnerable, not faster and stronger than humanly possible. I do miss Batman being as much about being a detective, not facing very many world-wide (or even city-wide) threats. I like stories where he can deal with smaller cases. There are no robberies anymore, it seems. I think Batman (and the other Bats) have gotten way too close to being superpowered these days (heck, even in late '90s it sometimes happened). There may be lip service paid to them being only human, but all too often it's not reflected in their capabilities.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I prefer that no human be routinely able to avoid gunshots (after the bullet has been fired, I mean) - I actually miss the day when a handful of fairly skilled thugs could be at least a potential threat to Batman under the right circumstances. I don't like the armor, either - I mean, at least not beyond what regular police officers have. It comes to close to being "magic", to making him invulnerable. And one of the points of Batman to me is that he's not super powered. Fast and strong and capable, but not invulnerable, not faster and stronger than humanly possible. I do miss Batman being as much about being a detective, not facing very many world-wide (or even city-wide) threats. I like stories where he can deal with smaller cases. There are no robberies anymore, it seems. I think Batman (and the other Bats) have gotten way too close to being superpowered these days (heck, even in late '90s it sometimes happened). There may be lip service paid to them being only human, but all too often it's not reflected in their capabilities.
    I think a big problem with that is the long drawn out TPB style of writing now days. When a villain would show up in one issue and be taken out in the same one... or maybe the next one there were a lot more stories to squeeze into a book. Now? Every story is between 6-10 issues long... and it's all ONE story. And half the time it's the Joker... usually in a crossover... It's all big all the time.

    I see the same issue with TV series now. There are people talking about wanting 'shorter seasons' and 'tighter stories'... but that just cuts out the filler episodes... and those are often my FAVORITE episodes. The ones tthat DON'T need to push the Season Finale into place with setups and cliffhangers... and can just tell their own story are more memorable than episode 5 which plays like just the minutes 135-180 of the whole Lord of the Rings saga....

  6. #36
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    About the "svelte or bulky" question, I think the following image shows a perfect example of what happens when Bruce Wayne wears the Superman suit and Clark Kent wears the Batman suit.
    batman-v-superman-durata-film-1.jpg

    About the "armour yes or no" question, I think Bruce Wayne needs some sort of armour because he is human and no human being can dodge a bullet or the blade of a knife; even if the movies tell us it is possible. But because he is human, he can't neither jump, run or fight for long time wearing a 20 kilos heavy armour (that is around the weight of an armour able to stop a bullet in 7.62 Nato calibre), so how can we escape from this blind alley?
    Fortunately it was invented a special (and very expensive) fabric able to give some sort of protection from a handgun bullet or from a knife (see the next video), but unable to stop an assault rifle bullet. So in my humble opinion Batman should use a batsuit made with this kind of special fabric for the every night patrol, but when he must assault a hideout full of villains heavily armed (AK-47 and so on), he could use the armour; if he has the chance to going to the batcave and wear it.



    P.S. I forgot a thing: when I talk about armour, I don't talk about something like the armour of Iron Man, but about something like the armour of the swat teams (click here), which has a lot of weak point because it must be light and the policeman must be agile: I don't think protection must mean invulnerability.

    P.P.S.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    […]
    I do miss Batman being as much about being a detective, not facing very many world-wide (or even city-wide) threats. I like stories where he can deal with smaller cases. There are no robberies anymore, it seems. I think Batman (and the other Bats) have gotten way too close to being superpowered these days (heck, even in late '90s it sometimes happened). There may be lip service paid to them being only human, but all too often it's not reflected in their capabilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I think a big problem with that is the long drawn out TPB style of writing now days. When a villain would show up in one issue and be taken out in the same one... or maybe the next one there were a lot more stories to squeeze into a book. Now? Every story is between 6-10 issues long... and it's all ONE story. And half the time it's the Joker... usually in a crossover... It's all big all the time.
    […]
    I agree with both of you.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Since armor came up, I thought this was funny (in that we still discus the same issues) - just saw from way back in Batman #126 letters page.
    bp vests edited.jpg

    Of course, technology changes.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 11-30-2019 at 07:26 PM.

  8. #38
    Truth and Justice DC Classics's Avatar
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    Jaded haters of armored Batman? The 'opposite' of what Batman was? In Cinefex #41 (1989) Tim Burton explained, "I had looked at the Batman encyclopedia [The Encyclopedia of Comic Book Heroes: Batman (1976) by Michael Fleisher] and found that the mythology contradicts itself - it changes it's own history and has gone through many alterations over the years. So early on, I realized that even if I wanted to be true to the 'real' Batman, there could be substantial argument as to what that really was. We were drawing from the original DC comics for inspiration - there was bound to be a certain '40s feeling to it."
    http://www.1989batman.com/2012/03/vi...fex-issue.html
    In original Batman stories in Detective Comics and in Batman issues he wore his bulletproof vest, which was even revealed to be a steel vest in Batman #2 (1941) "Wolf, the Crime Master" written by Bill Finger, and in Dark Knight Returns Frank Miller established the concept of the emblem on his chest as an armored target to draw gunfire away from his head. in the 1989 Comics Interview Super-Special, Batman (1989) scriptwriter Sam Hamm explains, "Well, the body armor stuff is one of the snatches from [Frank Miller's] DARK KNIGHT. Batman is falling through midair at one point and hopes his body armor holds, and I thought that was a very, very useful idea, in terms of how to do this character. Of course, the problem that you have with a superhero movie is, you know, why don't they just shoot the guy! When he corners a crook and he's standing ten feet away, no matter how quick his reflexes are, a Goon has plenty of time to shoot him before the batarang or whatever comes out. So, in the very first scene we're trying to establish Batman as this sort of [mysterious] mythical, [rumored as an] almost supernatural figure who is rumored to exist and has got the [superstitious] underworld in a panic, but whose actual presence no one has ever confirmed. Virtually the first thing that happens is he lands on a roof and a guy turns around and shoots him twice squarely in the chest, knocks him down, and as the crook is about to grab his swag and make a run for it, he looks back over his shoulder and the guy's coming back at him again. When you sit down and try to work out the grit, the nuts and bolts of how the guy does what he does, you have to ask questions - why doesn't he get shot, why doesn't he get his ribs kicked in. Frank Miller's solution seemed like the most logical one... Well, actually, there are a couple of, like, literal swipes from [Frank Miller's] DARK KNIGHT - I think from the final script the only bit which has really made it in is the notion that he [Batman] wears the emblem on his chest as a target, essentially, because he's trying to draw fire away from his head. There were a couple of other bits like that, but really there wasn't a whole lot that we could use in terms of plot and characterization, because [Frank Miller's] DARK KNIGHT takes place with this 60-year-old Batman who has sort of come back for his swan song."
    http://www.1989batman.com/2013/05/vi...le-comics.html
    Even with the armor, Burton's Batman gets injured and bleed. Past his frontal body armor, Catwoman even found his vulnerable area and drove her talons through one of the weakest protected sides of his suit, into his flesh.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by DC Classics; 12-03-2019 at 03:41 AM.

  9. #39

  10. #40
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    100% this. I hate armored Batman. I remember an article I read from Bob Kane where he described Batman as the opposite of Superman. Superman had all these powers, Batman didn't He was pure human, the best that human could be... but still human. The quote that stuck with me was that Superman was invulnerable.... "But Batman wasn't. If you cut him, he bleeds. If you shoot him, He could die."

    It wasn't until the '89 movie that they really leaned hard into the 'armor' concept. The idea of Batman getting gunned down in an alley... and hopping to his feet just seemed the 'opposite' of what Batman was. Alfred being a combat medic and stitching up Bruce when things got too rough was always a part of their dynamic. I hated that in Batwoman when they're bragging about how only one special weapon can get through 'the suit'. And that was developed as Bruce's contingency in case the suit fell in the wrong hands... Ughhh…

    Characters like Punisher need to be kevlared up... but Batman?? I will always prefer Bruce wearing his costume underneath his tuxedo or business suit as opposed to being in a fancy storage locker or being so involved that he can't get dressed by himself...
    To be fair, the armor is a lot more human really - humans can't be expected to dodge gunshots, no matter how lean or agile. Batman, whatever his physique is going to get shot. This way it is more believable he won't die when he does inevitably get shot. Being so good that he doesn't get shot is the more inhuman notion.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    To be fair, the armor is a lot more human really - humans can't be expected to dodge gunshots, no matter how lean or agile. Batman, whatever his physique is going to get shot. This way it is more believable he won't die when he does inevitably get shot. Being so good that he doesn't get shot is the more inhuman notion.
    I'd agree with you more if the armor was more realistic - heavy, uncomfortable, hampering movement, etc.. As it is, he just gets an upgrade to more-than-human invulnerability without any drawbacks. I agree he shouldn't be able to dodge gunshots (have expressed annoyance at superhuman capabilities from Batfam before), but that doesn't inevitably mean he has to get shot, either. Stopping the bad guys before they pull the trigger should be normal course of action. And, of course, most people aren't crack shots, either.

    To me, there's no actual sense of him being "only human" this way, since he functions more Spider-Man or a low-level meta as it is - he's faster, stronger, and less vulnerable than human, but they keep saying he's human.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 12-02-2019 at 05:25 PM.

  12. #42
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    I might be sadistic but, like with the Spirit, I've enjoyed all those times when Batman got so beat up he couldn't even stand, his outfit was in shreds, and he had major contusions all over his body.

  13. #43
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I'd agree with you more if the armor was more realistic - heavy, uncomfortable, hampering movement, etc.. As it is, he just gets an upgrade to more-than-human invulnerability without any drawbacks. I agree he shouldn't be able to dodge gunshots (have expressed annoyance at superhuman capabilities from Batfam before), but that doesn't inevitably mean he has to get shot, either. Stopping the bad guys before they pull the trigger should be normal course of action. And, of course, most people aren't crack shots, either.

    To me, there's no actual sense of him being "only human" this way, since he functions more Spider-Man or a low-level meta as it is - he's faster, stronger, and less vulnerable than human, but they keep saying he's human.
    Personally I don't care, I've long since come to terms that Batman isn't realistic - I merely brought this up as a counterargument to the notion that lean gunfire dodging Batman is somehow more human when it really isn't. At this point it is really just an aesthetic preference or what kind of action style you prefer, all the more human or realism arguments are kind of silly. I prefer bulkier to leaner just because I'm more used to it for Batman. But somewhere in the middle is better.

  14. #44
    Incredible Member Mark Trail's Avatar
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    Bulky with a big old boxer stomach like Adam west

  15. #45
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Oh my God, I created a monster with this off topic; I'm sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I might be sadistic but, like with the Spirit, I've enjoyed all those times when Batman got so beat up he couldn't even stand, his outfit was in shreds, and he had major contusions all over his body.
    I commented here, because the topic "Bat-family suits" seems to me a more fit place to continue the discussion about the armour topic.

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