Batman: svelte or bulky body shape?

[OBrianTallent]

I like to think Batman should be on the builkier side, not full on bulk, but more boxer...Batman is a brawler, he should have the muscles to take the hits and give the hits. Nightwing and Tim are more svelte being the acrobats. Jason is between the two. I can see Damien becoming bulkier as he gets older as well.

[Heavunion]

Bulky mainly for the contrast with other Robin and especially Nightwing, I think Batman should be one of the most muscular in his Family and the League, he is almost super-human and I think it's cool if the look translates this. I don't mean huge like in The Dark Knight Returns but huge so that when he is compared with other heroes, he stands-out as a monster of strenght

[Tzigone]

Bulky mainly for the contrast with other Robin and especially Nightwing, I think Batman should be one of the most muscular in his Family and the League, he is almost super-human and I think it's cool if the look translates this. I don't mean huge like in The Dark Knight Returns but huge so that when he is compared with other heroes, he stands-out as a monster of strenght

I guess I'm the opposite, because I want him strong, but not peak of human strength. For his best trait to be Detective skills, not fighting skills (which I would have him great at, but not amazing).

[Jim Kelly]

I believe the true Batman is the one that Bill Finger, Bob Kane and Jerry Robinson created. So, the pure Batman form is in that style from the 1940s, which was the basic model for the 1950s and early 1960s, as well. If the publishers were true to what the creators intended, then that would be the Batman.

As much as I love the work of Carmine Infantino, Irv Novick, Neal Adams, Jim Aparo and Don Newton--I have to admit that's not the true version. At least with artists like Mike Parobeck, Rich Burchett, Marshall Rogers and Norm Breyfogle there was some attempt to get back to the classic model. That's why I love BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES. They weren't completely faithful to the Bob Kane style, but that was a major influence. Even Frank Miller, in his own way, was channelling that Bob Kane style in his Return of the Dark Knight (although Kane himself saw nothing of his Batman in that).

I wouldn't say this classic Batman is bulky--but Kane was a better cartoonist than an illustrator, so the approach is to bring things down to the simplest elements. Clean lines, basic shapes, exaggerated postures.

[j9ac9k]

When I think "svelte" - I think Nightwing.

When I think "bulky" - I think Bane (not the times he's depicted as monstrous though)

So I'd put Batman right in the middle - muscular, but athletic and agile

[phantom1592]

I might be sadistic but, like with the Spirit, I've enjoyed all those times when Batman got so beat up he couldn't even stand, his outfit was in shreds, and he had major contusions all over his body.

Agreed. Those issues are awesome. Despite the fact we know Batman will always win.... that really ups the ante and makes you feel like there is a threat.

To be fair, the armor is a lot more human really - humans can't be expected to dodge gunshots, no matter how lean or agile. Batman, whatever his physique is going to get shot. This way it is more believable he won't die when he does inevitably get shot. Being so good that he doesn't get shot is the more inhuman notion.

Why not? If John McLane and Martin Riggs and any of hundred other action stars in a thousand different tv shows get into gun fights every week and walk away unshot… why not BATMAN? The key to remember is that the bad guys can't really shoot straight... Especially when he's terrifying them... and he's good enough to move before they even aimed. The general consensus is that it takes SOME kind of skill to shot a moving target... when you're NOT about to get the crap kicked out of you by a bat shaped demon... and the generic punk with a gun? Yeah, I can believe a LOT more that generic terrified punk #3 is shaking so bad he can't shoot straight... than I can that an accomplished martial artist and acrobat can do a double flip and slid under a table while wearing full body armor. I still remember the quotes from Michael Keaton and George Clooney about how useless Batman would be in the giant armored suit. a kindergartner could beat him up if he was in that suit...

Jaded haters of armored Batman? The 'opposite' of what Batman was? In Cinefex #41 (1989) Tim Burton explained, "I had looked at the Batman encyclopedia [The Encyclopedia of Comic Book Heroes: Batman (1976) by Michael Fleisher] and found that the mythology contradicts itself - it changes it's own history and has gone through many alterations over the years. So early on, I realized that even if I wanted to be true to the 'real' Batman, there could be substantial argument as to what that really was. We were drawing from the original DC comics for inspiration - there was bound to be a certain '40s feeling to it."
http://www.1989batman.com/2012/03/vi...fex-issue.html
In original Batman stories in Detective Comics and in Batman issues he wore his bulletproof vest, which was even revealed to be a steel vest in Batman #2 (1941) "Wolf, the Crime Master" written by Bill Finger, and in Dark Knight Returns Frank Miller established the concept of the emblem on his chest as an armored target to draw gunfire away from his head. in the 1989 Comics Interview Super-Special, Batman (1989) scriptwriter Sam Hamm explains, "Well, the body armor stuff is one of the snatches from [Frank Miller's] DARK KNIGHT. Batman is falling through midair at one point and hopes his body armor holds, and I thought that was a very, very useful idea, in terms of how to do this character. Of course, the problem that you have with a superhero movie is, you know, why don't they just shoot the guy! When he corners a crook and he's standing ten feet away, no matter how quick his reflexes are, a Goon has plenty of time to shoot him before the batarang or whatever comes out. So, in the very first scene we're trying to establish Batman as this sort of [mysterious] mythical, [rumored as an] almost supernatural figure who is rumored to exist and has got the [superstitious] underworld in a panic, but whose actual presence no one has ever confirmed. Virtually the first thing that happens is he lands on a roof and a guy turns around and shoots him twice squarely in the chest, knocks him down, and as the crook is about to grab his swag and make a run for it, he looks back over his shoulder and the guy's coming back at him again. When you sit down and try to work out the grit, the nuts and bolts of how the guy does what he does, you have to ask questions - why doesn't he get shot, why doesn't he get his ribs kicked in. Frank Miller's solution seemed like the most logical one... Well, actually, there are a couple of, like, literal swipes from [Frank Miller's] DARK KNIGHT - I think from the final script the only bit which has really made it in is the notion that he [Batman] wears the emblem on his chest as a target, essentially, because he's trying to draw fire away from his head. There were a couple of other bits like that, but really there wasn't a whole lot that we could use in terms of plot and characterization, because [Frank Miller's] DARK KNIGHT takes place with this 60-year-old Batman who has sort of come back for his swan song."
http://www.1989batman.com/2013/05/vi...le-comics.html
Even with the armor, Burton's Batman gets injured and bleed. Past his frontal body armor, Catwoman even found his vulnerable area and drove her talons through one of the weakest protected sides of his suit, into his flesh.

Honestly the less people follow Miller the better in my opinion. He was never any good at writing Batman.... He was only good at writing HIS Batman... and honeslty that skill that deterioriated too .

[DC Classics]

than I can that an accomplished martial artist and acrobat can do a double flip and slid under a table while wearing full body armor. I still remember the quotes from Michael Keaton and George Clooney about how useless Batman would be in the giant armored suit. a kindergartner could beat him up if he was in that suit...

That's funny because neither Michael Keaton or even useless rubber-nipples George Clooney wore a giant armored suit. I really wouldn't wanna see a kindergartner hurt his little hand punching a real suit of armor... Here is an example of mobility in a real suit of armor...



Michael Keaton explained in Prevue [September 1989] how much he hated the heavy thick Batman (1989) Batsuit, "Although the costume and I are very close, I hope that after the film wraps I'll never see that sweat-drenched Batsuit again." http://www.1989batman.com/2013/04/vi...le-prevue.html
In Starlog #178 (1992) Batman Returns producer Denise Di Novi provides some background on the production itself, noting that "the lighter-weight bat-costume has made Keaton a much happier actor this time."

Honestly the less people follow Miller the better in my opinion. He was never any good at writing Batman.... He was only good at writing HIS Batman... and honeslty that skill that deterioriated too .

Honestly the less people whine about Miller the better in my opinion. Love him or hating him, he was fierce, rad and inspirational and brought Batman back with a vengeance, on top in the '80s.... HIS Dark Knight was harking back to Finger and Kane's original Batman in many ways, like it or not.

Why not? If John McLane and Martin Riggs and any of hundred other action stars in a thousand different tv shows get into gun fights every week and walk away unshot… why not BATMAN? The key to remember is that the bad guys can't really shoot straight... Especially when he's terrifying them... and he's good enough to move before they even aimed. The general consensus is that it takes SOME kind of skill to shot a moving target... when you're NOT about to get the crap kicked out of you by a bat shaped demon... and the generic punk with a gun? Yeah, I can believe a LOT more that generic terrified punk #3 is shaking so bad he can't shoot straight...

How unlikely that everyone Batman fights is a bumbling crook that can't shot straight, yet super-speedster Superman gets shot by every crook and of course the bullets conveniently just bounce off the Man of Steel. In original Batman stories in Detective Comics and in Batman issues Batman got shot a lot and he wore a bulletproof steel vest. If Batman wasn't wearing his bulletproof steel vest then Batman would have been killed off in Batman #1 (1940) when the Joker shot Batman squarely in the chest with bullet after bullet in the Joker's first appearance in the comic books, written by Bill Finger, art by Bob Kane and Jerry Robinson.

[John Venus]

Bill Finger described Batman as Sherlock Holmes in the body of Zorro. I'm not sure which part of Frank Miller's Batman fits that description. Or Tim Burtons for that matter even though I like that version.

I prefer a sleek and svelte Batman. I grew up reading 90's comics and B:TAS. Even as a kid I couldn't take the bulky tank like build the artists gave Batman seriously. Aparo stood out because I thought he drew a Batman who could believably swing across roof tops and be a martial arts master. It wasn't far from how Bruce Lee was built in real life. Then of course Norm Breyfogle split the difference and had a perfect middle-of-the-road build for his Batman.

[John Venus]

That said, I think Bruce should still be bulkier and heavier than Nightwing and the Robin's even if overall he has a lean build.

I might be sadistic but, like with the Spirit, I've enjoyed all those times when Batman got so beat up he couldn't even stand, his outfit was in shreds, and he had major contusions all over his body.

I thought I was the only one. I'm fine with *some* body armor but I'm really just looking forward to seeing it get torn apart and broken. My favorite part of comics is seeing Batman beaten up, bloody, costume in shreds, gritting his teeth but still putting in the effort and determination to win and save the day.

[DC Classics]

Bill Finger described Batman as Sherlock Holmes in the body of Zorro. I'm not sure which part of Frank Miller's Batman fits that description. Or Tim Burtons for that matter even though I like that version.

I prefer a sleek and svelte Batman. I grew up reading 90's comics and B:TAS. Even as a kid I couldn't take the bulky tank like build the artists gave Batman seriously. Aparo stood out because I thought he drew a Batman who could believably swing across roof tops and be a martial arts master. It wasn't far from how Bruce Lee was built in real life. Then of course Norm Breyfogle split the difference and had a perfect middle-of-the-road build for his Batman.

Bill Finger explained in The Steranko History of Comics Volume 1 (1970), "My idea was to have Batman be a combination of Douglas Fairbanks [Zorro], Sherlock Holmes, The Shadow, and Doc Savage as well. I patterned my style of writing Batman after The Shadow and old Warner Bros. [noir] gangster movies with Jimmy Cagney, George Raft, Edward G. Robinson and [Humphrey] Bogart. I always liked that kind of dramatic point of view. It was completely pulp style. Sometimes I overdid it, writing phrases like 'Night mantles the City.' But, somehow, it all seemed to work."

Frank Miller in the comic books and Tim Burton in the movies brought back Batman as more of a mysterious vigilante [like Zorro and the Shadow], the wearing of some body armor like Finger and Kane's Batman wore that bulletproof steel vest, even using guns [like the Shadow and Finger and Kane's original Batman], terrorizing the superstitious criminals, having brutal methods, Commissioner Gordon initially trying to have Batman arrested for his vigilante methods [Miller's Commissioner Yindel tries to have Batman arrested initially in Miller's Dark Knight Returns, Gordon tries to have Batman arrested initially in Miller's Batman: Year One, Commissioner Gordon expressed surprise to see that Batman is more than a legend and tries to have Batman arrested initially in Burton's Batman (1989)], and then Commissioner Gordon becomes dependent on help from Batman [in Miller's Batman: Year One, in Burton's Batman (1989) and Batman Returns]. Zorro and the Shadow wore black as does Burton's Batman.

There is a little detecting in Miller's. In Miller's Dark Knight Returns Batman detected that Two-Face's "Twice as big as you can imagine" clue meant Two-Face was targeting the Gotham Twin Towers. Batman detected the Mutant Gang had a wholesale deal for combat weapons from the army by a corrupt general. Batman detected that a man named Abner was making explosive dolls, chemical weapon dolls and smoke bomb dolls for the Joker and targeting the Gotham County Fair with poisoned cotton candy.

There is more detecting in Burton's. In Burton's Batman (1989) Batman, through secret surveillance recordings, detected that the hood Jack Napier, in Boss Grissom's gang, was robbing Axis Chemicals. Batman detected that the Joker is Jack Napier and has turned Boss Grissom's gang into his own Goons. Batman detected that the Joker has poisoned hundreds of women's beauty and hygiene products chemicals at the source and that each product only contains one component, so the poison only works when the products are worn together. Batman gave Vale his manila envelope with 50 sheets of paper to take to Knox, full of chemical equations and lists of woman's beauty products and hygiene products that the Joker had poisoned with Smylex, and that the poison works when the products are worn together. Knox reports, "Batman Cracks Joker's Poison Code!" Batman detected that Jack Napier was the other man with Joe Chill that murdered his parents during the mugging. In Burton's Batman Returns Batman detected that Oswald Cobblepot is the leader of the Red Triangle Circus Gang and that Cobblepot was raised in the Red Triangle Circus freak show and after numerous reports of missing children in several towns, police closed down the Red Triangle Circus's fair-grounds, folded the tents, however, Cobblepot vanished before he could be questioned. Batman detected that Cobblepot already knew that his parents were Tucker and Esther Cobblepot and Oswald really hated them because they threw him out, like a piece of garbage, in a caged bassinet, into the river. Batman detected that Cobblepot was really at the Hall of Records to make a list of children to murder. Batman figured out that the Arctic World pavilion was Penguin's hideout now, and the place where he hid his Red Triangle Circus Gang. Batman detected that ruthless Max Shreck was trying to use Cobblepot as mayor as his puppet to approve his power plant scheme. Batman detected Cobblepot's remote controlled zombie-like headgear penguin Commando Bombers signal's origin, Alfred was poised at the same console at which he'd jammed Penguin's speech. The last of the coordinates crackles over Alfred's headset and it is Alfred that jammed the frequency of the Penguin's penguin Commando Bombers with a large bazooka strapped to each ones back, wearing headgear on which is controlling them like zombies on remote control by the Penguin in the Arctic World area underground, angling their bazookas for maximum destruction at the Gotham Plaza area, but after Alfred jammed the Penguin's frequency Alfred then controlled the penguins and made them turn around away from the heavily populated Gotham Plaza area, and return to the Arctic World.

In Comic Scene #7 (1989) costume designer Bob Ringwood explained, "Interestingly, Bob Kane said that although he drew the costume in blue and gray, he couldn't draw black and black because it doesn't work in the comics. It was only blue [and gray] to define the define parts of the costume, and it was always black in his mind anyway, it was just colored blue [and gray]. So, we went ahead and did it black... That's why we did it shiny, because then at least the light reflects on all the contours. If it was just dull black, it would hardly show up.
I bought about 400 [comic books] - from really early ones though every period - and looked at them all. I thought it would be a mistake to do just the latest look: You have to get elements of all of it. We just tried to get the definitive Batman."
http://www.1989batman.com/2014/07/vi...ics-scene.html

Costume designer Bob Ringwood explained in Cinefex #41 (1989) about the black batsuit [like bats are black, and Zorro and the Shadow wear black], "Bats are black, of course – not blue – and black is much more sinister and sexy. After talking to Batman creator Bob Kane, we found out that he had always thought of Batman as being in black, but that it was very difficult to draw a black-on-black drawing for the comic strip. So he had drawn it in blue so that he could use different tones of the color for effect. In his mind, the blue was just a symbolic version of black. Our black costume was really nearer the original concept."
http://www.1989batman.com/search?q=Cinefex

The Detective Comics #28 (1939) "Frenchy Blake's Jewel Gang" text narration, written by Bill Finger, says, "A mysterious figure in black watches in the darkness above them -- it is the 'Bat-Man.'" And "The black clad figure of the Bat-Man swings into the looted apartment." Reprinted in Batman Archives vol 1 (1990) and Batman Chronicles vol 1 (2005).

Detective Comics #39 (1940) "The Horde of the Green Dragon" text narration, written by Bill Finger, says, "Again the intrepid black-clad figure of the Batman..." Reprinted in Batman Archives vol 1 (1990) and Batman Chronicles vol 2 (2006).

Detective Comics #46 (1940) "Professor Strange's Fear Dust" text narration, written by Bill Finger, says, "The Batman! Garbed in the hues of night itself..." Reprinted in Batman Archives vol 1 (1990) and Batman Chronicles vol 3 (2007).

Detective Comics #49 (1940) "Clayface Walks Again" text narration, written by Bill Finger, says, "Mysterious being of the shadows, garbed in garments as ink-hued as night itself, the Batman, flits amidst the darkness like the winged creature whose name he had adopted." Reprinted in Batman Archives vol 1 (1990) Batman Chronicles vol 3 (2007).

[Vakanai]

Why not? If John McLane and Martin Riggs and any of hundred other action stars in a thousand different tv shows get into gun fights every week and walk away unshot… why not BATMAN? The key to remember is that the bad guys can't really shoot straight... Especially when he's terrifying them... and he's good enough to move before they even aimed. The general consensus is that it takes SOME kind of skill to shot a moving target... when you're NOT about to get the crap kicked out of you by a bat shaped demon... and the generic punk with a gun? Yeah, I can believe a LOT more that generic terrified punk #3 is shaking so bad he can't shoot straight... than I can that an accomplished martial artist and acrobat can do a double flip and slid under a table while wearing full body armor. I still remember the quotes from Michael Keaton and George Clooney about how useless Batman would be in the giant armored suit. a kindergartner could beat him up if he was in that suit...

I'm one of those guys who rolls his eyes whenever an action star easily manages to avoid so much gunfire, so I'm not going to be convinced by that argument - and again, there isn't an argument to be made. That was my point, gunfire evading is just as inhuman and unrealistic as impossible armor, so that kind of reasoning on why either is better is silly. Ultimately the only thing that matters is which style you prefer - anything that suggests one is better or more true to the character is what I'm arguing against.

(And not shooting straight isn't a huge deal when those punks have semi and fully automated weapons, by all logic some bullet is bound to hit - if you can ignore that, then ignoring that armor would hamper his movements should be just as easy.)

[Jim Kelly]

They are different, because they engage your imagination in very different ways. Plot armour is a figurative kind of thing--you have to think about it as a convention of fiction, so you're using a different thought process when you're into a story. Of course, this could take you out of the story, but hopefully you can suspend your disbelief while you're in the story. Real armour is a literal kind of thing--it's providing a serviceable reason why the character survives and it avoids the suspension of disbelief question by lampshading some explanation for you. The problem with real armour is it lessens the sense of jeopardy. When you're into a story, while you might intellectually know that the characters are bound to survive, another part of your brain understands that, when characters are exposed to attack, they can get hurt (maybe die) if one of those bullets hits them--but if you know they have protection against bullets, you're not bothered.

This seems to be where the rubber hits the road with readers. Some need everything to have a realistic explanation, while others can suspend their disbelief and just go with the story. For me, the only time I was annoyed by plot armour was when I was in my teens. As a kid, I didn't care and now as an adult I understand the reason for it and I can laugh at it and not stress over it. But for some folks, these kinds of conventions in fiction drive them up the proverbial wall.

[Gotham citizen]

[…]
Costume designer Bob Ringwood explained in Cinefex #41 (1989) about the black batsuit [like bats are black, and Zorro and the Shadow wear black], "Bats are black, of course – not blue – and black is much more sinister and sexy. After talking to Batman creator Bob Kane, we found out that he had always thought of Batman as being in black, but that it was very difficult to draw a black-on-black drawing for the comic strip. So he had drawn it in blue so that he could use different tones of the color for effect. In his mind, the blue was just a symbolic version of black. Our black costume was really nearer the original concept."
[…]

So we "heretics", who prefer when Batman wears a black and gray bulletproof suit, actually are the ones more faithful to the original one.

Maybe the black became blue because Kane used (or had to use) too much light blue, so the following artist misunderstood what was the real color of Batman's costume and/or when Wertham started his crusade against comics, DC decided the light blue was a "less dangerous" colour for the readers.

[DC Classics]

Yeah comic book colors were originally very limited and the blue on Batman's costume and Superman's hair, etc. was originally intended to represent light reflecting on a black surface, not literately blue hair and a blue Batsuit, that became traditional, but it looked like they had blue hair and it looked like a blue Batsuit.

Jim Lee still has had to explain, "His [Superman's] hair’s not blue, actually. This is just one of those comic book things that longtime readers understand, like sound effects. When someone comes to a comic as a newbie – they see sound effects and read them as words. To me, I experience the sound effect. It’s really just a way to highlight the hair so it doesn’t look like a singular block, which doesn’t work – trust me on that. And if you use gray or white, it just doesn’t look right. It’s really a way to add depth and density to his hair. He didn’t grab the wrong bottle of hair dye."
https://ew.com/article/2013/07/09/su...rtist-jim-lee/

David Mazzucchelli noted in Amazing Heroes #102 (1986), "When I started this project [the Batman: Year One arc], I tried to find some of the oldest stories to see how he was originally depicted. It was a much harsher version, very stark, a lot of black. What I decided a few years back is, I don't like the way the color blue is used in the costume. I imagine it was originally used as the blue reflection on a black surface, and the blue has overtaken all the black. I don't see blue as having the effect Bruce Wayne wanted when he created the costume."

[phantom1592]

Yeah comic book colors were originally very limited and the blue on Batman's costume and Superman's hair, etc. was originally intended to represent light reflecting on a black surface, not literately blue hair and a blue Batsuit, that became traditional, but it looked like they had blue hair and it looked like a blue Batsuit.

Jim Lee still has had to explain, "His [Superman's] hair’s not blue, actually. This is just one of those comic book things that longtime readers understand, like sound effects. When someone comes to a comic as a newbie – they see sound effects and read them as words. To me, I experience the sound effect. It’s really just a way to highlight the hair so it doesn’t look like a singular block, which doesn’t work – trust me on that. And if you use gray or white, it just doesn’t look right. It’s really a way to add depth and density to his hair. He didn’t grab the wrong bottle of hair dye."
https://ew.com/article/2013/07/09/su...rtist-jim-lee/
"

That's a common technique that nobody really denies. even when painting figures and sculptures. You can't shade Black... nothing is blacker than black. So you use blue or grey to highlight it. Blue is a fresh vibrant 'new' look.... grey is old, worn out, undeadish look.

So yes... everyone knows you use blue to highlight black... but you also use black to shade blue. Back in the 30's I have no doubt that he wore a black suit... but by the 50's?? Through the 90's?? For visual, colorful, Comic Code or whatever reason... that classic iconic Batman suit that he wore for four decades was absolutely Blue with black shading.

Whatever the earliest incarnations was 'meant' to be had evolved and left the black cape back with his purple gloves.