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  1. #61
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    I think there are four large collections but they get expensive and tricky to track down. My recommendation would be to purchase the individual TPB. That was what I did and I found each copy relatively cheap on ebay. The only one you will probably have trouble with is, Back in Black. Those individual issues and TPB are on the expensive/rare side.
    Thanks Jekyll
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  2. #62
    Brandy and Coke DT Winslow's Avatar
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    The 9/11 issue nearly ruins the whole thing for me. Doctor Doom crying over a New York terrorist attack? Please.

    Peter as a teacher doesn’t make sense to me. Peter in a 9-5 job will never make sense to me. Plus the first day he shows up covered with bruises and his arm in a sling is his last day on the job.

    I’ve never cared for JMS as a writer across any medium. The only reason I have the run is because I bought all the trades for about forty bucks at a overstock book store in Hershey, PA.

    It’s blugh.

  3. #63
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DT Winslow View Post
    The 9/11 issue nearly ruins the whole thing for me. Doctor Doom crying over a New York terrorist attack? Please.
    I can ... roughly understand the use of Doom, but Juggernaut was there.

    Juggernaut had knocked down one of the towers himself back in the 90s and laughed about it. They really should have left him out.

    Peter as a teacher doesn’t make sense to me. Peter in a 9-5 job will never make sense to me. Plus the first day he shows up covered with bruises and his arm in a sling is his last day on the job.
    Peter having any job where he's expected to be there on time every day makes no sense to me. One of his big character traits in his secret identity is that he's unreliable. Granted, that's because of things like shipping out on his friends to fight Rhino, or disappearing for a week with no warning because Green Goblin has his kidnapped in an underground bunker or something, but his supporting cast for the most part don't (and shouldn't) know that.

  4. #64
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    I think Peter being unreliable is played out and makes him look incompetent/immature. Peter didn't skip school that much when he was a student, so I don't think he would have to miss class as a teacher.

    Plus there are plenty of superheroes in New York. When Peter first started out, he was literally one of the only superheroes. There is even more than one Spider-Man now to fight the Rhino.

  5. #65
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I think Peter being unreliable is played out and makes him look incompetent/immature. Peter didn't skip school that much when he was a student, so I don't think he would have to miss class as a teacher.

    Plus there are plenty of superheroes in New York. When Peter first started out, he was literally one of the only superheroes. There is even more than one Spider-Man now to fight the Rhino.
    I wouldn't say it's played out. I'd say it's a vital part of the character. I know there's a lot of people that want mature, responsible, well adjusted, and financial secure older Spider-man, and JMS did deliver on that, but that just doesn't feel like Spider-man to me.

    In the early days, he didn't miss much, no. You're right on that one, but since those early days, things have gotten a lot more complicated and he's picked up a lot more enemies that hold personal grudges against him.

    As for leaving supervillains for somebody else to fight... that's just not what he does.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by DT Winslow View Post
    Peter as a teacher doesn’t make sense to me. Peter in a 9-5 job will never make sense to me. Plus the first day he shows up covered with bruises and his arm in a sling is his last day on the job.
    I was in school at the time of this run, so Spider-Man being a school teacher was the lamest thing ever to me. He was suddenly the authority figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I wouldn't say it's played out. I'd say it's a vital part of the character. I know there's a lot of people that want mature, responsible, well adjusted, and financial secure older Spider-man, and JMS did deliver on that, but that just doesn't feel like Spider-man to me.
    I agree. It felt like there was a sudden shift in Peter's voice and attitude too, that was hard to reconcile with the years prior. The conflict between Peter's personal life and his Spider-Man life was lessened because the supporting cast was reduced to two family members who both knew his secret identity and fully supported him. Then when he was fighting super-villains they were all mystical monsters. It felt like a different series altogether.

    Paul Jenkins and Mark Buckingham's Peter Parker: Spider-Man was better.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I wouldn't say it's played out. I'd say it's a vital part of the character. I know there's a lot of people that want mature, responsible, well adjusted, and financial secure older Spider-man, and JMS did deliver on that, but that just doesn't feel like Spider-man to me.

    In the early days, he didn't miss much, no. You're right on that one, but since those early days, things have gotten a lot more complicated and he's picked up a lot more enemies that hold personal grudges against him.

    As for leaving supervillains for somebody else to fight... that's just not what he does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I was in school at the time of this run, so Spider-Man being a school teacher was the lamest thing ever to me. He was suddenly the authority figure.



    I agree. It felt like there was a sudden shift in Peter's voice and attitude too, that was hard to reconcile with the years prior. The conflict between Peter's personal life and his Spider-Man life was lessened because the supporting cast was reduced to two family members who both knew his secret identity and fully supported him. Then when he was fighting super-villains they were all mystical monsters. It felt like a different series altogether..
    Wow. Completely disagree. What is played out to me is the tireless immature,man child, perpetual teenager, approach. I am so tired of this angle and that was why the JMS run was such a breath of fresh air, it was a logical and well developed approach to where Peter should be in life. The only other run that comes close is the Spider-Man Renew Your Vows run from a few years back.
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  8. #68
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    Wow. Completely disagree. What is played out to me is the tireless immature,man child, perpetual teenager, approach. I am so tired of this angle and that was why the JMS run was such a breath of fresh air, it was a logical and well developed approach to where Peter should be in life. The only other run that comes close is the Spider-Man Renew Your Vows run from a few years back.
    It seems you're upset that Spider-man is ... Spider-man. You want him to be somebody else entirely. Wanting a different take on him is fine for specials, limited series, and alternate reality tales but frankly, in the regular continuity, it made the guy feel way to much like every other superhero that has his entire act together.

    The " immature man child" isn't an angle. It's who Spider-man is.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    It seems you're upset that Spider-man is ... Spider-man. You want him to be somebody else entirely. Wanting a different take on him is fine for specials, limited series, and alternate reality tales but frankly, in the regular continuity, it made the guy feel way to much like every other superhero that has his entire act together.

    The " immature man child" isn't an angle. It's who Spider-man is.
    Why can't a character grow and develop? Those aren't the only traits that make Spider-Man/Peter who he is.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    Wow. Completely disagree. What is played out to me is the tireless immature,man child, perpetual teenager, approach. I am so tired of this angle and that was why the JMS run was such a breath of fresh air, it was a logical and well developed approach to where Peter should be in life. The only other run that comes close is the Spider-Man Renew Your Vows run from a few years back.
    Peter read more like Peter to me in Renew Your Vows. When JMS came onto Amazing Spider-Man, it felt like there was a sudden shift in voice and characterisation.

    My stance is that a series has to be about something. If X-Men reaches a point where mutant prejudice is eradicated, then the story is over. If Batman rids Gotham City of crime, then the story is over. If Batman spends 90% of his time fighting wizards and demons, then it's a different series. If Dr. Strange spends 90% of his time trying to take down the Mafia, then it's a different series.

    In my mind, if Peter Parker reaches a point where he's the adult in the room, where he's truly happy and comfortable and has his life together, then the story is over. If he spends 90% of his time fighting magical monsters, then it's a different series.

  11. #71
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Why can't a character grow and develop? Those aren't the only traits that make Spider-Man/Peter who he is.
    Saying that you like change is like saying you don't want the character to be what he is now. You want him to be something different.
    You can't change without there being something different your changing into.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I wouldn't say it's played out. I'd say it's a vital part of the character. I know there's a lot of people that want mature, responsible, well adjusted, and financial secure older Spider-man, and JMS did deliver on that, but that just doesn't feel like Spider-man to me.

    In the early days, he didn't miss much, no. You're right on that one, but since those early days, things have gotten a lot more complicated and he's picked up a lot more enemies that hold personal grudges against him.

    As for leaving supervillains for somebody else to fight... that's just not what he does.
    The only one I can see complicating things would be the Green Goblin. He is the only villain who knows Peter's identity and has the resources to attack him at random. Still, that was there from the beginning. Peter The Teacher wasn't any more affected by that than Peter The Student.

    I don't know if you can have a 25+ Spider-Man who is immature or unreliable. At some point it's going to come off pathetic that he still makes the same mistakes as a 15-20 year old. That was the main complaint people had with Post-OMD Spider-Man. "Rebooting" Spider-Man like that only works if he is rebooted to a teenager. Honestly, as much as I don't want to see that, it would be the lesser of two evils.

    I think the core of Spider-Man is very much about youth, just not in a literal way. The song "Young At Heart" by Frank Sinatra is what I think of when I think of Adult Spider-Man. It describes an older Peter perfectly. He never loses his childlike qualities no matter how much he matures or grows physically. He is very much like Stan Lee was.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 05-24-2020 at 09:18 AM.

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    "Rebooting" Spider-Man like that only works if he is rebooted to a teenager. Honestly, as much as I don't want to see that, it would be the lesser of two evils.
    The problem is that Steve Ditko himself, and all evidence point to this, chose to have Peter age from high school to college.

    The best story Ditko worked on, ASM#31-33, the Master-Planner Saga had Peter age from high school to college. So Spider-Man growing up is baked into the original run of the character. Marvel Doctrine has always insisted on the legitimacy of the original Lee/Ditko/Kirby era to justify later editorial changes and moves. So the minute you reboot that in 616, you are left with no legitimacy.

    In any case the idea of Spider-Man working only as a teenager was never a real part of the character and publication history until 2000. It's not inherently the most profitable version of the character by any means, nor is it at all evocative to the character when he is first introduced to new consumers.

    I think the core of Spider-Man is very much about youth, just not in a literal way. The song "Young At Heart" by Frank Sinatra is what I think of when I think of Adult Spider-Man. It describes an older Peter perfectly. He never loses his childlike qualities no matter how much he matures or grows physically. He is very much like Stan Lee was.
    I honestly don't believe that Stan Lee ever really identified with or saw himself in any of his characters, and even then rarely outside a few issues.

    As for Spider-Man being "young in heart" that's a good way to look at it. Just not sure that's any more core to the idea of Spider-Man than being a teenager is.

    I honestly don't think there is really a core to the appeal of Spider-Man aside from being Spider-Man. The truth is people become fans of Spider-Man, come to know Spider-Man, long before they find out he's Peter Parker, what his origins are, and what his age is. Spider-Man would never have been as famous and big as he is if he had not had some way to be all things to all people.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 05-24-2020 at 09:40 AM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The problem is that Steve Ditko himself, and all evidence point to this, chose to have Peter age from high school to college.

    The best story Ditko worked on, ASM#31-33, the Master-Planner Saga had Peter age from high school to college. So Spider-Man growing up is baked into the original run of the character. Marvel Doctrine has always insisted on the legitimacy of the original Lee/Ditko/Kirby era to justify later editorial changes and moves. So the minute you reboot that in 616, you are left with no legitimacy.

    In any case the idea of Spider-Man working only as a teenager was never a real part of the character and publication history until 2000. It's not inherently the most profitable version of the character by any means, nor is it at all evocative to the character when he is first introduced to new consumers.
    I said it would be the lesser of two evils, not that it would be a good idea. A 16-year old who acts like a 16-year old will always always be better to a 28-year old that acts like a 16-year old. I don't see how this is a controversial opinion to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I honestly don't believe that Stan Lee ever really identified with or saw himself in any of his characters, and even then rarely outside a few issues.

    As for Spider-Man being "young in heart" that's a good way to look at it. Just not sure that's any more core to the idea of Spider-Man than being a teenager is.

    I honestly don't think there is really a core to the appeal of Spider-Man aside from being Spider-Man. The truth is people become fans of Spider-Man, come to know Spider-Man, long before they find out he's Peter Parker, what his origins are, and what his age is. Spider-Man would never have been as famous and big as he is if he had not had some way to be all things to all people.
    I would argue "young at heart" is very much a core part of Spider-Man.

    First, he is a Trickster character and Tricksters are known for their childlike personalities (note: being childlike and childish are two different things). It is arguably one of the main reasons that kids immediately connect with him. A 3-year old can connect with his personality more than they can with, say, Superman or Captain America.

    Second, it ties into Peter's identity as a scientist. A lot of scientists say that being a scientist is about having childlike curiosity and looking at things with a beginner's mind (meaning a mind free from prejudice and preconceived notions). We can even see this in JMS' Spider-Man. Peter wanted his students to approach things with curiosity, to be open-minded, and to think for themselves.

    Third, almost all adult versions of Peter are good with kids. The JMS/JRJR run is partly about how good Peter is with kids. The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man highlights how good Peter is at connecting with kids. We can see that even in adulthood, age-related themes don't leave Spider-Man. Which ties into my final point...

    How do you grow up a teen superhero that challenged real-life ageist notions about teenagers? The answer is obvious...you make him challenge ageist notions about adults. That is part of what was so great about JMS' Spider-Man. Becoming an adult hasn't hindered his open-mindedness, eagerness, or quirkiness in any way.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 05-24-2020 at 12:00 PM.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I said it would be the lesser of two evils, not that it would be a good idea.
    You are right, I understand what you meant.

    A 3-year old can connect with his personality more than they can with, say, Superman or Captain America.
    The fact is that a 3-year old will come to know Spider-Man through toys, through song (the "Spider-Man" 1967 theme song is a good kid's song), through stickers, through labels, and so on. Not through stories. They will know Spider-Man far before they find out he is Peter Parker, long before they hear "With Great Power comes great responsibility" or listen to any of his jokes. I say that as an uncle to a three-year old kid.

    As for why Spider-Man appeals to kids, it goes to the core of Ditko's design for the character, for a small kid largely confined to their room and just starting to walk out and discover the world, the appeal of crawling around the walls and ceilings is more immediate and tactile than say "flying" or "throwing his mighty shield". I think you can also extend that to older readers and teenagers, people who are "shut-ins" who spend time staring at ceilings, whether they read a lot or are asocial nerds and so on. So a guy who crawls around walls is fairly immediate in terms of experience to them in terms of a fantasy. Small kids are also fascinated with insects, bugs and other stuff because those are often their first introduction to animals (at least in families where they don't have pets). So Spider-Man as a concept speaks directly and immediately to that, over and beyond him being Peter Parker. Fact is only a small part of the global Spider-Man fanbase reads comics books, or thinks of Spider-Man in terms of story. For most people, Spider-Man is simply the guy who cralws up walls and swings around. That Spider-Man 1967 song ("Spider-man, Spider-Man/Does whatever a Spider can") for instance has become a popular standard and was sung and known among people who never read the Spider-man comics and never will. Not once do those lyrics mention Spider-Man's real name and age.

    A lot of scientists say that being a scientist is about having childlike curiosity and looking at things with a beginner's mind (meaning a mind free from prejudice and preconceived notions). We can even see this in JMS' Spider-Man. Peter wanted his students to approach things with curiosity, to be open-minded, and to think for themselves.
    That's a good point.

    Third, almost all adult versions of Peter are good with kids. The JMS/JRJR run is partly about how good Peter is with kids. The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man highlights how good Peter is at connecting with kids. Even in adulthood, age-related themes don't leave Spider-Man. This is a good thing. How do you grow up a teen superhero that challenged real-life ageist notions about teenagers? You make him challenge ageist notions about adults. That's part of what I love about the JMS Spider-Man. Becoming an adult hasn't hindered his open-mindedness, eagerness, or quirkiness in any way.
    I agree with this totally, and this is a great point. You are quite right in breaking down the binary of "youth/age" which people here (myself included) have set up and taken a stand on, i.e. if you aren't for one thing you aren't for another. And you are quite right about breaking and turning this. It's certainly true that even people who don't want Spider-Man to grow up don't want him to be completely young as is clear from the contradictory stuff said here by other posters. My sense has always been that Peter Parker as a character never got to enjoy his youth. Before he got bitten, he was a bullied shut-in kid. The only real time you can say that Peter was happy and carefree as a youth was that brief period when he got bitten and when his Uncle died. After that, he was burdened with the task of growing up too fast and so on.

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