How good was JMS' Spider-Man overall?

[PCN24454]

Same way a teenage high school student could be a superhero and still be able to attend class and get passing grades.

TBF a student is less likely to be expelled than a teacher being fired

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

I liked a lot of the new villains introduced in the run, that mystical door was opened and all these new kinds of threats of that sort started appearing- it was a nice change of pace. The classic villains were still appearing in the side books at the time, it's not like we weren't seeing them at all.

As for making new characters, I'm actually ok with that.

Yeah, it's not like any creator shouldn't be allowed to come up with new characters, it'll just stifle the book otherwise. The issue was with the flood of new characters, skewing the balance. What also didn't help was that he wrote out a large amount of Peter's supporting cast, villains or not, while bringing in Morlun and Ezekiel as "what's REALLY behind Spidey". He began to dial it back as arcs progressed, but in the first arc he's pretty much steering this ship into "you're not science, you're magic" and "ALL of your rogues gallery are just echoes of Morlun". That gives you the impression he's saying "forget what was in the past, that's small time" (which carried over to Sins Past and his totemic tones in The Other - "you never really thought about what Spider[Man] is all about", etc.) It might not have been his intention, but I'm reminded of a political saying, mostly its latin american version: "Caesar's wife must not only be honest, she must SEEM honest".

I feel like your talk about Peter and his cast being preachy is why I always felt like his interpretation MJ and Aunt May were somewhat bland and uninteresting.

I liked his take on Aunt May being a "pro-Spidey activist", to be honest. But especially his MJ interactions just seemed wholly hyperbolic. Yeah, Pete and MJ are meant for each other, we get that - but when you try to keep putting those "we're bound by the cosmos" and "I love you" repeated framings as hyper dramatic in every arc, the novelty wears off fast. You're not really having prime rib if every day you eat prime rib, you know?

Maybe that's J. Mike's true skill- snatching victory from the jaws of defeat? It's almost like he knew what would happen, uncanny!

Well, he managed to win over the Spider-Man subset rather strongly, nostalgia helps too with Marvel doing a 180º of the Peter he wrote. But if you paid attention to the guy, the illusion wore off fast. He'd say that he only ever cared about writing Superman while he was at Marvel - that'd he pass on George Lucas directing a script of his' for it (George hadn't so harshly fallen from grace over Youtube takedowns of his flawed prequels yet). Then he went over to DC, and Grounded was heralded with pomp and circumstance. It bellyflopped. He left the book halfway his own arc, and then said he what REALLY wanted to do was Earth One Superman. Then DC announced Before Watchmen and he said that's what drove him to DC or somesuch... then the comic gigs were drying up and he said "he's conquered another challenge in his life", etc. You see the guy's just covering for his back and being his own PR man. Of course, far be it from me to say he has the wrong idea: with creators burning their goodwill in social media in record time these days, taking care of your reputation while not being adversarial is a Nobel prize winning handling of affairs by comparison.

Love your username by the way.

Thank you.
spoilers:

Based on a true story.

end of spoilers

[PCN24454]

I liked his take on Aunt May being a "pro-Spidey activist", to be honest. But especially his MJ interactions just seemed wholly hyperbolic. Yeah, Pete and MJ are meant for each other, we get that - but when you try to keep putting those "we're bound by the cosmos" and "I love you" repeated framings as hyper dramatic in every arc, the novelty wears off fast. You're not really having prime rib if every day you eat prime rib, you know?

I think what bothers me is that it came off as though Aunt May (and to a degree MJ) had to support him. It seemed like they stopped really talking to people outside of Peter's circle. Like they no longer had lives outside of him.

It doesn't help that Peter didn't tell Aunt May his secret; she stumbled upon it, and I hate how that takes away agency from Peter.

[Username taken]

I think I've said it before but I didn't like JMS run.

The whole "mystical" angle to Spider-man is something that just leaves me feeling cold.

Same with the extremely bad, immoral, and problematic Sins Past that thankfully has been retconned (God bless you Nick Spencer).

[your_name_here]

It was good with JRJR. The new villains were refreshing. It’s a shame only Morlun stuck as others weren’t given enough time.

Back in Black was awesome.

But the rest of it pretty much stunk.

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

I think what bothers me is that it came off as though Aunt May (and to a degree MJ) had to support him. It seemed like they stopped really talking to people outside of Peter's circle. Like they no longer had lives outside of him.

It doesn't help that Peter didn't tell Aunt May his secret; she stumbled upon it, and I hate how that takes away agency from Peter.

Might no longer be a controversial opinion, though back in the 00s it sure was, but "The Talk" can't hold a candle to "The Gift". May stumbling on it I can accept, with JDM's take she basically figured it out which is not all too separate; but the way JMS framed the story, he had to - you guessed it - retcon something yet again. We were shown the burglar shot Ben at their house, and JMS had to say May and Ben argued, he went out, and died outside ("I never saw my husband again").

Why? Because the way it was framed, with Peter taking the blame and the guilt full on, and May being indignant at it, if Peter says "I lied to you all these years, and also Ben died because of me", you're gonna have a hard time having them patch things up organically through the span of a single issue. But if May feels guilty herself and presents herself as culpable, that's a different story. But maybe, just maybe, you could solve that with a less destructive retcon, since you can count DeMatteis' take as one.

Of course, you can't just repeat DeMatteis either, so it's a bit of a thankless spot to be put on to begin with. But I'd say that sure, the dust has cleared, and people now can agree that convoluted mess of nonsense that it was, the Clone Saga wasn't without its charms, but it's kinda telling that the biggest hooks JMS presented that are remembered to this day in his run are: "Peter is met by a stranger that has the same powers as him (and secretly wants to replace him, with mucho mixed feelings about the defacto replacement)" and "Aunt May finds out Peter is Spider-Man".

[RJT]

Same way a teenage high school student could be a superhero and still be able to attend class and get passing grades.

If an individual student is absent, the class still goes on. If the teacher is absent, it doesn't. Not the same thing at all.

[Agent Z]

TBF a student is less likely to be expelled than a teacher being fired

They're also less likely to graduate from high school given how much being Spider-Man consumes Peter's time, if we're being realistic.

[Agent Z]

If an individual student is absent, the class still goes on. If the teacher is absent, it doesn't. Not the same thing at all.

Both of them are positions that would be compromised by how much time is dedicated to being a superhero is the point. You really think a student could realistically put in all that time into being Spider-Man and still have enough time for school work, let alone be able to get passing grades to graduate from high school and later on college?

[Agent Z]

I think what bothers me is that it came off as though Aunt May (and to a degree MJ) had to support him. It seemed like they stopped really talking to people outside of Peter's circle. Like they no longer had lives outside of him.

May was dating Jarvis and MJ still focused on her acting career. They did have lives outside of him.

It doesn't help that Peter didn't tell Aunt May his secret; she stumbled upon it, and I hate how that takes away agency from Peter.

Why does Peter need to have agency in that specific regard? Not every instance in which a character lacks agency is inherently bad.

[RJT]

Both of them are positions that would be compromised by how much time is dedicated to being a superhero is the point. You really think a student could realistically put in all that time into being Spider-Man and still have enough time for school work, let alone be able to get passing grades to graduate from high school and later on college?

High school and college students make up missing work all the time and maintain good grades. It's not even that farfetched. The salutatorian of my graduating class missed a TON of school our senior year and was still able to be the second highest ranked student in our school.

A teacher cannot make up missed work. When Peter was a student and missed class to fight the Vulture or whatever, he could have gone afterschool to make-up any tests he missed, or complete other make-up work at home. Given how bright he was, it's not inconceivable that completing that work wouldn't have taken him that much time at all.

When Peter was a teacher and missed class, he couldn't gather all his students up together at night so he could teach them that day's lesson. That's not even dealing with the fact that when he missed a day as a teacher, the school had to pay someone else to cover his classes for him.

Also, I don't think there were tons of instances in the Lee-Ditko comics of Peter having to miss class to be a superhero. JMS repeatedly brought up Peter missing work, so even there it's not an apt comparison.

[PCN24454]

May was dating Jarvis and MJ still focused on her acting career. They did have lives outside of him.

1. May dating Jarvis screams celeb relationship in the way people complain about MCU Spider-Man constantly being surrounded by Tony Stark and not being allowed to build his own mythos.

2. Compare the actual focus on said lives before the run. Now we only really see their lives to show how Spider-Man is interfering with it.

Why does Peter need to have agency in that specific regard? Not every instance in which a character lacks agency is inherently bad.

3. For all Peter talks about caring about people, he doesn't actually trust them. Him telling her his secret would show that he does in fact trust her and show that he's not just explaining himself cause he got caught with his pants down. A mature adult comes clean rather than just lets things happen.

[Uncanny Mutie]

TBF a student is less likely to be expelled than a teacher being fired

Exactly...

[Spidey_62]

It was good with JRJR. The new villains were refreshing. It’s a shame only Morlun stuck as others weren’t given enough time.

Back in Black was awesome.

But the rest of it pretty much stunk.

Yeah, when people say JMS' run I usually only think about the first half with JRJR, that's gold to me but the other half of JMS' run I can do without lol.

The first arc Coming Home is probably my favorite Spidey story of all time, it's just a really well-told well-presented story that calls into question the fundamentals of the character but doesn't get too overt. The conclusion is Peter pretty much refuting all those things and believing what he wants to believe, it's tactful and open-ended. It's got an all-time great action scene with Spidey vs. Morlun, he's got little personality but they even use that to highlight the danger/difference between the usual guys Spidey fights, he serves his purpose as an embodiment of those questions and his conclusive defeat goes hand in hand with Spidey's views. So many great inner monologues and Peter seeing a reflection of what he could have become had he never learned the lesson fundamental to his core in Ezekiel. Then if you even include the few issues with the conversation between Peter and May after all that it ends on a really optimistic and hopeful note that feels pretty contained and conclusive for the moment, it's a story that feels like a guy being put through the ringer of life having everything he believes called into question and coming out the other side totally reaffirmed in his beliefs and even stronger having let someone else in again.

I think Peter as a teacher is a good idea on several levels- it puts him back in high school like they so often love to want but in a fresh way where he can use his science skills to help kids and try to make the world better as Peter starting with the youth, the reflection of where he began. Problem is I don't think they did enough with the status quo before Civil War ruined it all pretty much, it was a lot of kids in distress stories but I guess that is true to life also for some teachers.

[Agent Z]

High school and college students make up missing work all the time and maintain good grades. It's not even that farfetched. The salutatorian of my graduating class missed a TON of school our senior year and was still able to be the second highest ranked student in our school.

A teacher cannot make up missed work. When Peter was a student and missed class to fight the Vulture or whatever, he could have gone afterschool to make-up any tests he missed, or complete other make-up work at home. Given how bright he was, it's not inconceivable that completing that work wouldn't have taken him that much time at all.

When Peter was a teacher and missed class, he couldn't gather all his students up together at night so he could teach them that day's lesson. That's not even dealing with the fact that when he missed a day as a teacher, the school had to pay someone else to cover his classes for him.

Also, I don't think there were tons of instances in the Lee-Ditko comics of Peter having to miss class to be a superhero. JMS repeatedly brought up Peter missing work, so even there it's not an apt comparison.

Peter would hardly be the first superhero who somehow managed to balance a job and superhero work. There have been stories where heroes would disappear for months, maybe even years, and then go back to their regular lives as if nothing happened. Given how Peter was a favorite of the teachers because of his grades in high school, him missing work would raise alarms and invite questions he doesn't want asked.

Of course, these issues would disappear if Peter never had a secret identity and we all know how fans would feel about that.