How good was JMS' Spider-Man overall?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I disagree about the Slott vs JMS comparison but that’s because I love Slott’s run. It’s my favorite Spidey run of all time mainly because Otto is my favorite Spidey villain.

Well Otto isn't actually a villain for the tail-end of Slott's run. I always find it weird people say "so and so is my favorite villain" and cite stories where the character has been made into a dime-a-dozen anti-hero.

[RJT]

I reread the JMS/JRJr run a few weeks back, as I’d long held the same view as most of you, that that was when the run was good. And I must report that...it has not held up. All the elements that have been lauded here, and that I remembered as strong points, are actually some of the weakest parts. The Ezekiel reveal is so antithetical to what makes Spider-man work as a character. JMS’ voice for Peter is so off. There’s a line in his first issue where he is talking about Aunt May and says “there isn’t a sonar in existence that can sound out the depth of her compassion.” The return of MJ is heavy handed and Peter actually unironically says “you complete me” to her. The run is full of time-wasting in-jokes—there is a multi-panel sequence where security guards discuss how awesome Babylon 5 is (JMS was Babylon 5’s creator and show runner) Even Peter becoming a teacher doesn’t work as well as you think—JMS tries to create the same kind of workplace environment Pete had at the Bugle with his antagonistic relationship with the school’s main office secretary. But where Jonah was a cruel, stingy boss—allowing Peter to “punch up,” watching him grouse and belittle a secretary (when he rescues the secretary as Spider-man and she asks him for an autograph, Spidey autographs a rooftop air conditioning unit and tells her good luck in getting it off the roof) it makes him come across as cruel. (It reminded me of some of the smug, condescending behavior Superman indulged in during JMS’ “Grounded” storyline) I think JMS has some basic scripting and pacing skills that were lacking in the Mackie run that preceded him that made his early issues seem such an improvement, but having reread them now nearly 20 years later they reveal that JMS really didn’t get Spider-man as a character at all.

[Ozymandias]

In the entirety of the JMS/JRJR run he didn't write a bad issue.

doom-crying.jpg

What's he crying about? Osama getting more camera time than him? This single panel would make the entire issue worthless, even if JMS wasn't already out of his depth.

I disagree about the Slott vs JMS comparison but that’s because I love Slott’s run. It’s my favorite Spidey run of all time mainly because Otto is my favorite Spidey villain.

Good to see some still sticking to their guns. While Slott was in charge, a lot of people seemed to enjoy the ride, now... not so many.

Well Otto isn't actually a villain for the tail-end of Slott's run. I always find it weird people say "so and so is my favorite villain" and cite stories where the character has been made into a dime-a-dozen anti-hero.

Actually, Superior was the only time when it got interesting to me.

The Ezekiel reveal is so antithetical to what makes Spider-man work as a character. JMS’ voice for Peter is so off. There’s a line in his first issue where he is talking about Aunt May and says “there isn’t a sonar in existence that can sound out the depth of her compassion.” The return of MJ is heavy handed and Peter actually unironically says “you complete me” to her.

I'd say I like it despite these flaws. It was basically his craft that made him stand out and stick. To the point that only Stern rates better IMO.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What's he crying about? Osama getting more camera time than him? This single panel would make the entire issue worthless, even if JMS wasn't already out of his depth.

A) This panel wasn't JMS' doing. It was JRJR. Go to 04:00.



That issue was written in very short notice. JMS wrote the prose section and gave it to JRJR and the editors with no panel instructions. So the editors decided to include a panel featuring prominent Marvel villains (Doom, Magneto, Fisk).

B) I think most readers were sophisticated enough to understand the basic intent of that moment. That is, it was these fictional characters standing outside the fourth wall and not really intended as a commentary on the characters.

C) Doom's villainy has always been over-the-top and theatrical quite removed from anything connected to real world violence. You aren't in any danger in real life of someone hijacking the powers of the Beyonder and becoming God, or hijacking the Silver Surfer's power and going surfing across the world with the power cosmic. You aren't in danger of someone using the powers of sorcery and super-science to launch crazy schemes. As a head of state, Doom would be quite anti-terrorism since Latverian rebels in the past have resorted to terrorist attacks against his dictatorship, proving multiple times to be no real alternative to him (and which JMS addressed in "Doomed Affairs" which might have been inspired by the response to Doom's presence in this issue). Likewise Doom is an ex-immigrant, he came and studied in New York and deep down Doom might have an affection for his adopted city. And Doom has never really (at the time of that issue) sponsored terrorism.

D) To be honest, the character who I had more problem with was Magneto. He actually did have a long history of being a terrorist and organized attacks. Magneto's backstory and reinvention stems from the romanticisation of terrorists that was common back in the 70s and 80s, where a lot of people looked at IRA and West German Terrorists like RAF from a tragic-critical view. Which is typical, terrorists are easy to humanize when they are white. And I wonder why people don't have an issue with Magneto there.

[NC_Yankee]

A) This panel wasn't JMS' doing. It was JRJR. Go to 04:00.



That issue was written in very short notice. JMS wrote the prose section and gave it to JRJR and the editors with no panel instructions. So the editors decided to include a panel featuring prominent Marvel villains (Doom, Magneto, Fisk).

B) I think most readers were sophisticated enough to understand the basic intent of that moment. That is, it was these fictional characters standing outside the fourth wall and not really intended as a commentary on the characters.

C) Doom's villainy has always been over-the-top and theatrical quite removed from anything connected to real world violence. You aren't in any danger in real life of someone hijacking the powers of the Beyonder and becoming God, or hijacking the Silver Surfer's power and going surfing across the world with the power cosmic. You aren't in danger of someone using the powers of sorcery and super-science to launch crazy schemes. As a head of state, Doom would be quite anti-terrorism since Latverian rebels in the past have resorted to terrorist attacks against his dictatorship, proving multiple times to be no real alternative to him (and which JMS addressed in "Doomed Affairs" which might have been inspired by the response to Doom's presence in this issue). Likewise Doom is an ex-immigrant, he came and studied in New York and deep down Doom might have an affection for his adopted city. And Doom has never really (at the time of that issue) sponsored terrorism.

D) To be honest, the character who I had more problem with was Magneto. He actually did have a long history of being a terrorist and organized attacks. Magneto's backstory and reinvention stems from the romanticisation of terrorists that was common back in the 70s and 80s, where a lot of people looked at IRA and West German Terrorists like RAF from a tragic-critical view. Which is typical, terrorists are easy to humanize when they are white. And I wonder why people don't have an issue with Magneto there.

I never got the impression that Doom ever cared about New York. Besides, I have always had the impression that there were certain villains that Peter despised above all others, and Doom was one of them. The others? Venom ( Brock), Carnage, Morbius and ( above all) Norm. As far as him being overthrown, it is like going from one bad guy to another ( Czar Nicholas being replaced by Lenin comes to mind), I have no sympathy for Victor.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I never got the impression that Doom ever cared about New York.

See the opening of Emperor Doom where Victor and Namor hang out in a cool New York restaurant, or Books of Doom, and even Warren Ellis' Doom 2099.

Dr. Doom has a medieval idea of rulership, the king protects his people. So Doom believes since it is his destiny to rule the world, it is also his responsibility to save it and defend it. You know "with great power comes..." Doom is a darker take on that idea.

Besides, I have always had the impression that there were certain villains that Peter despised above all others, and Doom was one of them.

Peter's afraid and terrified of Doom, a villain Peter's gone against multiple times and never defeated once. But I don't think he hates or despises him. He even reasoned with in ASM#349-350, by convincing Victor to spare Black Fox's life.

[Ozymandias]

the basic intent of that moment. That is, it was these fictional characters standing outside the fourth wall and not really intended as a commentary on the characters.

What's the point of using a particular character, at any side of the wall, if it's not going to look like it?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What's the point of using a particular character, at any side of the wall, if it's not going to look like it?

To convey a basic simple message, "We are fictional characters and story, but in this real moment, we are all of us, heroes and villains, standing with you in compassion".

It's similar to this famous image of the Looney Tunes characters paying tribute to Mel Blanc
Speechless - Tribute to Mel Blanc.jpg

This image includes Yosemite Sam among the mourners even if Sam was an enemy of Bugs and Daffy and often tried shooting them down. It also has Sylvester and Tweety Bird even if most of the cartoons are about Sylvester trying and failing to eat Tweety.

Fact is that Dr. Doom is a Marvel character, a character of an American comics company, created by American artists. He's an American creation. He is that before he is Latverian or anything else.

[NC_Yankee]

See the opening of Emperor Doom where Victor and Namor hang out in a cool New York restaurant, or Books of Doom, and even Warren Ellis' Doom 2099.

Dr. Doom has a medieval idea of rulership, the king protects his people. So Doom believes since it is his destiny to rule the world, it is also his responsibility to save it and defend it. You know "with great power comes..." Doom is a darker take on that idea.



Peter's afraid and terrified of Doom, a villain Peter's gone against multiple times and never defeated once. But I don't think he hates or despises him. He even reasoned with in ASM#349-350, by convincing Victor to spare Black Fox's life.

I do not think Peter is afraid and terrified of Doom. I remember when Peter called him a tyrant to his face, and hoped he would face a UN War Crimes Trial. Peter has learned the best way to deal with Doom is to talk and try and reason with him ( there are others you simply cannot like Carnage).

[Ozymandias]

To convey a basic simple message, "We are fictional characters and story, but in this real moment, we are all of us, heroes and villains, standing with you in compassion".

It's similar to this famous image of the Looney Tunes characters paying tribute to Mel Blanc
Speechless - Tribute to Mel Blanc.jpg

This image includes Yosemite Sam among the mourners even if Sam was an enemy of Bugs and Daffy and often tried shooting them down. It also has Sylvester and Tweety Bird even if most of the cartoons are about Sylvester trying and failing to eat Tweety.

Fact is that Dr. Doom is a Marvel character, a character of an American comics company, created by American artists. He's an American creation. He is that before he is Latverian or anything else.

Good point.

[NC_Yankee]

Good point.

Except no one considers Hamlet British ( despite Shakespeare being British and the play originating in Britain) He is still considered Danish. Same principle applies to Victor Von Doom.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Except no one considers Hamlet British ( despite Shakespeare being British and the play originating in Britain) He is still considered Danish.

That's a strange reference.

Anyway, nobody would deny that Hamlet is a character of British Literature. His language is English. Hamlet is a British creation.

In the same token, Danish people will always consider Hans Christian Andersen and his famous fairy tales (The Little Mermaid, The Ugly Duckling, The Emperor's New Clothes, The Snow Queen) to be Danish creations. The Danish do not consider Hamlet to be theirs. Scrooge McDuck is a Scottish billionaire created by Americans. He's considered an American creation and an American character and people of Scotland do not consider Scrooge to be theirs, no more than Groundskeeper Willie.

Same principle applies to Victor Von Doom.

Denmark happens to be a real country whereas Latveria doesn't exist. Victor von Doom is a character created by Americans (Jack Kirby and Stan Lee). He appears in comics published in America, and his IP (toys, merchandise, and so on) make money for American corporations. Ergo, Victor von Doom is an American creation. Victor von Doom's dialogue is rendered in English not any fictional Latverian language.

To bring this back on-topic...the 9/11 issue is not canon. I mean it's obvious from the book (the opening caption says, "we interrupt our regular programming") and general presentation that this is a non-canonical tribute issue to a real world event that comes straight from the heart. It's about Marvel the company speaking directly to the reader. That was the intent there. In that moment, Victor von Doom, Magneto, Fisk are not appearing as characters but as basically Marvel employees.

[Ozymandias]

make money for American corporations

Victor von Doom, Magneto, Fisk are not appearing as characters but as basically Marvel employees.

The only nation of corporations would be money.

Characters don't perceive a salary, so they can't be labelled as employees.

Your previous reply on the topic was better rounded up.

[daredevil1]

The thing about that 9/11 issue that some don't realize (okay, maybe everyone realizes) is that the narration is passed off as Spidey's, but it isn't Peter Parker narrating; it's JMS, with Romita drawing on top of his tone poem. So it never really worked as a 9/11 issue and more like a metaphor with J. Michael on his soapbox. To this day I'm still not sure if it's supposed to be in continuity or not, even at a time when the events were still in the present.

As for the rest of his run, it was more good than bad, but I got vexed by how constantly late it was, often. And I think it's fair to say that affected the overall quality somewhat. For someone who prides himself on being a professional, JMS is late an awful lot on his comics if the muse doesn't strike him. We got a huge late gap in his first year, and then again at the end when Civil War hit, and the book just stopped shipping instead of building up a block of issues like some of the other titles. He was STILL addressing the initial fallout of Aunt May getting shot right before One More Day. I think he never really wanted to commit to some things if he felt the work was beneath him, and if he had just swung for the fences and did everything he wanted it would've been more interesting. But we had many months of meandering issues tied around some lame villain he thought up with no point to them. Than after Sins Past literally every single story arc tied into a larger Marvel event, and he never told an 'original' story or one-off again. I think that contributed to the overall weaker reception of his run than if he had done his 'ultimate' Green Goblin story, then the Electro battle he wanted, etc.

[Uncanny Mutie]

I reread the JMS/JRJr run a few weeks back, as I’d long held the same view as most of you, that that was when the run was good. And I must report that...it has not held up. All the elements that have been lauded here, and that I remembered as strong points, are actually some of the weakest parts. The Ezekiel reveal is so antithetical to what makes Spider-man work as a character. JMS’ voice for Peter is so off. There’s a line in his first issue where he is talking about Aunt May and says “there isn’t a sonar in existence that can sound out the depth of her compassion.” The return of MJ is heavy handed and Peter actually unironically says “you complete me” to her. The run is full of time-wasting in-jokes—there is a multi-panel sequence where security guards discuss how awesome Babylon 5 is (JMS was Babylon 5’s creator and show runner) Even Peter becoming a teacher doesn’t work as well as you think—JMS tries to create the same kind of workplace environment Pete had at the Bugle with his antagonistic relationship with the school’s main office secretary. But where Jonah was a cruel, stingy boss—allowing Peter to “punch up,” watching him grouse and belittle a secretary (when he rescues the secretary as Spider-man and she asks him for an autograph, Spidey autographs a rooftop air conditioning unit and tells her good luck in getting it off the roof) it makes him come across as cruel. (It reminded me of some of the smug, condescending behavior Superman indulged in during JMS’ “Grounded” storyline) I think JMS has some basic scripting and pacing skills that were lacking in the Mackie run that preceded him that made his early issues seem such an improvement, but having reread them now nearly 20 years later they reveal that JMS really didn’t get Spider-man as a character at all.

Great observations. I have always said that JMS's run didn't age well. I was saying that TEN years ago.

The whole high school teacher thing in particular was an especially bad idea. Unless he operates mainly at night like Batman or Moon Knight, How the heck can a SUPERHERO be a high school teacher? The Rhino goes on a rampage in the middle of the day or The Shocker robs a bank around the corner. What does Peter do? Say to his students during 2nd Period, "Ummm...okay, kids. Just open your books and work on pages 220-225 while I go to the restroom. I'll be right back," and go sneak out the side of the school building, battle the bad guy(s), and then come back with mysterious scrapes and bruises all over himself during 4th period?