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  1. #1
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    Default Jiren vs. Gogeta

    Couldn't find this with a search so here we go.

    I'd say it's pretty clear that Jiren is stronger than Broly (fights off Goku, Vegeta and 17 at their strongest without going full power and when it's mentioned that he's above GoD level it's less nebulous than Goku's guess about Broly's power). But I'm not sure how Jiren stacks up to Gogeta.

    So here we go with Jiren taking on Super era Gogeta.

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  2. #2

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    Assuming the movie scales to the anime despite the issues with that, for this to be even worth discussing;

    The only statement we have that allows any real comparison is Goku stating that Broly 'might' be stronger than Beerus. By comparison, we have a direct statement by Whis that Jiren trumps Gods of Destruction as a whole, and obviously Whis wouldn't exclude the one he's most familiar with from a blanket statement.

    So Broly might be as strong as Jiren at his weakest (barring combat wounds such as his state at the very end).

    Meanwhile depending on how much of Jiren's power you think Whis could sense, Jiren by the end of the tournament is either one massive power up above that, or several jumps above it. At the very least he has the substantial increase in strength he got from overcoming his trauma, and might also have the progressive raises of his power he did throughout the tournament.

    While Gogeta was solidly stronger than Broly, Broly could tank several super moves from him and could clash against his attacks, which indicates that in terms of raw power the difference between them was fairly minor, and the onesidedness of the battle was more due to Broly being one of the worst fighters we've seen against peer opponents and that he gassed out.

    Since fusions have explicitly separate forms from their bases, sometimes having more sometimes having less, we can't assume that Gogeta has any transformation beyond Blue.

    So Gogeta is either around the level of Jiren in his first fight against Goku, or a bit above it. Additionally despite his philosophy about raw strength, Jiren is repeatedly shown to be very skilled where Broly just kind of flailed around.

    Which means Jiren by the end of the tournament crushes Gogeta with ease.
    Last edited by Siriel; 11-20-2019 at 10:20 AM.

  3. #3
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    Okay I guess I read this as Jiren vs Broly when it's Gogeta.

    Gogeta's power is so much more hypothetical than Broly's. I tend to think that if we float him SSBKK and whatever Vegeta did, that end of tournament Jiren would be a decently even fight, but I don't think there's a very strong argument to be made about where he sits power-wise. Fusion mechanics seem to work at the strength of plot, so...?

    Edit: I'll say that any version of this where Gogeta has a chance at winning depends on him using abilities that he probably SHOULD have but (as far as I can recall) didn't use in the movie. Then again, maybe Kaioken or Vegeta Blue-er would burn through the fusion too fast to be relevant.
    Last edited by BitVyper; 11-20-2019 at 10:40 AM.
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  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    Assuming the movie scales to the anime despite the issues with that, for this to be even worth discussing;

    The only statement we have that allows any real comparison is Goku stating that Broly 'might' be stronger than Beerus. By comparison, we have a direct statement by Whis that Jiren trumps Gods of Destruction as a whole, and obviously Whis wouldn't exclude the one he's most familiar with from a blanket statement.

    So Broly might be as strong as Jiren at his weakest (barring combat wounds such as his state at the very end).

    Meanwhile depending on how much of Jiren's power you think Whis could sense, Jiren by the end of the tournament is either one massive power up above that, or several jumps above it. At the very least he has the substantial increase in strength he got from overcoming his trauma, and might also have the progressive raises of his power he did throughout the tournament.

    While Gogeta was solidly stronger than Broly, Broly could tank several super moves from him and could clash against his attacks, which indicates that in terms of raw power the difference between them was fairly minor, and the onesidedness of the battle was more due to Broly being one of the worst fighters we've seen against peer opponents and that he gassed out.

    Since fusions have explicitly separate forms from their bases, sometimes having more sometimes having less, we can't assume that Gogeta has any transformation beyond Blue.

    So Gogeta is either around the level of Jiren in his first fight against Goku, or a bit above it. Additionally despite his philosophy about raw strength, Jiren is repeatedly shown to be very skilled where Broly just kind of flailed around.

    Which means Jiren by the end of the tournament crushes Gogeta with ease.
    What were your issues with it scaling to the Anime again?

    IIRC, you thought it was weird they didn't mention UI or attempt KKx20. Both are easily explained imo, but maybe I've forgotten something else you mentioned?

    Anyways, I agree with the rest of your points. I'm not sure Jiren could crush him with "ease" but I definitely think he wins 10/10.
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    What were your issues with it scaling to the Anime again?

    IIRC, you thought it was weird they didn't mention UI or attempt KKx20. Both are easily explained imo, but maybe I've forgotten something else you mentioned?

    Anyways, I agree with the rest of your points. I'm not sure Jiren could crush him with "ease" but I definitely think he wins 10/10.
    It's not just things being mentioned or used, but also the underlying characterization and implications through it.

    No Kaioken, no SSBE, Goku feels like he's reached his peak despite having personally experienced a superior form and knowing a mortal who's still much stronger than him and Vegeta having already reached a further form than his, a return to using Beerus as a measuring stick, and more subtle characterization points.

    Like keep in mind that if Goku was antsy to fight superior opponents, he could have gone to fight Jiren again at any time. If he didn't feel worthy yet, he could go to U6 and ask for Caulifla and Kale to fuse to train against Kefla. He has a ton of options to slowly climb his way higher, but the movie treats it as if he's back at the top like he was at the end of DBZ and thinks he might have reached his limit.

    It very much felt like Toriyama ignoring anything he didn't personally come up with.

  6. #6
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    My position is that I think we can pretty much take it on faith that anyone making a Broly thread, 999/1000 times, means to include the anime as context, and that the 1000th person is probably just my nemesis, acting in bad faith after seeing this post. That's what I get for taking that 3 point flaw.

    But I mean, I think that's pretty much what's happening here anyway.
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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    My position is that I think we can pretty much take it on faith that anyone making a Broly thread, 999/1000 times, means to include the anime as context, and that the 1000th person is probably just my nemesis, acting in bad faith after seeing this post. That's what I get for taking that 3 point flaw.

    But I mean, I think that's pretty much what's happening here anyway.
    Sure, that's why I took it for granted.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 11-20-2019 at 04:35 PM.

  8. #8
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Gogeta Blue should be waaaaaaay past Jiren for me.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Gogeta Blue should be waaaaaaay past Jiren for me.
    Why? Limit
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  10. #10
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    Sure, that's why I took it for granted.
    Yeah, that wasn't a jab at you or anything, sorry. Like I said, it seemed to me like we were already doing that.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 11-20-2019 at 04:35 PM.
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  11. #11
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Why? Limit
    Casually punching in and out of dimensions, would be my assumption. Something I don't recall Jiren himself doing despite ... punching being pretty much his sthick.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 11-20-2019 at 04:35 PM.
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    Casually punching in and out of dimensions, would be my assumption. Something I don't recall Jiren himself doing despite ... punching being pretty much his sthick.
    Eh, breaking through dimensional boundaries has been a thing since Buu saga. First Super Buu and ssj3 Gotenks smashed out of the ROSAT and later Buuhan was threatening dimensional damage against Vegito.

    Typically, breaking a dimensional barrier is actually a sign of poor control and fits the narrative of Broly being a hyper powerful newbie. IMO at least. Mileage and all that.

    Jiren meanwhile overpowers Time itself and shakes a dimension by flexing his ki.

    Also... anyone else notice a mass editing by Conn Seanery on multiple posts?? Wut?
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  13. #13
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Eh.

    Also, yea. Forgot about the dimension flexing. Bit above your typical "anything else".
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  14. #14
    Fantastic Member Tomzilla's Avatar
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    While I think punching through dimensions is more impressive than what Buu did back in DBZ, I think Jiren is operating on a higher level. There's a chance he didn't disrupt dimensions with his power because 1) he was fighting in a nigh-infinite void and 2) he wasn't trying to kill anyone.
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  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomzilla View Post
    While I think punching through dimensions is more impressive than what Buu did back in DBZ, I think Jiren is operating on a higher level. There's a chance he didn't disrupt dimensions with his power because 1) he was fighting in a nigh-infinite void and 2) he wasn't trying to kill anyone.
    I think it's just a function of good ki control to not cause collateral. Like how Frieza could planet bust back in DBZ but his infinitely more powerful Super Era beams dont destroy everything.

    Just regular DB stuff.
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