Jiren vs. Gogeta

[Sub-Zero MKA]

I don't think this ever happens?

He did against Trunks when they first met, but I don't think he's done it since.

[TerryAce]

OK, so if I remember the power scale

Jiren is stronger than Fusion Zamasu, who EXPLICITLY became the Universe (In Japanese, they say he became "Uchuu" which means Universe. DBZ only uses Uchuu for Universe and Sekai, which means world or structure of existence, to mean multiverse). So he's at least universal+. Then he broke his limits and shook the world of Void, an infinite plane of existence (Which would also make it a universe, as according to science, an infinite 3D plane would be a universe, not including space-time) So he's unquantifiably over base universal+. Some could argue he's low multiversal, but I'm not that one.

This is assuming we're using the anime, despite the official timeline stating the manga+ FnF and Broly movies are the main canon.

[BitVyper]

Letting his guard down and relaxing is explicitly identified as a weakness that Goku picked up over the years, not something that applies to everyone. Goku by the time of Super is just a lot more relaxed than Kid Goku was, and its shown in his behavior too.

Kid Goku had nothing going for him except raw physical durability, so how on guard he is compared to his child self isn't super relevant.

#18 called Krillin an idiot for losing his touch to the point he did a similar thing (resulting in him getting grazed by a bullet) and forced him to start training again.

Not training and having his stats actually go down is different from having his durability just straight up vanish if he gets hit from behind. As for bullets, well taking a bullet is like the first thing Goku ever did, before he had any idea what ki or powering up were. In the first arc, while hungry (which was specifically depowering to him in those days), and completely not guarding or paying any attention, he takes a wolf fang fist from Yamcha that punts him through a massive rock formation and he's basically okay. And like I said before, Goku was taking huge attacks before powering up was even remotely a thing.

I'd also note that the tiny laser was prepared by Freeza in advance, so who knows how powerful it was; he could have found a way to store a Death Beam from his Golden form for all we know, in which case it punching right through a relaxed base form Goku makes perfect sense.

That's possible, but if we're saying it's a Frieza level attack, that kind of defeats the whole argument that Goku can be easily taken out if caught by surprise. I mean I'm not arguing that he's not any more vulnerable at all to something blindsiding him, but the instances where we've seen it happen are all really weird and contrived, and kind of make it look like he just loses all durability whatsoever.

So to clarify, my argument here is that an attack that would normally be inconsequential taking Goku out because his guard relaxed is PIS. We know he's got a lot of raw physical durability that has nothing to do with powering up

I don't think this ever happens?

First time he fought Trunks IIRC. It never really comes up again, but the Namek saga established his telepathy pretty solidly, and then when he doesn't defend himself from Trunks on the first attack, he says that it's because he read Trunks' immediate intentions and knew he didn't have to. I'll admit I'm remembering this from the anime though, so if the comic says something different, fair enough.