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  1. #16
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    This is largely conjecture, but: I tend to think Broly maxed out at a level a bit above SSBKK Goku or whatever Vegeta. IIRC, Gogeta pretty decisively beat him, which I'd take to suggest that SSB Gogeta is somewhat above base Jiren. Base Jiren basically made SSB Goku irrelevant to about the same extent that Buuhan did to SS3 Goku, so that feels like Gogeta getting a relatively equal jump on the powerscale to what Vegeto had. Jiren's power up feels a bit nebulous, since he still ultimately can't really DO anything to Ultra Instinct Goku, but he does go from being trivially flattened to making Goku pretty much go all out and exhaust himself, so I think it's safe to say he'd probably wreck SSB Gogeta at that point. I'm less sure about what I think happens if Gogeta can do something like SSBKK, because it's something he should be able to do at least briefly, but hard to say how much stronger it would make him. I'm gonna say proooobably not enough to beat Jiren as quickly as he'd need to even if it puts him beyond Jiren. Ultimately, I think any amount of powered up Gogeta would have at least as much trouble with UI Goku as post-power-up Jiren did, which is bad for Gogeta, because he'll flame out before Jiren in any case.

    On the other hand, fusions always seem to come up with some weird powers, which could come into play.
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  2. #17

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    *glances around*

    Yeah but.... those edits tho >_>

    Also, Jiren did DO something to UI Goku. He flattened him twice and then instead of pouncing on him, he just watched as he struggled to his feet. Then he started running out of gas + threatened Goku's friends and gave him yet ANOTHER boost.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  3. #18
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    Did he? I remember him landing a couple AoEs and them not really doing much, but it's been awhile since I watched it.

    What edits? If it's about my original post, I somehow got it in my head that this was Jiren vs Broly, so I deleted what I'd written.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    Did he? I remember him landing a couple AoEs and them not really doing much, but it's been awhile since I watched it.

    What edits? If it's about my original post, I somehow got it in my head that this was Jiren vs Broly, so I deleted what I'd written.
    Several posts were edited by Conn Seanery. Some outright removed.
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  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    Did he? I remember him landing a couple AoEs and them not really doing much, but it's been awhile since I watched it.
    He's explicitly shown to overpower him in contests of power a few times, with Goku screaming in effort and all to indicate it's serious.

    For example, during their punch contest and during a beam war. Goku getting back up seemed to get to him and start throwing him off his game later on though.
    Last edited by Siriel; 11-20-2019 at 08:01 PM.

  6. #21
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    Fair enough, he got something in there, which is pretty impressive, and I don't have a problem saying he was throwing more power around than UI Goku, but ultimately, he wasn't really gaining enough to make UI Goku struggle beyond just going all out. There's not a point (in that section of the fight) at which it seems like UI Goku might not win if things continue as they are. Punch contests and beam wars are also UI Goku doing things he really... shouldn't do. I mean, they're tactically silly most of the time, but for UI Goku that's just flat out letting the guy past his best defense.

    At any rate, the ceiling is a bit hard to define here, but I generally maintain that a theoretical maxed out Gogeta doesn't really have a way to win but can probably briefly make Jiren sweat for it.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    This is largely conjecture, but: I tend to think Broly maxed out at a level a bit above SSBKK Goku or whatever Vegeta. IIRC, Gogeta pretty decisively beat him, which I'd take to suggest that SSB Gogeta is somewhat above base Jiren. Base Jiren basically made SSB Goku irrelevant to about the same extent that Buuhan did to SS3 Goku, so that feels like Gogeta getting a relatively equal jump on the powerscale to what Vegeto had. Jiren's power up feels a bit nebulous, since he still ultimately can't really DO anything to Ultra Instinct Goku, but he does go from being trivially flattened to making Goku pretty much go all out and exhaust himself, so I think it's safe to say he'd probably wreck SSB Gogeta at that point. I'm less sure about what I think happens if Gogeta can do something like SSBKK, because it's something he should be able to do at least briefly, but hard to say how much stronger it would make him. I'm gonna say proooobably not enough to beat Jiren as quickly as he'd need to even if it puts him beyond Jiren. Ultimately, I think any amount of powered up Gogeta would have at least as much trouble with UI Goku as post-power-up Jiren did, which is bad for Gogeta, because he'll flame out before Jiren in any case.

    On the other hand, fusions always seem to come up with some weird powers, which could come into play.
    I mean shouldnt SSB Gogeta should logicly be hundreds of times stronger than SSB Goku? Depending on how much stock one puts in the multipliers.

    That should put him and by extensions LSSJ Broly, well above SSBKK Goku.

  8. #23
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    I mean shouldnt SSB Gogeta should logicly be hundreds of times stronger than SSB Goku? Depending on how much stock one puts in the multipliers.

    That should put him and by extensions LSSJ Broly, well above SSBKK Goku.
    I mean the fight ends with Broly's friends desperately wishing him out of the fight. It's animated very dramatically, but once Gogeta goes blue, it's pretty much just Broly getting rekt and continuously powering up to no avail. The last attack he pulls off that really does anything is while Gogeta is still just regular old Super Saiyan.

    As for multipliers, fusions are all over the map in terms of what they do, but the increases in scale we see in the ToP, going from everything Goku has being made completely irrelevant by Jiren to Goku and Vegeta getting powered up during the tournament and still being completely ruined by Jiren, to Goku mastering UI and utterly reversing it to the point where Jiren's a chew toy with UI Goku barely trying, to Jiren getting HIS power up and pretty much forcing UI Goku to go all out to the point of exhaustion (though still decisively winning). Compared to SSB Goku and Vegeta getting Smoked by Broly to the point where Goku is like "this isn't working" (my personal explanation for the higher forms being absent is that he just realised that gradual escalation was going to be a bad idea when one guy was totally out of control) and goes off to fuse. SS Gogeta being seemingly above Broly but not decisively so, to SSB Gogeta making Broly's continual power escalation just not matter. For most of the fight, the only emotion we see out of Broly is rage; by the time SSB Gogeta is finishing with him, he's blatantly panicking and literally vomiting as much energy as he can and it's just not doing him any good.
    I swim through a sea of stars
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  9. #24

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    Just want to point out, people overestimate Broly's "power escalation" quite a bit.

    He's just a guy whose forms are way more powerful than they ought to be, who progressively increases into the power he already has due to never having fought a peer before. His power doesn't actually increase without limit; it's repeatedly shown in the movie that he hits his limit and then needs something else to bail him out.

    He hit the limit of his regular form when Vegeta pulled out SSG, and had to go rage mode (which Paragus informs us was something he already had). Then that hit its limit against Blue, and then he was completely doomed until Freeza helped him unlock Super Saiyan. Then that hit its limit against SSB Gogeta*, and he visibly ran out of gas and was screwed. He doesn't unlock new forms just from getting stronger.

    As the movie portrays it, someone who's sufficiently powerful could easily play the progressively power up game with him and end up the winner. Goku and Vegeta just weren't strong enough.

    It wasn't the same thing as with say Black or Kefla, who genuinely did become more powerful as they went.

    *: His final form isn't LSSJ or anything, it's just full power Super Saiyan.
    Last edited by Siriel; 11-21-2019 at 08:02 AM.

  10. #25

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    He had one final power up mid fight against Gogeta where his armor came off and his hair changed permanently from yellow to green. It went back to yellow right as the dragon saved him from the Kamehameha
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    He had one final power up mid fight against Gogeta where his armor came off and his hair changed permanently from yellow to green. It went back to yellow right as the dragon saved him from the Kamehameha
    As I said, that's explicitly identified as Super Saiyan's full power by every sources where it's named rather than a truly different form. It's just green because Broly's energy color is green.

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    As I said, that's explicitly identified as Super Saiyan's full power by every sources where it's named rather than a truly different form. It's just green because Broly's energy color is green.
    I didn't say it was a new form. I said it was a power up.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  13. #28
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    Yeah, I mean that's the bit I was talking about when I said that SSB Gogeta just made it not matter. By that point, it seems like his power generation is beyond his body's ability to handle too, hence the vomiting energy and panic

    Edit: To be clear, when I say vomiting energy, I mean it looked less like an intentional mouth blast and more like he couldn't stop it from coming out.
    Last edited by BitVyper; 11-21-2019 at 08:46 AM.
    I swim through a sea of stars
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    Faster than light, bending time

    Forever
    Wherever

  14. #29

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    Also, Broly was quite clearly progressively powering up even without talking about his new forms. Most of the "limits" he was hitting were being announced by his father, who quite frankly new nothing about the depths of his strength. Like, Broly is shown on-screen powering up past the limits his father thinks he's reached AS Paragus is saying he reached them.

    God Vegeta lays the dude out in one punch, pretty casually. Paragus goes "he's reached his limit" despite us seeing Broly start melting ice with a further power up. Vegeta then decides to flat out MURDER Broly with a blast, calling him a "waste" as Goku protests, lending credence to the idea that Vegeta is indeed going for a killing blow. Meaning he should be using a LOT more energy then his previous near KO punch.

    Through just that brief moment of ice melting power up alone, Broly survives said blast. Like it hurts, but he's not maimed. Only THEN does he finally transform under the water - new eye color and everything. Paragus says he got the 10x Oozaru boost but judging how he flat out no sells Vegetas next face punch, it's clear he has ramped up way beyond what that multiplier would suggest.

    Edit: Then there is also the yellow to green hair boost during Gogeta fight to lend credence that he can gain power without transforming. Then earlier there is also him getting his hands crushed, unable to escape against ssj1 Vegeta, but then moments later just powering up beyond that level without achieving any new form.

    His ceiling was clearly elastic.
    Last edited by The Arbiter; 11-21-2019 at 09:29 AM.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    I mean the fight ends with Broly's friends desperately wishing him out of the fight. It's animated very dramatically, but once Gogeta goes blue, it's pretty much just Broly getting rekt and continuously powering up to no avail. The last attack he pulls off that really does anything is while Gogeta is still just regular old Super Saiyan.

    As for multipliers, fusions are all over the map in terms of what they do, but the increases in scale we see in the ToP, going from everything Goku has being made completely irrelevant by Jiren to Goku and Vegeta getting powered up during the tournament and still being completely ruined by Jiren, to Goku mastering UI and utterly reversing it to the point where Jiren's a chew toy with UI Goku barely trying, to Jiren getting HIS power up and pretty much forcing UI Goku to go all out to the point of exhaustion (though still decisively winning). Compared to SSB Goku and Vegeta getting Smoked by Broly to the point where Goku is like "this isn't working" (my personal explanation for the higher forms being absent is that he just realised that gradual escalation was going to be a bad idea when one guy was totally out of control) and goes off to fuse. SS Gogeta being seemingly above Broly but not decisively so, to SSB Gogeta making Broly's continual power escalation just not matter. For most of the fight, the only emotion we see out of Broly is rage; by the time SSB Gogeta is finishing with him, he's blatantly panicking and literally vomiting as much energy as he can and it's just not doing him any good.
    My main point was that Wrathul Broly was slightly weaker than SSB Goku, that would presumably make his SSJ form roughly 50 times stronger than SSB Goku. SSJ Gogeta was atleast stronger than that and SSB would be much stonger than that. While SSB dosn't have on official multiplier we still know it's much stronger than SSJ3 (wich itself would be eight times stronger than SSJ).

    That would logicly make SSB Gogeta hundreds if not thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku.

    While Broly's full power form was no match for Gogeta, it would still logicly be well above SSBKK Goku. Although that likley wouldn't make him a match for Jiren.

    I know the multipiers shouldn't be taken as gospel, but the are still worth taking into acount.

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