Jiren vs. Gogeta

[Dark Soul # 7]

Couldn't find this with a search so here we go.

I'd say it's pretty clear that Jiren is stronger than Broly (fights off Goku, Vegeta and 17 at their strongest without going full power and when it's mentioned that he's above GoD level it's less nebulous than Goku's guess about Broly's power). But I'm not sure how Jiren stacks up to Gogeta.

So here we go with Jiren taking on Super era Gogeta.

Can the Pride Trooper defeat the fusion?

[Siriel]

Assuming the movie scales to the anime despite the issues with that, for this to be even worth discussing;

The only statement we have that allows any real comparison is Goku stating that Broly 'might' be stronger than Beerus. By comparison, we have a direct statement by Whis that Jiren trumps Gods of Destruction as a whole, and obviously Whis wouldn't exclude the one he's most familiar with from a blanket statement.

So Broly might be as strong as Jiren at his weakest (barring combat wounds such as his state at the very end).

Meanwhile depending on how much of Jiren's power you think Whis could sense, Jiren by the end of the tournament is either one massive power up above that, or several jumps above it. At the very least he has the substantial increase in strength he got from overcoming his trauma, and might also have the progressive raises of his power he did throughout the tournament.

While Gogeta was solidly stronger than Broly, Broly could tank several super moves from him and could clash against his attacks, which indicates that in terms of raw power the difference between them was fairly minor, and the onesidedness of the battle was more due to Broly being one of the worst fighters we've seen against peer opponents and that he gassed out.

Since fusions have explicitly separate forms from their bases, sometimes having more sometimes having less, we can't assume that Gogeta has any transformation beyond Blue.

So Gogeta is either around the level of Jiren in his first fight against Goku, or a bit above it. Additionally despite his philosophy about raw strength, Jiren is repeatedly shown to be very skilled where Broly just kind of flailed around.

Which means Jiren by the end of the tournament crushes Gogeta with ease.

[BitVyper]

Okay I guess I read this as Jiren vs Broly when it's Gogeta.

Gogeta's power is so much more hypothetical than Broly's. I tend to think that if we float him SSBKK and whatever Vegeta did, that end of tournament Jiren would be a decently even fight, but I don't think there's a very strong argument to be made about where he sits power-wise. Fusion mechanics seem to work at the strength of plot, so...?

Edit: I'll say that any version of this where Gogeta has a chance at winning depends on him using abilities that he probably SHOULD have but (as far as I can recall) didn't use in the movie. Then again, maybe Kaioken or Vegeta Blue-er would burn through the fusion too fast to be relevant.

[The Arbiter]

Assuming the movie scales to the anime despite the issues with that, for this to be even worth discussing;

The only statement we have that allows any real comparison is Goku stating that Broly 'might' be stronger than Beerus. By comparison, we have a direct statement by Whis that Jiren trumps Gods of Destruction as a whole, and obviously Whis wouldn't exclude the one he's most familiar with from a blanket statement.

So Broly might be as strong as Jiren at his weakest (barring combat wounds such as his state at the very end).

Meanwhile depending on how much of Jiren's power you think Whis could sense, Jiren by the end of the tournament is either one massive power up above that, or several jumps above it. At the very least he has the substantial increase in strength he got from overcoming his trauma, and might also have the progressive raises of his power he did throughout the tournament.

While Gogeta was solidly stronger than Broly, Broly could tank several super moves from him and could clash against his attacks, which indicates that in terms of raw power the difference between them was fairly minor, and the onesidedness of the battle was more due to Broly being one of the worst fighters we've seen against peer opponents and that he gassed out.

Since fusions have explicitly separate forms from their bases, sometimes having more sometimes having less, we can't assume that Gogeta has any transformation beyond Blue.

So Gogeta is either around the level of Jiren in his first fight against Goku, or a bit above it. Additionally despite his philosophy about raw strength, Jiren is repeatedly shown to be very skilled where Broly just kind of flailed around.

Which means Jiren by the end of the tournament crushes Gogeta with ease.

What were your issues with it scaling to the Anime again?

IIRC, you thought it was weird they didn't mention UI or attempt KKx20. Both are easily explained imo, but maybe I've forgotten something else you mentioned?

Anyways, I agree with the rest of your points. I'm not sure Jiren could crush him with "ease" but I definitely think he wins 10/10.

[Siriel]

What were your issues with it scaling to the Anime again?

IIRC, you thought it was weird they didn't mention UI or attempt KKx20. Both are easily explained imo, but maybe I've forgotten something else you mentioned?

Anyways, I agree with the rest of your points. I'm not sure Jiren could crush him with "ease" but I definitely think he wins 10/10.

It's not just things being mentioned or used, but also the underlying characterization and implications through it.

No Kaioken, no SSBE, Goku feels like he's reached his peak despite having personally experienced a superior form and knowing a mortal who's still much stronger than him and Vegeta having already reached a further form than his, a return to using Beerus as a measuring stick, and more subtle characterization points.

Like keep in mind that if Goku was antsy to fight superior opponents, he could have gone to fight Jiren again at any time. If he didn't feel worthy yet, he could go to U6 and ask for Caulifla and Kale to fuse to train against Kefla. He has a ton of options to slowly climb his way higher, but the movie treats it as if he's back at the top like he was at the end of DBZ and thinks he might have reached his limit.

It very much felt like Toriyama ignoring anything he didn't personally come up with.

[BitVyper]

My position is that I think we can pretty much take it on faith that anyone making a Broly thread, 999/1000 times, means to include the anime as context, and that the 1000th person is probably just my nemesis, acting in bad faith after seeing this post. That's what I get for taking that 3 point flaw.

But I mean, I think that's pretty much what's happening here anyway.

[Siriel]

My position is that I think we can pretty much take it on faith that anyone making a Broly thread, 999/1000 times, means to include the anime as context, and that the 1000th person is probably just my nemesis, acting in bad faith after seeing this post. That's what I get for taking that 3 point flaw.

But I mean, I think that's pretty much what's happening here anyway.

Sure, that's why I took it for granted.

[big_adventure]

Gogeta Blue should be waaaaaaay past Jiren for me.

[The Arbiter]

Gogeta Blue should be waaaaaaay past Jiren for me.

Why? Limit

[BitVyper]

Sure, that's why I took it for granted.

Yeah, that wasn't a jab at you or anything, sorry. Like I said, it seemed to me like we were already doing that.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Why? Limit

Casually punching in and out of dimensions, would be my assumption. Something I don't recall Jiren himself doing despite ... punching being pretty much his sthick.

[The Arbiter]

Casually punching in and out of dimensions, would be my assumption. Something I don't recall Jiren himself doing despite ... punching being pretty much his sthick.

Eh, breaking through dimensional boundaries has been a thing since Buu saga. First Super Buu and ssj3 Gotenks smashed out of the ROSAT and later Buuhan was threatening dimensional damage against Vegito.

Typically, breaking a dimensional barrier is actually a sign of poor control and fits the narrative of Broly being a hyper powerful newbie. IMO at least. Mileage and all that.

Jiren meanwhile overpowers Time itself and shakes a dimension by flexing his ki.

Also... anyone else notice a mass editing by Conn Seanery on multiple posts?? Wut?

[big_adventure]

It really comes down to what a fusion is supposed to be - it is supposed to be much stronger than it's component members together.

Goku at MUI casually toys with Jiren, so he's not unlimited. Vegeta at blue-er-er is beyond GoD level. Goku and Vegeta should both be at that level. If they fuse, it should be some level of exponential growth from there.

I don't think that Jiren is exponentially stronger than an un-exhausted Goku or Vegeta. Stronger definitely. But not "limitlessly" stronger.

As for judging what Gogeta does to Broly, well, you also have to remember that Gogeta doesn't want to kill Broly, only beat him.

All of that said, this isn't an argument I'd bet the rent on or anything.

Edit: this was a reply to Arby's question on the first page, btw.

[Siriel]

Also, Broly was quite clearly progressively powering up even without talking about his new forms. Most of the "limits" he was hitting were being announced by his father, who quite frankly new nothing about the depths of his strength. Like, Broly is shown on-screen powering up past the limits his father thinks he's reached AS Paragus is saying he reached them.

God Vegeta lays the dude out in one punch, pretty casually. Paragus goes "he's reached his limit" despite us seeing Broly start melting ice with a further power up. Vegeta then decides to flat out MURDER Broly with a blast, calling him a "waste" as Goku protests, lending credence to the idea that Vegeta is indeed going for a killing blow. Meaning he should be using a LOT more energy then his previous near KO punch.

Through just that brief moment of ice melting power up alone, Broly survives said blast. Like it hurts, but he's not maimed. Only THEN does he finally transform under the water - new eye color and everything. Paragus says he got the 10x Oozaru boost but judging how he flat out no sells Vegetas next face punch, it's clear he has ramped up way beyond what that multiplier would suggest.

Edit: Then there is also the yellow to green hair boost during Gogeta fight to lend credence that he can gain power without transforming. Then earlier there is also him getting his hands crushed, unable to escape against ssj1 Vegeta, but then moments later just powering up beyond that level without achieving any new form.

His ceiling was clearly elastic.

You've missed my point. There's a difference between powering up and getting a power up.

Broly has three forms during the movie, four if you want to count full power as a separate form; regular, angry and Super Saiyan.

Within each of those forms, he progressively powers up yes. But he's not gaining a power up. Base form Broly was always as strong as he got against God Vegeta, he just didn't access that power before because there was no need. Same for his angry mode.

The only actual "power up" he received in the movie was Super Saiyan, and he didn't get that through some kind of evolution or empowering ability, Freeza just triggered it the normal way.

Paragus says he got the 10x Oozaru boost but judging how he flat out no sells Vegetas next face punch, it's clear he has ramped up way beyond what that multiplier would suggest.

Setting aside that multipliers in Dragon Ball are always dumb, you don't need to be anywhere near 10x as strong as someone to ignore their hits.

If they fuse, it should be some level of exponential growth from there.

No fusion ever displays an exponential change in power (at least in the sense people usually use exponential), despite the dialogue hype. The biggest observable jump is Vegeto in the Buu arc, and even then Goku was already a fairly large fraction of Buu's strength by himself*.

*: People tend to forget it, but Buuhan was actually only about 3x as strong as regular Buu. Super Buu was around the same level as the original Fat Buu, and while Gohan was strong enough to kick his ass he was less than twice as strong, since Super Buu having absorbed someone that was roughly his own equal reversed the stomp.

Goku at MUI casually toys with Jiren

MUI Goku repeatedly got overpowered by Jiren while screaming in exertion and ultimately dealt more damage to himself than he inflicted on Jiren*, so this is flat-out wrong.

*: People thinking that he could have actually beaten Jiren if he'd "acted quicker" or something are missing that he exploded the moment he started moving to attack. He was already at his limits when Jiren collapsed; he'd have broken apart whenever he tried to land the finishing blow.

[BitVyper]

We don't need to assume arbitrarily high power multiples for fusions when there's observable comparisons happening on screen. There's really nothing to suggest factors of tens or hundreds.