Jiren vs. Gogeta

[big_adventure]

It really comes down to what a fusion is supposed to be - it is supposed to be much stronger than it's component members together.

Goku at MUI casually toys with Jiren, so he's not unlimited. Vegeta at blue-er-er is beyond GoD level. Goku and Vegeta should both be at that level. If they fuse, it should be some level of exponential growth from there.

I don't think that Jiren is exponentially stronger than an un-exhausted Goku or Vegeta. Stronger definitely. But not "limitlessly" stronger.

As for judging what Gogeta does to Broly, well, you also have to remember that Gogeta doesn't want to kill Broly, only beat him.

All of that said, this isn't an argument I'd bet the rent on or anything.

Edit: this was a reply to Arby's question on the first page, btw.

[Siriel]

Also, Broly was quite clearly progressively powering up even without talking about his new forms. Most of the "limits" he was hitting were being announced by his father, who quite frankly new nothing about the depths of his strength. Like, Broly is shown on-screen powering up past the limits his father thinks he's reached AS Paragus is saying he reached them.

God Vegeta lays the dude out in one punch, pretty casually. Paragus goes "he's reached his limit" despite us seeing Broly start melting ice with a further power up. Vegeta then decides to flat out MURDER Broly with a blast, calling him a "waste" as Goku protests, lending credence to the idea that Vegeta is indeed going for a killing blow. Meaning he should be using a LOT more energy then his previous near KO punch.

Through just that brief moment of ice melting power up alone, Broly survives said blast. Like it hurts, but he's not maimed. Only THEN does he finally transform under the water - new eye color and everything. Paragus says he got the 10x Oozaru boost but judging how he flat out no sells Vegetas next face punch, it's clear he has ramped up way beyond what that multiplier would suggest.

Edit: Then there is also the yellow to green hair boost during Gogeta fight to lend credence that he can gain power without transforming. Then earlier there is also him getting his hands crushed, unable to escape against ssj1 Vegeta, but then moments later just powering up beyond that level without achieving any new form.

His ceiling was clearly elastic.

You've missed my point. There's a difference between powering up and getting a power up.

Broly has three forms during the movie, four if you want to count full power as a separate form; regular, angry and Super Saiyan.

Within each of those forms, he progressively powers up yes. But he's not gaining a power up. Base form Broly was always as strong as he got against God Vegeta, he just didn't access that power before because there was no need. Same for his angry mode.

The only actual "power up" he received in the movie was Super Saiyan, and he didn't get that through some kind of evolution or empowering ability, Freeza just triggered it the normal way.

Paragus says he got the 10x Oozaru boost but judging how he flat out no sells Vegetas next face punch, it's clear he has ramped up way beyond what that multiplier would suggest.

Setting aside that multipliers in Dragon Ball are always dumb, you don't need to be anywhere near 10x as strong as someone to ignore their hits.

If they fuse, it should be some level of exponential growth from there.

No fusion ever displays an exponential change in power (at least in the sense people usually use exponential), despite the dialogue hype. The biggest observable jump is Vegeto in the Buu arc, and even then Goku was already a fairly large fraction of Buu's strength by himself*.

*: People tend to forget it, but Buuhan was actually only about 3x as strong as regular Buu. Super Buu was around the same level as the original Fat Buu, and while Gohan was strong enough to kick his ass he was less than twice as strong, since Super Buu having absorbed someone that was roughly his own equal reversed the stomp.

Goku at MUI casually toys with Jiren

MUI Goku repeatedly got overpowered by Jiren while screaming in exertion and ultimately dealt more damage to himself than he inflicted on Jiren*, so this is flat-out wrong.

*: People thinking that he could have actually beaten Jiren if he'd "acted quicker" or something are missing that he exploded the moment he started moving to attack. He was already at his limits when Jiren collapsed; he'd have broken apart whenever he tried to land the finishing blow.

[BitVyper]

We don't need to assume arbitrarily high power multiples for fusions when there's observable comparisons happening on screen. There's really nothing to suggest factors of tens or hundreds.

[Jcogginsa]

Assuming the movie scales to the anime despite the issues with that, for this to be even worth discussing;

The only statement we have that allows any real comparison is Goku stating that Broly 'might' be stronger than Beerus. By comparison, we have a direct statement by Whis that Jiren trumps Gods of Destruction as a whole, and obviously Whis wouldn't exclude the one he's most familiar with from a blanket statement.

Wasn't the statement that Jiren was stronger than A God of Destruction, not all gods of destruction? Genuinely asking, been a while since I watched it.

[Sub-Zero MKA]

Wasn't the statement that Jiren was stronger than A God of Destruction, not all gods of destruction? Genuinely asking, been a while since I watched it.

[The Arbiter]

You've missed my point. There's a difference between powering up and getting a power up.

Broly has three forms during the movie, four if you want to count full power as a separate form; regular, angry and Super Saiyan.

Within each of those forms, he progressively powers up yes. But he's not gaining a power up. Base form Broly was always as strong as he got against God Vegeta, he just didn't access that power before because there was no need. Same for his angry mode.

The only actual "power up" he received in the movie was Super Saiyan, and he didn't get that through some kind of evolution or empowering ability, Freeza just triggered it the normal way.

This actually makes a lot of sense to me and I would totally be cool accepting it under most circumstances.

Buuut... as DBZ proved to us, untrained pure saiyans like Paragus, Raditz etc had no real concept of concealing battle power or powering up beyond simple energy gathering (like Galick Gun etc). Raditz walked around at 1,200 (iirc) and had no real idea how to lower or raise it. He was totally flabbergasted that Goku and Piccolo could raise their power or conceal it to begin with. Vegeta again is like "Hmm they can hide their energies" and so on and seems rather puzzled initially.

Broly, who in part is defined by his green rookie nature - getting by on raw brute strength and ignorance, never had an experienced teacher to show him how to hide his max or "power up" beyond simple energy gathering. Despite this, we see him getting smacked around and held back by ssj1 Vegeta until suddenly... he's no longer at that level. He just ramped up. Goku goes on to declare "Whoa have you ever seen a saiyan like this before??" as if confused at his growth.

I would also say his Rage Mode is a distinct power up / transformation just like super saiyan. His physical characteristics change, as does his emotional reasoning. Paragus literally calls it an Oozaru based form.

[Jcogginsa]

Well to me that definitely seems like Whis saying Jiren is stronger than A God of Destruction (Specifically the one from his universe) not all of them.

[Sub-Zero MKA]

Well to me that definitely seems like Whis saying Jiren is stronger than A God of Destruction (Specifically the one from his universe) not all of them.

That's how I always saw it, too. And I believe the GoDs are all equal in power, so there's no way to tell where exactly Jiren would fall in that tier level.

[Jcogginsa]

That's how I always saw it, too. And I believe the GoDs are all equal in power, so there's no way to tell where exactly Jiren would fall in that tier level.

Not exactly. Pretty sure Beerus is confirmed as being stronger than Champa, though I could be remembering that wrong.

And in the Manga at least, there was a battle royale between the GoDs are IIRC most of them tried to gang up on Beerus.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Not exactly. Pretty sure Beerus is confirmed as being stronger than Champa, though I could be remembering that wrong.

And in the Manga at least, there was a battle royale between the GoDs are IIRC most of them tried to gang up on Beerus.

Yeah, but I think that was mainly because everybody was pissed at him, blaiming him and Goku for bringing about the situation at hand. Also, the manga isn't really applicable to the anime anyway.

So far I think that while there are differences between the various GoDs, there's still a general GoD level of power and that Jiren has surpassed that level.

[Captain Morgan]

Hey, has it been noted that Freiza didn't recognize fusion as a technique despite that happening in the tournament of power? I suppose it might have happened out of his line if awareness, butif not that suggests it takes place before the tournament. Then again, he seems to be alive, and he wasn't for any extended period before the tournament correct? So that means it probably doesn't really fit anywhere like most Dragonball movies.

[TheLastDalek]

Hey, has it been noted that Freiza didn't recognize fusion as a technique despite that happening in the tournament of power? I suppose it might have happened out of his line if awareness, butif not that suggests it takes place before the tournament. Then again, he seems to be alive, and he wasn't for any extended period before the tournament correct? So that means it probably doesn't really fit anywhere like most Dragonball movies.

Well we see Kefla during the brief flash back to the Tourniment of Power. So the movie aknowlages her and her the fusion that created her as canon.

My guess is Frieza didn't know that Goku and Vegeta could do it (especialy without the Potara). There are other continuity issues, even though it's meant to be canon. I would chalk that up to Toriyama ignoring most of the concepts that Toei intoduced and just using the plot outlines, he came up with as a guide for what happened during DBS.

[Siriel]

This actually makes a lot of sense to me and I would totally be cool accepting it under most circumstances.

Buuut... as DBZ proved to us, untrained pure saiyans like Paragus, Raditz etc had no real concept of concealing battle power or powering up beyond simple energy gathering (like Galick Gun etc). Raditz walked around at 1,200 (iirc) and had no real idea how to lower or raise it. He was totally flabbergasted that Goku and Piccolo could raise their power or conceal it to begin with. Vegeta again is like "Hmm they can hide their energies" and so on and seems rather puzzled initially.

Broly, who in part is defined by his green rookie nature - getting by on raw brute strength and ignorance, never had an experienced teacher to show him how to hide his max or "power up" beyond simple energy gathering. Despite this, we see him getting smacked around and held back by ssj1 Vegeta until suddenly... he's no longer at that level. He just ramped up. Goku goes on to declare "Whoa have you ever seen a saiyan like this before??" as if confused at his growth.

The movie explicitly shows us that Broly's power was fluctuating with his emotions even as a child with the pod scene, arguably like Gohan (though to a greater extent), which is why he was weaker when King Vegeta scanned him than when the scientists did it earlier. He was born with that trait.

I would also say his Rage Mode is a distinct power up / transformation just like super saiyan. His physical characteristics change, as does his emotional reasoning. Paragus literally calls it an Oozaru based form.

Angry mode is indeed another form, as I acknowledged. It's just one he innately had.

The one that isn't really a separate form is his green-haired Super Saiyan that exists to reference LSSJ. It's consistently stated to just be Super Saiyan's full power in all medias.

[Jcogginsa]

Yeah, but I think that was mainly because everybody was pissed at him, blaiming him and Goku for bringing about the situation at hand. Also, the manga isn't really applicable to the anime anyway.

So far I think that while there are differences between the various GoDs, there's still a general GoD level of power and that Jiren has surpassed that level.

See, I disagree on the idea that Jiren has surpassed all of them. There's certainly a minimum requirement for GoDs, but I don't think that means all of them are on the same level or that Jiren is stronger than all of them.

Assuming we can use Toppo as a minimum for GoD level, he was beaten by Vegeta, whose max was around the Level of Blue Kaioken Goku. If all GoDs were at the same level, that would mean that Goku had surpassed Beerus before the Tournament started, and there's little indication of that.

Furthermore, to get a bit speculative, if one considers the anime canon to the Broly movie, then Occam's Razor suggests that the reason Goku didn't pull Blue KaioKen out against Broly is that he was smart enough to tell that Blue Kaioken wouldn't be enough to beat him, and thus it wasn't worth risking the injuries. This would therefore reinforce the presumption that Beerus is above Blue Kaioken Goku.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

That clip had Whis saying that Jiren had "perhaps surpassed" the GoDs, didn't it ? Not sure why you'd take that to mean 100% undeniably surpassed all of the GoDs ever.