Jiren vs. Gogeta

[Siriel]

Not exactly. Pretty sure Beerus is confirmed as being stronger than Champa, though I could be remembering that wrong.

That was Vados making a joke about how fat Champa is.

They're otherwise presented as all being around roughly the same level; Whis says that Belmod is stronger than Beerus, though Beerus objects he lost at arm-wrestling.

The fact they can have those kind of contests at all implies they're either even or close enough that it's not clear who's stronger, which is reinforced by the four way battle that's held before the tournament starts. Considering that Belmod believed that Jiren losing in the tournament was flat-out impossible*, there's a pretty strong indication that Jiren stands far above them.

*: Keeping in mind that his own team fielded a future GoD.

That clip had Whis saying that Jiren had "perhaps surpassed" the GoDs, didn't it ? Not sure why you'd take that to mean 100% undeniably surpassed all of the GoDs ever.

Because that was Jiren three or four instances of powering up below his maximum, before he got another massive power-up from overcoming his trauma. Also while the first statement is ambiguous, the second ("There exists a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat.") is not.

"All the GoDs ever." don't matter; it's possible that there's one that's a massive outlier from the others*, but that's irrelevant here. The only one that matters is Beerus, because he's the one Broly is compared to. Whis wouldn't exclude the GoD he's most familiar with from a general statement, we have repeated indication that Beerus isn't an outlier from losing contests against Belmod to being treated as equal to Champa, and Beerus has a recurring routine in Super of getting mad whenever someone is implied to be stronger than him, which he doesn't do with Jiren.

*: But probably not since Beerus is treated as about equal to Champa, close enough to Belmod to have contests with him, and the GoDs of the universes that were exempt from the tournament were all shown to be roughly equal. Additionally all the remaining GoDs rose to bow to Goku when he reached the real Ultra Instinct, indicating that none of them have it, which you'd expect would be the case if one of them was a huge outlier from the others since that's what the angels are training them toward.

Assuming we can use Toppo as a minimum for GoD level, he was beaten by Vegeta, whose max was around the Level of Blue Kaioken Goku. If all GoDs were at the same level, that would mean that Goku had surpassed Beerus before the Tournament started, and there's little indication of that.

Goku is explicitly noted and shown to be getting stronger throughout the tournament.

[Jcogginsa]

That was Vados making a joke about how fat Champa is.

They're otherwise presented as all being around roughly the same level; Whis says that Belmod is stronger than Beerus, though Beerus objects he lost at arm-wrestling.

The fact they can have those kind of contests at all implies they're either even or close enough that it's not clear who's stronger, which is reinforced by the four way battle that's held before the tournament starts. Considering that Belmod believed that Jiren losing in the tournament was flat-out impossible*, there's a pretty strong indication that Jiren stands far above them.

*: Keeping in mind that his own team fielded a future GoD.



Because that was Jiren three or four instances of powering up below his maximum, before he got another massive power-up from overcoming his trauma. Also while the first statement is ambiguous, the second ("There exists a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat.") is not.

"All the GoDs ever." don't matter; it's possible that there's one that's a massive outlier from the others*, but that's irrelevant here. The only one that matters is Beerus, because he's the one Broly is compared to. Whis wouldn't exclude the GoD he's most familiar with from a general statement, we have repeated indication that Beerus isn't an outlier from losing contests against Belmod to being treated as equal to Champa, and Beerus has a recurring routine in Super of getting mad whenever someone is implied to be stronger than him, which he doesn't do with Jiren.

*: But probably not since Beerus is treated as about equal to Champa, close enough to Belmod to have contests with him, and the GoDs of the universes that were exempt from the tournament were all shown to be roughly equal. Additionally all the remaining GoDs rose to bow to Goku when he reached the real Ultra Instinct, indicating that none of them have it, which you'd expect would be the case if one of them was a huge outlier from the others since that's what the angels are training them toward.



Goku is explicitly noted and shown to be getting stronger throughout the tournament.

1. I don't think we have enough to go on to determine whether or not the GoDs are equals. Since we know GoDs can vary in strength thanks to Top being weaker than Beerus, assuming that they're all of uniform power doesn't seem warranted.

2. I would call the statement that you quote ambiguous. Every time I've heard it I interpreted it as saying that Jiren was stronger than his own God of Destruction, not all Gods of destruction.

3. I would assume that Whis was talking about Jiren's then-Maximum, not the power he was displaying while holding back. It's shown in Dragonball that sufficiently skilled warriors can sense the power that an individual is holding back, which is most likely what Whis was doing when talking about Jiren.

4. That doesn't disprove my point. Beerus never acts as if Goku has surpassed him when he uses Blue Kaioken, which he almost certainly would given their relaionship. Which means that Top is still weaker than the other GoDs

[Siriel]

2. I would call the statement that you quote ambiguous.

But it's not, it's a very straightforward statement.

Every time I've heard it I interpreted it as saying that Jiren was stronger than his own God of Destruction, not all Gods of destruction.

Because people are inexplicably desperate to consider Beerus as a special snowflake for some reason, despite all evidence that he's pretty bog-standard as far as the GoDs are concerned. Again, the only comparison between Beerus and Belmod places Belmod as his superior.

"A God of Destruction can't defeat him." is not ambiguous.

3. I would assume that Whis was talking about Jiren's then-Maximum, not the power he was displaying while holding back. It's shown in Dragonball that sufficiently skilled warriors can sense the power that an individual is holding back, which is most likely what Whis was doing when talking about Jiren.

Whis directly indicates that he's incapable of precisely gauging how much power Jiren has and is relying on impressions ("Jiren appears to be far from full power."), so no.

[Dark Soul # 7]

1. I don't think we have enough to go on to determine whether or not the GoDs are equals. Since we know GoDs can vary in strength thanks to Top being weaker than Beerus, assuming that they're all of uniform power doesn't seem warranted.

4. That doesn't disprove my point. Beerus never acts as if Goku has surpassed him when he uses Blue Kaioken, which he almost certainly would given their relaionship. Which means that Top is still weaker than the other GoDs

Toppo is weaker than the GoDs because he's a GoD in training and not a proper one yet.

Based on how the GoDs interact and the results from the few instances where we've seen them go up against each other, the best we can say for now is that they're all roughly equal. There's been no indication that there's any one of them that's leaps and bounds stronger than the others, or that there are noticeable tiers in anything besides their compotence in performing their divine duty.

Maybe there is a more defined ranking amongst them, or maybe one of them has a transformation or something that puts them above the others. We'll see. But for now, everything points to the GoDs being on par with one another.

[Jcogginsa]

But it's not, it's a very straightforward statement.



Because people are inexplicably desperate to consider Beerus as a special snowflake for some reason, despite all evidence that he's pretty bog-standard as far as the GoDs are concerned. Again, the only comparison between Beerus and Belmod places Belmod as his superior.

"A God of Destruction can't defeat him." is not ambiguous.



Whis directly indicates that he's incapable of precisely gauging how much power Jiren has and is relying on impressions ("Jiren appears to be far from full power."), so no.

1. No, it isn't. The way I, and most people that I've seen, interpret it is that Jiren is stronger than the God of Destruction of his world. In other words, believing that the statement refers to a specific GoD, not the GoDs as a group.

2. "A God of Destruction cannot defeat him" is way more clear cut than the way the it's worded in the show.

3. An Arm Wrestling contest is not the same as a fight.

4. Whis states that Jiren is stronger than a GoD after he says that he is far from his full power, implying that it is the full power which is stronger than the GoD, not what he is currently doing.

[The Arbiter]

Which GoD do you feel is more powerful than Jiren? Out of curiosity. Do you think any are?

Also, an armwrestle isn't a fight, but it's a decent representation (especially in fiction) of raw strength/power. So while a tiny MMA fighter might beat the crap out of giant strongman, they sure as heck aren't winning the armwrestle or power lifting event etc. Whis and so on can't sense "skill", only "power". Jiren has more power based on being rated higher then Belmod who himself is rated higher then Beerus. In terms of /power/.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Yea but isn't there a difference between physical strength and actual power output in DB past a certain point ? I don't see Goku punching a planet in half, but he can certainly blow one up and so on.

[The Arbiter]

Yea but isn't there a difference between physical strength and actual power output in DB past a certain point ? I don't see Goku punching a planet in half, but he can certainly blow one up and so on.

Typically, whoever has the higher power level can outmuscle the other person. In straight grapples and so. They are pretty intrinsically tied together. Without touching on beams vs punches, the higher power level almost ALWAYS shows that guy being physically stronger.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Typically, whoever has the higher power level can outmuscle the other person. In straight grapples and so. They are pretty intrinsically tied together. Without touching on beams vs punches, the higher power level almost ALWAYS shows that guy being physically stronger.

Makes sense.

What doesn't though, is statements weighing more than feats. Dragonball just get a pass ?

[The Arbiter]

Makes sense.

What doesn't though, is statements weighing more than feats. Dragonball just get a pass ?

No, of course not. But being fair, Belmod has zero feats beyond context and narrative. Should Raditz beat him? At least Raditz blew up a mountain. :P

[Siriel]

Yea but isn't there a difference between physical strength and actual power output in DB past a certain point ? I don't see Goku punching a planet in half, but he can certainly blow one up and so on.

There's a direct correlation between the two. The thing that doesn't directly correlate to power output is speed, since if they power up too much for their body to handle they start slowing down, as Trunks demonstrated, but even then the more generally powerful person is also faster (though they seem to have hit something of a diminishing return on that front lately since there haven't been any huge speed jumps).

Otherwise barring some kind of outlierish ability that's always paid attention to when it happens (such as Dyspo being abnormally fast or Black being abnormally durable) physical stats grow in tune with power.

Also why do you doubt Goku could punch a planet in half? Beerus has destroyed planets by physically ramming into them while trashing around because his food was too spicy, and he's never presented as any more powerful physically than in terms of energy compared to the rest of the cast, up to and including getting into physical brawls.

Makes sense.

What doesn't though, is statements weighing more than feats. Dragonball just get a pass ?

If you go purely by feats and ignore statements, Jiren trashes both Gogeta and Beerus without any effort whatsoever.

It's not even a fight; the only thing Gogeta has is an incomprehensible lightshow against a guy who spent an hour wailing on Freeza without even knocking the gold out of him, something that both Jiren and Toppo did with contemptuous ease.

Meanwhile Beerus' best feat is either blowing away something that base form Goku could tank for an extended period of time and Golden Freeza handled with no real effort, or countering a charged attack from Super Saiyan God Goku before he got any of the other power-ups he got in Super.

Or in other words, going solely by feats gives the exact same conclusion as statements but even moreso.

[jetengine]

Physical strength is usually tied to energy output because in DBZ you buff yourself physically and defensively with your ki. Its how Goku got took out by an ordinary laser beam yet can tank Jiren blasts. He didn't see it coming and was blindsided

[BitVyper]

The getting blindsided business has always been some mix of PIS and SvsFL that was only ever pulled out with massive plot contrivance. Goku had enough raw physical toughness in his early appearances, before he was even aware of ki as a concept, to take bullets and get smashed through huge rock formations, even in instances where his tail as being pulled, specifically rendering him helpless. "Powering up" wasn't a thing at all until the 23rd Budokai (and then, not even until the last fight), and that period includes Goku taking blasts from Piccolo Daimao. Things like a casually thrown rock hurting Goku because it caught him by surprise, or a tiny laser almost killing him don't really make any sense. If that kind of stuff worked, the characters would all be incredibly motivated to be alpha strikers (which is something Vegeta more or less spent DBZ unlearning because it doesn't work) instead of treating fights like energy marathons. Someone like Dyspo would be virtually unbeatable, because he'd be hitting people before their defenses were up.

For that matter, blindsiding Goku should be all but impossible to begin with. He casually reads the minds of his opponents and only needs a tiny bit of help to sense presences across light years. So it is, at best, extremely contrived.

[Noldere]

The getting blindsided business has always been some mix of PIS and SvsFL that was only ever pulled out with massive plot contrivance. Goku had enough raw physical toughness in his early appearances, before he was even aware of ki as a concept, to take bullets and get smashed through huge rock formations, even in instances where his tail as being pulled, specifically rendering him helpless. "Powering up" wasn't a thing at all until the 23rd Budokai (and then, not even until the last fight), and that period includes Goku taking blasts from Piccolo Daimao. Things like a casually thrown rock hurting Goku because it caught him by surprise, or a tiny laser almost killing him don't really make any sense. If that kind of stuff worked, the characters would all be incredibly motivated to be alpha strikers (which is something Vegeta more or less spent DBZ unlearning because it doesn't work) instead of treating fights like energy marathons. Someone like Dyspo would be virtually unbeatable, because he'd be hitting people before their defenses were up.

For that matter, blindsiding Goku should be all but impossible to begin with. He casually reads the minds of his opponents and only needs a tiny bit of help to sense presences across light years. So it is, at best, extremely contrived.

I seem to remember it being addressed in Super that Goku tends to let his guard down a lot in situations where it's unwise, like right after he thinks a fight is over or when he's with his friends and allies.

[Siriel]

The getting blindsided business has always been some mix of PIS and SvsFL that was only ever pulled out with massive plot contrivance. Goku had enough raw physical toughness in his early appearances, before he was even aware of ki as a concept, to take bullets and get smashed through huge rock formations, even in instances where his tail as being pulled, specifically rendering him helpless. "Powering up" wasn't a thing at all until the 23rd Budokai (and then, not even until the last fight), and that period includes Goku taking blasts from Piccolo Daimao. Things like a casually thrown rock hurting Goku because it caught him by surprise, or a tiny laser almost killing him don't really make any sense. If that kind of stuff worked, the characters would all be incredibly motivated to be alpha strikers (which is something Vegeta more or less spent DBZ unlearning because it doesn't work) instead of treating fights like energy marathons. Someone like Dyspo would be virtually unbeatable, because he'd be hitting people before their defenses were up.

Letting his guard down and relaxing is explicitly identified as a weakness that Goku picked up over the years, not something that applies to everyone. Goku by the time of Super is just a lot more relaxed than Kid Goku was, and its shown in his behavior too.

#18 called Krillin an idiot for losing his touch to the point he did a similar thing (resulting in him getting grazed by a bullet) and forced him to start training again.

I'd also note that the tiny laser was prepared by Freeza in advance, so who knows how powerful it was; he could have found a way to store a Death Beam from his Golden form for all we know, in which case it punching right through a relaxed base form Goku makes perfect sense.

He casually reads the minds of his opponents

I don't think this ever happens?