Is "Mutants will replace humans" supremacist rhetoric?

[PrezValentine]

Cyclops: ok, I gave you guys unlimited water, food and energy and all I "ask" is that you stop producing pointless weapons and go do something better.
The US and the Avengers: that's literally an attack against democracy and we need to give some FREEDOM to those poor mutants.

Seems fair and shows that all the actions that took us to Krakoa as response were very tame and respectful.

[spirit2011]

Sure, but we're not talking about Black Panther or Wonder Woman here. We're talking about a comic that presents a power fantasy in the form of an oppressed minority that doesn't actually exist, and whose members in most cases tend to look suspiciously like the straight white men that make up the bulk of the book's target audience, who are decidedly not being discriminated against in any real way. The narrative allows people to live out that rebellious fantasy of fighting against The Man, without having to ever actually suffer any of the injustices that would warrant that kind of attitude. When you start telling those with privilege that they're the real victims and that the unwashed masses of society are out to deny them their rightful place in the sun, well you can see the troubling implications there.

That is why I suggest more focus on POC characters

[LordUltimus]

Wasn't the Phoenix power making them insane? Like, Colossus was giving legs to whales and putting then on dry land while not changing anything else about their biology and leaving them to die.

[FUBAR007]

No one is calling you a neo-nazi. It's just a bit difficult to parse scoffing at 'the poor mutants' and claiming they're the real villains here when virtually all their big stories for the last two decades alone have been predicated on holocausts, misery and human-sponsored persecution and extermination.

It's that "human-sponsored" part that you keep over-exaggerating.

Morrison's Genoshan genocide - perpetrated by Cassandra Nova (not a normal human).

Decimation - perpetrated by Dr. Doom (a sorcerer, tech-enabled supervillain, and mad dictator of a fictional micro-state) via a mind-controlled Scarlet Witch (not a normal human).

Terrigen Mist problem - unintended consequence of Black Bolt (not a normal human) releasing the Mists to resolve a different crisis.

That leaves:

-The Purifiers' massacre of Xavier's students, led by William Stryker (a human, but a convicted terrorist operating w/o gov't sanction).

-Malcolm Colcord's incarnation of the Weapon X program, including the Neverland camp. IIRC, it was a secret "black program" run without the knowledge or approval of the general public.

-The mass anti-mutant vaccine program and Callaghan's ONE from Rosenberg's run. These can legitimately be said to have the backing of the human U.S. population writ large (or at least a sizable percentage thereof). But, even Rosenberg showed pro-mutant human protesters at points.

When, before now, have they had 'the upper hand' with humanity? Morrison's mutant renaissance came out of the Genoshan holocaust. Even the halcyon, overexposed what-other-franchises Marvel '90s had their one benefit concert ending in Xavier gunned down, followed by Operation Zero Tolerance and 616's first official Hound program (in X-Factor, and a thread that should be revisited IMO).

Xavier was gunned down by Stryfe (not a normal human).

The Hound program was part of OZT. It's head, Bowser, reported to Bastion.

OZT was ultimately shut down with the aid of...humans. Namely SHIELD and Sen. Robert Kelly.

You and your allies in this forum paint The Humans^TM as an undifferentiated monolith of genocidal racists acting in absolute, coordinated unison. That doesn't match what's in the stories.

[Triniking1234]

Not every non-Caucasian human is oppressed by the *checks notes* Man.

[People Of The Earth]

My Logic, You mean the logic of the fiction



I don't make up my interpretation of the fiction. It makes easier to roll with punches of different writer interpretations sometimes mutants are humans with a little extra juice and sometimes they are different species much in the same way Dogs and Wolves are different species. People keep ignoring the fiction to makeup their own stuff or the roll with was present in the past or another presentation. Good or Bad I roll with fiction they are telling.

Fair enough, that is a choice you are entitled to make in order to further your reading experience.
It falls on the various writers to espouse collectively one narrative and stick with it in their stories, as to avoid such configuration where, at one point, mutants are part of the Human race, and at another, they are not Humans at all but part of a new, alien-like specie.
But the downside of that, when that logic runs its course, is grim.

As I said, why should sapiens CARE about the interests of beings that consider themselves as non-humans?
That are depicted in-universe as such?
Whom any of them is susceptible to harm, kill, destroy randomly around them the day they awake their powers?
Whose radicals regularly war in the streets among civilians?
That just declared the planet will belong to them soon enough?

People (writers especially) love to play with the idea that mutants are this strange, mysterious group of individuals with inexplicable powers and impenetrable origins:
Where are they from? Why are they here? What do they want? Who are they? And so on and so forth...
But sometimes, they get engrossed so much with the concept they Simply go too far in the otherworldly, alien representation of mutants to the public at large, without paying attention to the repercussions.

Case in point here with that infographic.

Read the title: "branching humanity."
Look at the chart: both sapiens and mutant lines share the same root.
"They both are sister branches of Humanity, both are integral part of the Human specie": my words yesterday...
Have you even noticed that on the infographic before posting it?
The text is exactly what I was talking about yesterday, with the distancing of mutants from the rest of humanity, indexing mutants as non-Humans altogether.
Like extremists of all board do in-universe regularly btw.
Or like the text here does, thus flying in the face of the chart right above it.
Honest mistake or mishap here, who knows - the infographic is flawed regardless.

Novissimas are clearly shown as a splinter group from said common root with their dotted line attached to it, countrary to the plain lines that both sapiens and mutants have, but even they are considered as being part of humanity. Why would they be part of it, and not mutants? But I digress. You said you'll roll with the decision made by each writer in that regard, you can absolutely do that.

Also, you didn't adress the first part of my previous post about the formation of Krakoa and why people are having issue with Xavier and his X-Men being the ones heralding it, not with the existence of a mutant state itself.

[PrezValentine]

It's that "human-sponsored" part that you keep over-exaggerating.

Morrison's Genoshan genocide - perpetrated by Cassandra Nova (not a normal human).

Decimation - perpetrated by Dr. Doom (a sorcerer, tech-enabled supervillain, and mad dictator of a fictional micro-state) via a mind-controlled Scarlet Witch (not a normal human).

Terrigen Mist problem - unintended consequence of Black Bolt (not a normal human) releasing the Mists to resolve a different crisis.

That leaves:

-The Purifiers' massacre of Xavier's students, led by William Stryker (a human, but a convicted terrorist operating w/o gov't sanction).

-Malcolm Colcord's incarnation of the Weapon X program, including the Neverland camp. IIRC, it was a secret "black program" run without the knowledge or approval of the general public.

-The mass anti-mutant vaccine program and Callaghan's ONE from Rosenberg's run. These can legitimately be said to have the backing of the human U.S. population writ large (or at least a sizable percentage thereof). But, even Rosenberg showed pro-mutant human protesters at points.



Xavier was gunned down by Stryfe (not a normal human).

The Hound program was part of OZT. It's head, Bowser, reported to Bastion.

OZT was ultimately shut down with the aid of...humans. Namely SHIELD and Sen. Robert Kelly.

You and your allies in this forum paint The Humans^TM as an undifferentiated monolith of genocidal racists acting in absolute, coordinated unison. That doesn't match what's in the stories.

A slight correction: Donald Trask gave the order to kill the mutants in Genosha. Nova took him there, but the entire conversation shows that he was into doing fucked up stuff to mutants, like keeping mutant women and children as slaves. There is no indication of manipulation of his actions, so much so that he even asks Nova if the whole process will be painless and humane. If there was indication of telepathic tampering, sure, not a human. Since there isn't, that's another point for humanity.

Just pointing out a common mistake.

[People Of The Earth]

Cyclops: ok, I gave you guys unlimited water, food and energy and all I "ask" is that you stop producing pointless weapons and go do something better.
The US and the Avengers: that's literally an attack against democracy and we need to give some FREEDOM to those poor mutants.

The Phoenix Force killed BILLIONS on its way to Cyclops and his fellow quintet of benevolent dictators.
The Avengers will be forever right for not trusting their ability to handle this amount of power.

"Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Seems fair and shows that all the actions that took us to Krakoa as response were very tame and respectful.

As I said, no one is questionning the existence of Krakoa, it's the X-Men heralding it with Xavier that rub feathers the wrong way. Had they rebranded themselves as a new entity, rejecting the title of "X-Men" as definitely as they rejected Xavier's dream, people wouldn't be nearly as annoyed as they are.
It's like Hickman didn't go all the way to the conclusion of the path he set Xavier and his X-Men upon in HoX/DoX.

[PrezValentine]

The Phoenix Force killed BILLIONS on its way to Cyclops and his fellow quintet of benevolent dictators.
The Avengers will be forever right for not trusting their ability to handle this amount of power.

"Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."



As I said, no one is questionning the existence of Krakoa, it's the X-Men heralding it with Xavier that rub feathers the wrong way. Had they rebranded themselves as a new entity, rejecting the title of "X-Men" as definitely as they rejected Xavier's dream, people wouldn't be nearly as annoyed as they are.
It's like Hickman didn't go all the way to the conclusion of the path he set Xavier and his X-Men upon in HoX/DoX.

The Phoenix Force on its own destroyed planets. Before the Avengers' attack, the actions of the Phoenix Five were benevolent. Are you nearing the point of defending preemptive punishment? The attack on Utopia was based on the fear that the Five's actions would escalate into something worse when they didn't start that at this point in the story.

Also, it's their prerogative to name themselves X-Men or not. The fact that their stance changed is just a reflection of the times they live in. You don't win oppression with love or unicorn dreams. As long as the X-Men don't engage in unjustified violence or systematic oppression against humans, this whole argument of "they abandoned Xavier's dream" feels like empty sentiment.

[BroHomo]

I'm irked. You've really, sincerely, pissed me off by reducing my writing to neo-nazi talking points. I'm emotionally aware enough to acknowledge that. I'll try not to dwell on it.

You've become your idea of the X-Men!! Nice

[People Of The Earth]

The Phoenix Force on its own destroyed planets. Before the Avengers' attack, the actions of the Phoenix Five were benevolent.

The Phoenix Force had killed billions on its way to Earth - therefore, the Avengers were right to be wary of it.
Before the Avengers' attack, the Phoenix Five acted as dictators - therefore the Avengers were right to be wary of them.

Are you nearing the point of defending preemptive punishment?

No.
I'm just not pretending the Phoenix Force wasn't Dangerous contrary to some here.
And I'm not sugar-coating the fact the Phoenix Five were acting as dictators to the world either.
Whether I would personally be ok with a benevolent dictator or benevolent dictators ruling over the planet is irrelevant.

The attack on Utopia was based on the fear that the Five's actions would escalate into something worse when they didn't start that at this point in the story.

The Five weren't meant to receive the Phoenix Force, they weren't geared to handle it, never were in fact.
They would have Fallen prey to it eventually, regardless of the Avengers or anyone else speeding up the process along unvolontarily.

Also, it's their prerogative to name themselves X-Men or not. The fact that their stance changed is just a reflection of the times they live in.

It is their prerogative, true. Hence why I'm saying they are X-Men in name only, not in spirit.
Now you find it excusable given the times they live in, I Don't.

You don't win oppression with love or unicorn dreams.

If that's what you have actually retained from what Xavier's dream stand for, surely you have been missing the point of the X-Men existing in the first place for a very long time. That's the whole Reason of their creation.

As long as the X-Men don't engage in unjustified violence or systematic oppression against humans, this whole argument of "they abandoned Xavier's dream" feels like empty sentiment.

Case in point: there is much more to Xavier's dream than it Simply consisting in "NOT using unjustified violence on sapiens" and "NOT engaging in systematic oppression against sapiens". Of course, if that's the gist of said dream for you, I'm not surprised at all by your denial - THAT would be what emptyness feels like.

[Knives]

About Phoenix, the problem is that the Avengers never gave the Phoenix 5 the benefit of the doubt. They simply assumed they were evil before they even gave any sign that they were losing control.

What the Avengers did is the same as the USA did in Iraq or Russia with the Crimea. Preventive attacks intended to remove a potential threat to your interests.
It is not a question of whether the threat was real or not the only thing that matters is the possibility. The Sentinels and the various attempts to cause mutant extinction are just attacks against a threat to humanity from the point of view of humans.


Before Krakoa:

MG X-mens.jpg

After Krakoa:

Krakoa 01.jpg


I won't blame mutants for wanting to distance themselves from humans.

[spirit2011]

About Phoenix, the problem is that the Avengers never gave the Phoenix 5 the benefit of the doubt. They simply assumed they were evil before they even gave any sign that they were losing control.

What the Avengers did is the same as the USA did in Iraq or Russia with the Crimea. Preventive attacks intended to remove a potential threat to your interests.
It is not a question of whether the threat was real or not the only thing that matters is the possibility. The Sentinels and the various attempts to cause mutant extinction are just attacks against a threat to humanity from the point of view of humans.


Before Krakoa:

MG X-mens.jpg

After Krakoa:

Krakoa 01.jpg


I won't blame mutants for wanting to distance themselves from humans.

First one has nothing to do with humans

[Zelena]

About Phoenix, the problem is that the Avengers never gave the Phoenix 5 the benefit of the doubt. They simply assumed they were evil before they even gave any sign that they were losing control.

What the Avengers did is the same as the USA did in Iraq or Russia with the Crimea. Preventive attacks intended to remove a potential threat to your interests.
It is not a question of whether the threat was real or not the only thing that matters is the possibility. The Sentinels and the various attempts to cause mutant extinction are just attacks against a threat to humanity from the point of view of humans.


Before Krakoa:

MG X-mens.jpg

After Krakoa:

Krakoa 01.jpg


I won't blame mutants for wanting to distance themselves from humans.

I won't never blame people for wanting distance themselves from other people who are trying to harm them. The problem is the rhetoric. It is a message sent that doesn't lay a sane foundation for future relationships.

[BroHomo]

First on ehas nothing to do with humans

Uh how they were literally dragging mutants to the Mass grave a few pages before this

I won't never blame people for wanting distance themselves from other people who are trying to harm them. The problem is the rhetoric. It is a message sent that doesn't lay a sane foundation for future relationships.

I'm sure the mutants are cool with that