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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    None of this negates the fact that the Phoenix Five were 5 persons deciding over the destiny of the world. They were fixing things? yes but you can not rule 7.000 milliom of persons just because you have the power to decide even if is better for the world. People has the right to decide even if that will makes things worse. Reed of all people created a council to control de destiny of the world in shadows , of course He thought the P5 were great idea.

    And the new Tian, doesnt negate anything. Is just more awful , is Beast and Emma crying because their little fascist state is falling and saying that is an inspiration for the mutantkind.
    The P5 weren't ruling anyone. They were eliminating war, and bringing food, water, and energy to the planet. Simply asking people not to kill each other pointlessly is hardly fascism.

    And New Tian was the best of a bad situation. It was either "get your own country and undermine Nazi Cap or die".

  2. #77
    Fantastic Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Mutantkind's options during Secret Empire were "Appease and undermine" or "Die". Those were the options.
    That or 'fight back' which pretty much every other hero organization did. Secret Empire had terrible writing, and like HoXPoX suffered from skipping the set up. In this case, the part where Hydra actually took over everything and just instantly had them as an unstoppable force with everyone on the ropes, at least after the dome went up and New York got teleported away.

    In every other genocide situation the X-men have gone up against, fighting back is always shown to be the right choice. Why was it not in this case? They didn't really do much to undermine Hydra, and only seriously joined the fight when the heroes already had them on the ropes. Emma giving away their Cosmic Cube shard didn't help.

    It still felt like mutants were willing to tolerate the Nazi as long as the Nazis didn't target them, specifically. Nobody came out of Secret Empire looking good

  3. #78
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    That or 'fight back' which pretty much every other hero organization did. Secret Empire had terrible writing, and like HoXPoX suffered from skipping the set up. In this case, the part where Hydra actually took over everything and just instantly had them as an unstoppable force with everyone on the ropes, at least after the dome went up and New York got teleported away.

    In every other genocide situation the X-men have gone up against, fighting back is always shown to be the right choice. Why was it not in this case? They didn't really do much to undermine Hydra, and only seriously joined the fight when the heroes already had them on the ropes. Emma giving away their Cosmic Cube shard didn't help.

    It still felt like mutants were willing to tolerate the Nazi as long as the Nazis didn't target them, specifically. Nobody came out of Secret Empire looking good
    Nazi Cap had the government, which meant he had the Sentinels. And while the remaining X-Men might be able to fight back slightly against that, the mutant civilians that would get targeted would not. It would have been a bloody slaughter that wouldn't stop Nazi Cap, or even slow him down.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    The P5 weren't ruling anyone. They were eliminating war, and bringing food, water, and energy to the planet. Simply asking people not to kill each other pointlessly is hardly fascism.

    And New Tian was the best of a bad situation. It was either "get your own country and undermine Nazi Cap or die".
    You cant eliminate war and declare Pax Utopia and say that they were not ruling. Its say the world " Obey us or you will suffer the consecuences " .

    Eliminate War is a good thing : yes . You cant impose peace to the hole world by fear : no . That is oppression a benevolent oppression but an oppression after all. Its sacrifce freedom to get security
    Last edited by hulkling; 11-21-2019 at 07:51 PM.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    You cant eliminate war and declare Pax Utopia and say that they were not ruling. Its say the world " Obey us or you will suffer the consecuences " .
    And yet they didn't actually do anything wrong until the Avengers attacked them for 12th or 13th time, punched a child unconscious, kidnapped Hope Summers, and armed themselves with the whole reason the Phoenix needed to come back in the first place in Wanda Maximoff.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    And yet they didn't actually do anything wrong until the Avengers attacked them for 12th or 13th time, punched a child unconscious, kidnapped Hope Summers, and armed themselves with the whole reason the Phoenix needed to come back in the first place in Wanda Maximoff.
    Declaring Pax utopia was already wrong and that was before the avengers attacked them. 5 people can not decide over the destiny of the world no matter how good or pure their intentions are.
    Last edited by hulkling; 11-21-2019 at 07:56 PM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    Declaring Pax utopia was already wrong and that was before the avengers attacked them. 5 people can not decide over the destiny of the world no matter how good or pure their intentions are.
    The Avengers had attacked them four or five times before they declared Pax Utopia.

  8. #83
    Fantastic Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    "Mutants will replace humans" is absolutely supremacist talk. Every group convinced of their own genetic superiority says the same thing. Their genes are superior, and their domination is inevitable.

    It has more to do with a fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution is and how it works. There is no 'inevitability' to evolution. No end goal. Its a super common trope in scifi works, and its kind of a hack move to use it. Its not even really 'survival of the fittest', not quite. Evolution both pushes FORWARD as much as it presses BACKWARD. Its 'survival of the fittest' mixed with 'tall-poppy syndrome'.

    Like, if you have a flower that has a gene that causes it to grow taller and larger than the rest. This would make that flower 'stronger' than other flowers in a sense. But by being taller and larger, it is a bigger target for predators and parasites. It also keeps sunlight from getting too other flowers, causing them to not grow near it and making it harder to pass on its genes.

    Essentially, if your genes make you, individually, 'better', but make you target, you failing to survive is just as much an act of evolution as it would be if it gave you survive. Getting cast out of your group because of your differences, or even eliminated by predators or your own species, is evolution at work. There is nothing 'unnatural' about humankind eliminating mutants, even if its with Sentinels or vaccines. Its still a form of evolution.

    Moira's stupid future plotlines don't tell us anything. We got so few details on how those situations came about, and the big ones were set so far into the future as to be totally removed from everything going on the Marvel Universe. They were just a drop in the ocean of 'bad future' plotlines that have existed in Marvel. Hell, both Ironheart, New Avengers and All-New Wolverine had GOOD futures where everything worked out fine for everyone, so there's nothing 'inevitable' about any of it. We don't even know for certain that those universes stopped existing when she died. In some of them, mutants could have been fine after she was gone. In at least one of them, mutants survived by going all mad scientist with their genes and making chimera mutant super soldiers, which is just as 'unnatural' as the robots!

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    "Mutants will replace humans" is absolutely supremacist talk. Every group convinced of their own genetic superiority says the same thing. Their genes are superior, and their domination is inevitable.

    It has more to do with a fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution is and how it works. There is no 'inevitability' to evolution. No end goal. Its a super common trope in scifi works, and its kind of a hack move to use it. Its not even really 'survival of the fittest', not quite. Evolution both pushes FORWARD as much as it presses BACKWARD. Its 'survival of the fittest' mixed with 'tall-poppy syndrome'.

    Like, if you have a flower that has a gene that causes it to grow taller and larger than the rest. This would make that flower 'stronger' than other flowers in a sense. But by being taller and larger, it is a bigger target for predators and parasites. It also keeps sunlight from getting too other flowers, causing them to not grow near it and making it harder to pass on its genes.

    Essentially, if your genes make you, individually, 'better', but make you target, you failing to survive is just as much an act of evolution as it would be if it gave you survive. Getting cast out of your group because of your differences, or even eliminated by predators or your own species, is evolution at work. There is nothing 'unnatural' about humankind eliminating mutants, even if its with Sentinels or vaccines. Its still a form of evolution.

    Moira's stupid future plotlines don't tell us anything. We got so few details on how those situations came about, and the big ones were set so far into the future as to be totally removed from everything going on the Marvel Universe. They were just a drop in the ocean of 'bad future' plotlines that have existed in Marvel. Hell, both Ironheart, New Avengers and All-New Wolverine had GOOD futures where everything worked out fine for everyone, so there's nothing 'inevitable' about any of it. We don't even know for certain that those universes stopped existing when she died. In some of them, mutants could have been fine after she was gone. In at least one of them, mutants survived by going all mad scientist with their genes and making chimera mutant super soldiers, which is just as 'unnatural' as the robots!
    If your argument is "Everything Hickman is saying in his story is wrong", that's not a very strong argument.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    "Mutants will replace humans" is absolutely supremacist talk. .
    Nope, It is just factual stuff. It is basically the same thing when someone say Latino will be majority in the US at some point in the future around 2045. And mutants are more inevitable in their universe than this scenario.It is just simple math

    Human+ Human produces mutants
    Human + Mutant produces mutants
    Mutant + Mutant produces mutants

    If humans don't commit acts of genocide, Mutants(humans) will replace regular Humans.

  11. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Fang X View Post
    It's not supremacist rhetoric, it's stating evolutionary and biological fact. Taking into account of the findings of the scientists of the MU have proved this statement to be true for decades now, I don't see the reason for alarm, unless many that heard Charles' message were already hostile towards mutants. Hell, the average flatscan in the MU are hostile to other flatscans for arbitrary reasons as current. The main reason organizations such as ORICHIS exists is due to the irrational fear of replacement and using that to justify creating weapons of genocide with much of said technology having been created by prominent figures in the MU (Richards, Stark, Brashear, etc.), which was brought to the world's attention by Dr. Bruce Banner/the Hulk. As a result of this irrational fear, flatscans use the various mutates (many of the Avengers, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, etc.) as proxies, and most likely, humankind's final line of defense against the perceived aggression of mutants.

    In other words: the idea of there being mutant supremacist rhetoric is just another excuse for hostile human supremacists to make some grand call to arms, which could very well be their final chance at staving off said "replacement" instead of allowing evolution and nature run their respective course.
    It's not a fact, though. It's not even an absolute. In Kang's era, humans are still the dominant race. By the Infinity watch era, we've spread across the galaxy and are just as important as the Kree and the Shi'ar. Not to put too fine a point on it but exactly when are our glorious replacements meant to put us aside?
    The woman in the shadows with the elegant sigh.
    What could a common man do to catch her eye?
    Her easy manner shames me, oh I hate myself so much!
    I tremble and I'm breathless and I'm begging for her touch.
    She sees my anguished urges but continues smirking by,
    If I dare to follow her, it's likely that I'll die.
    But even as she's feeding, as my body's torn apart,
    Will she think upon me kindly?
    When she slowly eats my heart?

  12. #87
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    Maybe in this tenth life of Moira X? Additive, not destructive. The mandate guarantees mutantkind cannot fail (until Hickman steps down[?]).
    Genkai nante nai (No limits), Zettai nante nai (No absolutes)

    The Current Hill that I Risk Dying On: #KrakoaNEVERMYXMEN
    "I promise, I'll definitely save you. With my tenth and final life, I WILL PROTECT YOU, MUTANDOKA!" ~HoMoira Kinross Akemi

  13. #88
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    We all know Moira's ten lives are but a droplet into the sea of alternate futures we've witnessed throughout the years in Marvel Comics. And there's all chance we'll keep getting stories about alternate futures long after that run has ended too.

    So, the whole "inevitability of mutants replacing sapiens" stuff is shallow talk to the extreme in that context - as pointed out before there are many futures where it's sapiens who Triumph over mutants. I'm pretty sure there was one where even the Inhumans triumphed over mutants...
    Bottom line being, the protagonists themselves in-universe know that there is no such thing as "inevitability".

    They are aware that it's a "mutants will replace sapiens, IF x/y/z things happen" type of scenario.
    Not a "mutants will replace sapiens, REGARDLESS of x/y/z things happening" type of scenario.
    That's the whole point of creating a nation on Krakoa in the first place.

    Charles using such rhetoric in his statement to the world when he knows for a fact mutants didn't Triumph in any of Moira lives is only expressing a conviction that he has about his kind (mutants) regarding the rest of humanity.
    He doubles down on that conviction when he says his kind (mutants) are the TRUE inheritors of Earth - implying that the rest of humanity are fake inheritors as a result. Usurpers.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    You mean the Phoenix doing its job and burning away a world that Terrax had stopped the progression of life on?
    First off, the Phoenix destroyed multiple inhabited worlds on its way to Earth, not just one.
    That's billions gone because of it before the beginning of the story.
    Second of all, what about the simple right to LIVE for those billions, regardless of what external entities think of a world's evolution/supposed stagnation?
    There's no justification to the genocides the Phoenix committed on its way to Earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Considering the Phoenix had also saved the planet multiple times, and the universe itself at least twice, letting it go to the people that have the most experience with it rather than trying to storm an island of innocents and start a war seems like the better option.
    When AvX started, the Phoenix wasn't saving anyone though, on the countrary it was Killing billions on its way to Earth. Any concern anyone had about it was entirely justiified as a result.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Nope, It is just factual stuff. It is basically the same thing when someone say Latino will be majority in the US at some point in the future around 2045. And mutants are more inevitable in their universe than this scenario.It is just simple math

    Human+ Human produces mutants
    Human + Mutant produces mutants
    Mutant + Mutant produces mutants

    If humans don't commit acts of genocide, Mutants(humans) will replace regular Humans.
    Human + human doesnt create mutant , human + human with a latent X-gene from a mutant ancestor create a mutant.

    The "true mutants" would be Apocalyse, Selene and all the ancient mutants that diseminated their X-gene creating many human offspring with latent genes.

    And we know cases of mutants + mutant with human offspring. Akkaba Coven formed by human members of the Akkaba clan.

    Example of the children of the vault : Several human in an insolated habitat after 6.000 years of evolution didnt have a single X-gene.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamFTF View Post
    You know, I never really believed that though. And it was always guys like Magneto going on about "Homo Superior" and replacing humanity. Xavier pretty much never did.
    Xavier has always talked out of both sides of his mouth, and preferred to just not mention the replacement or the E-Gene. His idea was for the baselines to step into that good night with a smile and singing Kumbaya.

    Its a much less attractive thing than youd think

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