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  1. #61
    Incredible Member MosSuperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    In all the story of the X-men anytime the have a bit of power over humanity they used it to oppress other. It happened in New Tian, in the House of M , the age of Apocalypse, with the Phoenix Five.

    Why would be different this time?
    They never really move past that point do they?vl4eqakfrpr21.jpg

  2. #62
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    In all the story of the X-men anytime the have a bit of power over humanity they used it to oppress other. It happened in New Tian, in the House of M , the age of Apocalypse, with the Phoenix Five.

    Why would be different this time?
    Was Hydra not in full power using New Tian? In fact, they saved Max Modell and all the scientists from Hydra. Who was being oppressed in House of M? What were the Phoenix Five doing to hut humanity before get payed around by the Avengers at every turn?

    Final question, who stopped Age of Apocalypse?

  3. #63
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Interesting point you raise. Novissima is the result of humans tampering with their own evolution, Inhuman is the result of a spacefaring alien empire tampering with human evolution, and mutant is the result of entities beyond human (or alien) comprehension tampering with human evolution. Of course, the same cosmic entities that gave the Marvel Universe mutants also gave us mutates, who need an external catalyst (often some form of radiation or radioactive material) to manifest or activate superpowers instead of a spontaneous activation during puberty like with most mutants.
    Indeed.

    It's a little fact that gets overlooked easily enough lately, to push forth the "natural vs artificial" debate in the X-books, concerning the différent types of humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Phalanx Ascension is absolutely not a good thing, especially when we’ve been told that Novissima want to use it to stop Moira. Unless you’re also one of those people that think the Human Instrumentality Project is also a good thing. Mutantkind, as is established as of now, is a natural evolution of humanity while whatever they’re doing now to bridge their own evolution leading them to be slaves to advanced Sentinels and eventually eliminated/turned into Novissima so they can rule outside time and space.
    1. It's as false a narrative as mutants being their own separate species. Mutants are humans, the same way Sapiens are humans.
    2. Mutants exist only thanks to the Celestials experimenting on early Humanity. As of now, they're the result of their tampering, not of "natural" évolution.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Was Hydra not in full power using New Tian? In fact, they saved Max Modell and all the scientists from Hydra. Who was being oppressed in House of M? What were the Phoenix Five doing to hut humanity before get payed around by the Avengers at every turn?

    Final question, who stopped Age of Apocalypse?
    House of M ; all the humanity they were second class citiens like black people before the civil rights. And there were many mutants saying that Magneto was soft with humans because wanda was believed to be a human in that world, that humans should have even less rights
    Phoenix Five: Just five people telling the whole world that now they are in charge so anyone against them is a criminal. Super fair! Not oppression at all! they even appeared in the united nations declaring their rule over the world : Pax Utopia
    New Tian : Emma was the one in charge in New Tian , Hydran gave them that territory because they didnt wanted to deal with mutants yet and mutants wanted a homeland so it was a temporal agreement. But Hydran didnt have any power over the intern goverment , the reeducation camps were all mutant cuture

    Age of Apocalyse : I didnt read the event really I only know that is a horrible world ruled by Apocalypse where the strongest mutant oppress others
    Last edited by hulkling; 11-21-2019 at 05:53 PM.

  5. #65
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    I guess the member of the Nova corps who barely survived an encounter with the Phoenix destroying planets was just a useful idiot?
    I'm Always confused when that point is brought up in AvX debates. The Phoenix was FACTUALLY destroying inhabited planets on its way to Earth in that story.
    Billions were killed before it remotely approached Earth.
    It WAS dangerous
    The Phoenix was on such a massive rampage, there were even bets being made by aliens on what world would perish next... The Avengers were sensible in being extremely wary of it, regardless of how derailed by editorial was the Phoenix mythos in order to achieve that.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  6. #66
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    House of M ; all the humanity they were second class citiens like black people before the civil rights. And there were many mutants saying that Magneto was soft with humans because wanda was believed to be a human in that world, that humans should have even less rights
    Phoenix Five: Just five people telling the whole world that now they are in charge so anyone against them is a criminal. Super fair! Not oppression at all! they even appeared in the united nations declaring their rule over the world : Pax Utopia
    New Tian : Emma was the one in charge in New Tian , Hydran gave them that territory because they didnt wanted to deal with mutants yet and mutants wanted a homeland so it was a temporal agreement. But Hydran didnt have any power over the intern goverment , the reeducation camps were all mutant cuture

    Age of Apocalyse : I didnt read the event really I only know that is a horrible world ruled by Apocalypse where the strongest mutant oppress others
    HoM: Oh I forgot it wasn’t only “giving everyone their perfect reality” but switching the positions of mutants and humans.

    P5:

    nuff said.

    New Tian:

    nuff said.

    AoA: Mutants were being oppressed too. Apocalypse ran a dictatorship and the X-Men ended up stopping and killing him, trying to restore the world back to normal in the wake of Apocalypse’s death.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    I'm Always confused when that point is brought up in AvX debates. The Phoenix was FACTUALLY destroying inhabited planets on its way to Earth in that story.
    Billions were killed before it remotely approached Earth.
    It WAS dangerous
    The Phoenix was on such a massive rampage, there were even bets being made by aliens on what world would perish next... The Avengers were sensible in being extremely wary of it, regardless of how derailed by editorial was the Phoenix mythos in order to achieve that.
    Exactly. In fact Hala was nearly destroyed as well (not that it helped in the long run). If I'm one of Earth's Mightiest Heroes, my order of priority is a) Protect the planet and somewhere way down on the list is restart the mutant gene if I even care at all about it. Given the evidence and the stakes, no reasonable person is going to jeopardize the planet and all life on it, in the hope that a definitively destructive force headed that way is only coming to take a host and restart the X-gene. That's just not going to happen. If Galactus showed up on top of the Baxter Building just to have a conversation with Mr. Fantastic, you can bet every super being on the planet goes to Red Alert....BECAUSE.

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    HoM: Oh I forgot it wasn’t only “giving everyone their perfect reality” but switching the positions of mutants and humans.

    P5:

    nuff said.

    New Tian:

    nuff said.

    AoA: Mutants were being oppressed too. Apocalypse ran a dictatorship and the X-Men ended up stopping and killing him, trying to restore the world back to normal in the wake of Apocalypse’s death.
    Falling upon deaf ears.

  9. #69
    Fantastic Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Everything about AvX was stupid and badly written from the get go. Same for New Tian and Secret Empire. Beast being all "it was a good try, Emma." disgusted me to no end. Every single thing about it was awful. Basically, mutantkind decides to work with the Nazis, including Magneto, in the hopes that they can placate the Nazis for a while and avoid destruction. Everyone knew this was temporary, so there was no point in acting like it was some kind of dream come true. Hydra looked stupid for letting a group of people as powerful as the X-men stick around in the first place; and the mutants looked disgusting for being willing to sell out the rest of the country/world in exchange for a place of their own.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    I guess the member of the Nova corps who barely survived an encounter with the Phoenix destroying planets was just a useful idiot?
    You mean the Phoenix doing its job and burning away a world that Terrax had stopped the progression of life on?

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    How do you mean? The inevitability? (Sorry I can be dense as hell!)
    Exactly. I never believed it was some inevitable thing that mutants would replace humanity no matter what Magneto (or Morrison) said. Especially if the argument was "evolution". How is people having a million random-ass superpowers believable as environmental adaptation? I always figured the best case end-scenario and the one most likely is humans and mutants living in harmony as two offshoots of the same species.

  12. #72
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    HoM: Oh I forgot it wasn’t only “giving everyone their perfect reality” but switching the positions of mutants and humans.

    P5:

    nuff said.

    New Tian:

    nuff said.

    AoA: Mutants were being oppressed too. Apocalypse ran a dictatorship and the X-Men ended up stopping and killing him, trying to restore the world back to normal in the wake of Apocalypse’s death.
    Pretty much this, especially the last part. Apocalypse as we usually know him couldn't care less about anyone he judged to be "weak," human or mutant, so a lot of mutants ended up in very bad ways under his reign.

    As for Secret Empire, I recall Emma also musing in the Omega issue that while humanity can cheer for the end of fascist rule under HYDRA-Cap and the restoration of some semblance of democratic order, mutants in the Marvel Universe have always lived under fascism, even in supposedly enlightened and democratic "first world" societies. Mutant rights have never been respected by those with power and authority, no matter where in the world they are. Mutant lives have never been regarded in human society as though they mattered equally to human lives. Concentration camps for mutants have been established repeatedly in the Marvel Universe, a lot of times by or on behalf of governments around the world, and extrajudicial murder of mutants by human authority figures has rarely if ever been punished in human courts. If that's not fascism . . .

    And going to that page from AvX, Reed Richards (for once, maybe) had it right when he called out Captain America and Iron Man for stubbornly insisting on antagonizing the Phoenix Five, who started out helping the world by ending famines, wars, and droughts all over the planet instead of burning it to a cinder for how humanity treated mutants over the years. Maybe it was inevitable that they would lose control eventually, but like how Jean Grey only lost control of the Phoenix after Mastermind (with help from Emma Frost) ate away at her sanity with his illusions to manipulate and control her, the Five only started losing it after continued attacks on them by the Avengers as led by Captain America and Iron Man, making it clear to them that even with what they were doing to benefit the world, they would still be feared, hated, and demonized for existing. That was what really set them off in the end, the Avengers acting as the defenders and vanguard of a human race that would reject and seek to destroy them no matter what good they did.

    Going on the overall argument that if mutants had their way, they would be oppressing humans . . . well, as even Dawn of X has shown, that's not exactly true. Are there mutants who would love to be lording it over the human race? Yes, there are. The overwhelming mentality, though, is that like the classic Hulk, they just want to be left the hell alone to develop their society and culture and civilization in peace, and if humanity could be counted on to do that, they would do likewise. Being a nation-state in their own legally recognized right just means it'll be geopolitically problematic, if not costly, to attack mutants openly like human governments and authorities would have done in the past.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  13. #73
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Everything about AvX was stupid and badly written from the get go. Same for New Tian and Secret Empire. Beast being all "it was a good try, Emma." disgusted me to no end. Every single thing about it was awful. Basically, mutantkind decides to work with the Nazis, including Magneto, in the hopes that they can placate the Nazis for a while and avoid destruction. Everyone knew this was temporary, so there was no point in acting like it was some kind of dream come true. Hydra looked stupid for letting a group of people as powerful as the X-men stick around in the first place; and the mutants looked disgusting for being willing to sell out the rest of the country/world in exchange for a place of their own.
    Mutantkind's options during Secret Empire were "Appease and undermine" or "Die". Those were the options.

  14. #74
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    Exactly. In fact Hala was nearly destroyed as well (not that it helped in the long run). If I'm one of Earth's Mightiest Heroes, my order of priority is a) Protect the planet and somewhere way down on the list is restart the mutant gene if I even care at all about it. Given the evidence and the stakes, no reasonable person is going to jeopardize the planet and all life on it, in the hope that a definitively destructive force headed that way is only coming to take a host and restart the X-gene. That's just not going to happen. If Galactus showed up on top of the Baxter Building just to have a conversation with Mr. Fantastic, you can bet every super being on the planet goes to Red Alert....BECAUSE.
    Considering the Phoenix had also saved the planet multiple times, and the universe itself at least twice, letting it go to the people that have the most experience with it rather than trying to storm an island of innocents and start a war seems like the better option.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    HoM: Oh I forgot it wasn’t only “giving everyone their perfect reality” but switching the positions of mutants and humans.

    P5:

    nuff said.

    New Tian:

    nuff said.

    AoA: Mutants were being oppressed too. Apocalypse ran a dictatorship and the X-Men ended up stopping and killing him, trying to restore the world back to normal in the wake of Apocalypse’s death.

    None of this negates the fact that the Phoenix Five were 5 persons deciding over the destiny of the world. They were fixing things? yes but you can not rule 7.000 milliom of persons just because you have the power to decide even if is better for the world. People has the right to decide even if that will makes things worse. Reed of all people created a council to control de destiny of the world in shadows , of course He thought the P5 were great idea.

    And the new Tian, doesnt negate anything. Is just more awful , is Beast and Emma crying because their little fascist state is falling and saying that is an inspiration for the mutantkind.

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