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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    If your argument is "Everything Hickman is saying in his story is wrong", that's not a very strong argument.
    Hickman isnt saying that mutants will replace humanity. In fact Hickman is saying that mutants will NEVER replace humanity that a conflict against the humanity will lead to the extermination of mutantkind always.

    Chales and Magneto are depicted as proud and stupid. Hickman story even stablish that mutants are by definition less intelligent that humans, even the most intelligent mutant is not near of Stark , Richards , etc.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    "Mutants will replace humans" is absolutely supremacist talk. Every group convinced of their own genetic superiority says the same thing. Their genes are superior, and their domination is inevitable.

    It has more to do with a fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution is and how it works. There is no 'inevitability' to evolution. No end goal. Its a super common trope in scifi works, and its kind of a hack move to use it. Its not even really 'survival of the fittest', not quite. Evolution both pushes FORWARD as much as it presses BACKWARD. Its 'survival of the fittest' mixed with 'tall-poppy syndrome'.

    Like, if you have a flower that has a gene that causes it to grow taller and larger than the rest. This would make that flower 'stronger' than other flowers in a sense. But by being taller and larger, it is a bigger target for predators and parasites. It also keeps sunlight from getting too other flowers, causing them to not grow near it and making it harder to pass on its genes.

    Essentially, if your genes make you, individually, 'better', but make you target, you failing to survive is just as much an act of evolution as it would be if it gave you survive. Getting cast out of your group because of your differences, or even eliminated by predators or your own species, is evolution at work. There is nothing 'unnatural' about humankind eliminating mutants, even if its with Sentinels or vaccines. Its still a form of evolution.
    I agree, the powers may be a advantage on a personal level but for an entire race? Do such different powers can really create a sense of identity? They have been persecuted by the humans but once they stopped being persecuted on their "paradise island", what have they in common?
    Sure, it can be nice to know others' thoughts (or not, not 'white lies'), no one can cheat on you, but it must be a nightmare on interpersonal relationships: who will trust you? Love you? Mind control? It certainly can be a turn off.
    Succeeding in our society means being integrated in the society and working well together, not showing off (except on stage…).

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Nope, It is just factual stuff. It is basically the same thing when someone say Latino will be majority in the US at some point in the future around 2045. And mutants are more inevitable in their universe than this scenario.It is just simple math
    Are the Latino saying that they are better than the non-Latino? Do they even separate themselves from the non-Latino? Do they prefer having Latino neighbours? Do they prevent from being what you are?
    There is no separation between Latino and non-Latino, just a matter of culture. But you can be gay and Latino, dark-skinned and Latino… It is a part of your identity, not the whole of the identity.
    "… something strong and soft and green,
    thrusting through the dead and petrified grayness."
    Alan Moore.

    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  3. #93
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    This seems to be a sticking point; that Charles' "we will replace you" bit in his speech to the human world is a sign of mutant supremacy. Thought we needed a seperate place to discuss this.
    Umm no. Charles meant homo superior would replace homo sapiens the same way the homo erectus were replaced.
    "Cable was right!"

  4. #94
    Fantastic Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    What's more concerning to me is the huge unfortunate implications that statement caused. HoXPoX was clearly using imagery and references to Jews and creation of Israel in Krakoa. At one point one person even directly references Jerusalem. But when you end your story with your stand-ins for Jews declaring 'we will replace you', that throws the metaphor into entirely different territory. They become the white supremacist version of Jews, essentially. Having them build their nation with a large dose of bribery, blackmail and mind control really plays into that 'Jews are secretly controlling the world with their nefarious power and money!' conspiracy theory.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    What's more concerning to me is the huge unfortunate implications that statement caused. HoXPoX was clearly using imagery and references to Jews and creation of Israel in Krakoa. At one point one person even directly references Jerusalem. But when you end your story with your stand-ins for Jews declaring 'we will replace you', that throws the metaphor into entirely different territory. They become the white supremacist version of Jews, essentially. Having them build their nation with a large dose of bribery, blackmail and mind control really plays into that 'Jews are secretly controlling the world with their nefarious power and money!' conspiracy theory.
    Those who think that don't need to read HoXPoX to be convinced. But you already had that with the Illuminati, a secret group that controls the world, also written by Hickman.
    "… something strong and soft and green,
    thrusting through the dead and petrified grayness."
    Alan Moore.

    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  6. #96
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    If mutants replacing humanity is inevitable, why is "make more mutants" such a pressing issue?
    Mutants replacing humans is inevitable unless humans commit genocide.

    The more mutants there are, the harder it is to commit genocide. Each new mutant brings new skills, powers and ways of thinking to their society, making them stronger. As in any other species, breeding is a survival mechanism.

  7. #97
    In the wobbly seat The Quiet Councilor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    What's more concerning to me is the huge unfortunate implications that statement caused. HoXPoX was clearly using imagery and references to Jews and creation of Israel in Krakoa. At one point one person even directly references Jerusalem. But when you end your story with your stand-ins for Jews declaring 'we will replace you', that throws the metaphor into entirely different territory. They become the white supremacist version of Jews, essentially. Having them build their nation with a large dose of bribery, blackmail and mind control really plays into that 'Jews are secretly controlling the world with their nefarious power and money!' conspiracy theory.
    No Muslims were harmed in the creation of Krakoa, and that alone blows the “mutant Israel” metaphor out of the water. There are parallels, sure, but it’s not a one-to-one comparison and clearly isn’t meant to be.

  8. #98
    Fantastic Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Quiet Councilor View Post
    No Muslims were harmed in the creation of Krakoa, and that alone blows the “mutant Israel” metaphor out of the water. There are parallels, sure, but it’s not a one-to-one comparison and clearly isn’t meant to be.
    Obviously its not a 1-1 comparison. It almost never is. But its clearly meant to evoke Israel. Its been a longstanding problem with X comics that they borrow phrasing and iconography of minorities, but those things fall apart when placed in a world of superheroes.

    There was even a very long thinkpiece that got passed around X twitter by professional review groups talking about the Krakoa/Israel comparisons. They also pointed out that Krakoa lacks a Palestine or Muslim analog, at least so far. But I don't think its wrong to point out that when you use imagery and phrasing taken from the Jewish people and the creation of Israel, and end with "WE WILL REPLACE YOU" the rallying cry of racists against Jews, it sends mixed messages.

  9. #99
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Quiet Councilor View Post
    No Muslims were harmed in the creation of Krakoa, and that alone blows the “mutant Israel” metaphor out of the water. There are parallels, sure, but it’s not a one-to-one comparison and clearly isn’t meant to be.
    Actual jewish person's Twitter thread.

    Let's start with the obvious: Jerusalem was chosen almost entirely to point out the similarities a nation like Israel to a Mutant nation. About how ideals can clash with the reality of world politics. Is it a condemning? Not really (at least not as much as it could be) it's more of a wake up call both in text and out of text: good intentions can only get you so far. And Magneto being the active member here makes it look intentional (also about the speech at the end and Magneto's own religion standing is probably a different discussion but overall it seems both in character and somewhat theatrical) but the meat of the story and what cements it in my mind as a very specific Jewish/Israeli allegory is Magneto saying "There has never been a Mutant war". Well there has never really been a Jewish war when we were a minority. But when we have gotten a nation things changed. Because for good or ill your responsibilities changes once you become a nation. And that's partly why this feels more like Krakoa is more a Utopia then actually real. Why the Mutants are falling to the same traps Humanity/Israel has fallen too in the past.

  10. #100
    Fantastic Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    That's the guy who wrote the article I mentioned

  11. #101
    Astonishing Member powerpax's Avatar
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    So do all Actual Jews have to feel that way, or do I get my own opinion? What is the point of a discussion if you want to ask a loaded question but only accept one answer?

  12. #102
    Fantastic Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Nobody said anything about only excepting one answer. Everyone's been giving their own opinions. If you agree or disagree with anyone, just say so. And obviously some Jewish people don't speak for all Jewish people.

  13. #103
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Mutants replacing humans is inevitable unless humans commit genocide.

    The more mutants there are, the harder it is to commit genocide. Each new mutant brings new skills, powers and ways of thinking to their society, making them stronger. As in any other species, breeding is a survival mechanism.
    Except that all Moira timelines ended with mutants losing. Immortal hulk ends with another species above humans and mutants
    Zethrimon unblock me

  14. #104
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Quiet Councilor View Post
    No Muslims were harmed in the creation of Krakoa, and that alone blows the “mutant Israel” metaphor out of the water. There are parallels, sure, but it’s not a one-to-one comparison and clearly isn’t meant to be.
    That's exactly why these stories will never really be a meaningful allegory for actual oppression though. Nation building in real life ALWAYS requires trampling over others, you can't just summon some sentient island out of nowhere to be your designated homeland with no negative repercussions for other people groups. This is why nationalism of any kind is generally frowned upon these days, no matter how much a group of people has suffered, an ideology based around an exclusionary identity and ethnic exceptionalism will always end in disaster.

  15. #105
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    To the same three or four posters making a dozen threads complaining about how Krakoa is mutant supremacy and everyone on the island is evil or brainwashed:

    What would you rather have instead? I don't like how we got here, but I'll take it over mutant extinction threat number 1007.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

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