Is "Mutants will replace humans" supremacist rhetoric?

[AbnormallyNormal]

That's exactly why these stories will never really be a meaningful allegory for actual oppression though. Nation building in real life ALWAYS requires trampling over others, you can't just summon some sentient island out of nowhere to be your designated homeland with no negative repercussions for other people groups. This is why nationalism of any kind is generally frowned upon these days, no matter how much a group of people has suffered, an ideology based around an exclusionary identity and ethnic exceptionalism will always end in disaster.

Not sure this is even true. For example, support for the Kurds having their own country is pretty high among a lot of folks who would call themselves on the left.

There have been many new countries in recent decades based literally around "nations" wanting "their own" state. It's not necessarily even an "ideology".

Again we got into questions of practicalities: are non-mutants allowed into Krakoa whatsoever? What circumstances? Does Krakoa want peace with the world or to control/dominate/invade it? Does Krakoa trade with the world? Offer it things? Why was Krakoa formed in the first place? Is there legitimate impetus for its formation? What is the alternative for mutantkind? Haven't we witnessed what mutants go through in the absence of a Krakoa over decades of comic stories?

I do think it's valid to point out how similar Krakoa feels to Genosha... it's actually really strange since Moira V literally was exactly that, an attempt to create a Genosha type situation and supposedly it failed badly. So how is this fundamentally distinct? So far it doesn't really seem like it except in mild tinkering-around-the-edges ways. But I guess we'll find out.

Hickman isnt saying that mutants will replace humanity. In fact Hickman is saying that mutants will NEVER replace humanity that a conflict against the humanity will lead to the extermination of mutantkind always.

Chales and Magneto are depicted as proud and stupid. Hickman story even stablish that mutants are by definition less intelligent that humans, even the most intelligent mutant is not near of Stark , Richards , etc.

Uh.... this is some WEIRD misreading here. Hickman NEVER said anything like "mutants are less intelligent than humans" or "mutants will never be as smart as Stark, Richards, etc." Not even sure why you would say that when it's just clearly not in the books at all.

Your first sentence though is much more debatable for sure. It's indeed possible the entire Krakoa status quo is basically a fable or allegory or something and will come crashing down and then Hickman will restore a glorious back-to-basics of mutants trying to assimilate into human-dominant civilization once more. I feel like that's disappointing, boring, and a waste though.

[Killerbee911]

Are the Latino saying that they are better than the non-Latino? Do they even separate themselves from the non-Latino? Do they prefer having Latino neighbours? Do they prevent from being what you are?
There is no separation between Latino and non-Latino, just a matter of culture. But you can be gay and Latino, dark-skinned and Latino… It is a part of your identity, not the whole of the identity.

Way to have point completely go over your head. All I mentioned was a simple growth rate Latino culture group will outnumber white culture group in the US , Just the same way mutation population growth will lead more mutants then eventually because mutants can from baseline humans as well they will be only mutants at some point because of the growth rate. This is factual because is what Orchis is panicking about in the books. When someone says mutants will replace humans without having to commit a single act of violence Mutants will replace humans


But since you want to talk about do Mutants say they are better than humans? Yes because they are Mutants are born with an extra thing that normal humans can't do. In real life when a product identical to each other has a useful feature the other one doesn't have you call that product the superior or better one. This is not Nazis or White Suprematist talking about a nonexistence advantage. Because of their genetics, Mutants are generally better than normal humans by virtue of being born a mutant. Reed Richards and Tony Stark are amazing and Prodigy by virtue of his powers can surpass them in intelligence. Forge can create anything they can create because of his powers. And before someone goes what about the mutants with crappy powers understand that second-gen and third-gen mutants improve on the originals. Mutant children tend to be more powerful than their parents or collective of their parent's abilities. So after a period of time in an all mutant society, the quality of they can do will be much better.

The part of the fiction we don't talk about when talking this discussion is that Mutants at this stage in their evolution are generally better than baseline humans and mutant group on a whole will improve over this state. The part of fiction that people are ignoring to make this a supremacist argument is that the mutants growth model will lead to them outnumbering then slowly replacing humans as the primary species. Mutants population growth will lead to them replacing humans unless some other form evolution Homo novissima , Homo sapien superior or something else pops up interrupts it. They are certain things in the x-men fiction that have a different perspective in real life. Nazi going we are a superior race because of our genetics(but genetics and potential are the same as every other race), is different from Mutants who are actually superior because of genetics. Real-life and fiction are not the same thing in this case. Nazis going we should be the only race around and having to kill everyone to accomplish that and Mutants going we will be only race around because X-gene is found baseline humans so the growth rate mutants and growth rate of humans with the X-gene is going to synch up is different things. Anyways you guys can feel differently that is your prerogative

[pkingdom]

Not sure this is even true. For example, support for the Kurds having their own country is pretty high among a lot of folks who would call themselves on the left.

There have been many new countries in recent decades based literally around "nations" wanting "their own" state. It's not necessarily even an "ideology".

Again we got into questions of practicalities: are non-mutants allowed into Krakoa whatsoever? What circumstances? Does Krakoa want peace with the world or to control/dominate/invade it? Does Krakoa trade with the world? Offer it things? Why was Krakoa formed in the first place? Is there legitimate impetus for its formation? What is the alternative for mutantkind? Haven't we witnessed what mutants go through in the absence of a Krakoa over decades of comic stories?

I do think it's valid to point out how similar Krakoa feels to Genosha... it's actually really strange since Moira V literally was exactly that, an attempt to create a Genosha type situation and supposedly it failed badly. So how is this fundamentally distinct? So far it doesn't really seem like it except in mild tinkering-around-the-edges ways. But I guess we'll find out.



Uh.... this is some WEIRD misreading here. Hickman NEVER said anything like "mutants are less intelligent than humans" or "mutants will never be as smart as Stark, Richards, etc." Not even sure why you would say that when it's just clearly not in the books at all.

Your first sentence though is much more debatable for sure. It's indeed possible the entire Krakoa status quo is basically a fable or allegory or something and will come crashing down and then Hickman will restore a glorious back-to-basics of mutants trying to assimilate into human-dominant civilization once more. I feel like that's disappointing, boring, and a waste though.

Yeah, I didn't really get the 'humans are smarter' thing either.

In the real world even when a large number of people support the creation of a new nation, it always has the problem of having to take territory away from a currently existing nation. This involves a whole host of problems and competing claims to land and heritage and is just a difficult mess. Krakoa doesn't have that problem, which helps the story but might hurt it with any kind of message it might try to convey. Maybe down the line we'll find out there are native people living/on in Krakoa/Arakko and they will claim the land is theirs over the mutants' claims. Or perhaps some nation in the world will claim that since Krakoa was originally in their waters, the land belongs to them and the mutants have no right to live there. Or maybe Krakoa itself will kick them out.

I do think Krakoa feels too similar to Genosha and Utopia, which both failed spectacularly. The main differences seem to be the drugs, the clones, and the villains joining up. If any, or all, of these backfire or fail, then that's the end of Krakoa.

[Killerbee911]

I do think Krakoa feels too similar to Genosha and Utopia, which both failed spectacularly. The main differences seem to be the drugs, the clones, and the villains joining up. If any, or all, of these backfire or fail, then that's the end of Krakoa.

The X-mansion has exploded a million yet people want the X-men to go back to that status quo. The failure of Krakoa isn't going to happen because it is a flawed concept, Krakoa is going to fail because X-men is a book that needs to change to keep as a fresh concept. Every status quo for X-men has failure involved.

[powerpax]

Krakoa is different for me because of the clear care and dedication taken and given to worldbuilding, infrastructure, etc. You can immerse yourself in dozens of new elements or heretofore unrevealed details in the maps, protocols, etc. alone.

No status quo in comics lasts forever. But I'd be very happy if it got a respectable 5 years, and given the timeline of the MCU I will not be surprised if Krakoa is the status quo for the mutants there, perhaps suggesting they've been there, in secret, since the Pym/Carter/Howard Stark Silver Age of the movies. It can run a long time on the endless bounty of stories and new quirks, details and so forth. That beats yet another boring rehash of the school.

[pkingdom]

The X-mansion has exploded a million yet people want the X-men to go back to that status quo. The failure of Krakoa isn't going to happen because it is a flawed concept, Krakoa is going to fail because X-men is a book that needs to change to keep as a fresh concept. Every status quo for X-men has failure involved.

Krakoa is different for me because of the clear care and dedication taken and given to worldbuilding, infrastructure, etc. You can immerse yourself in dozens of new elements or heretofore unrevealed details in the maps, protocols, etc. alone.

No status quo in comics lasts forever. But I'd be very happy if it got a respectable 5 years, and given the timeline of the MCU I will not be surprised if Krakoa is the status quo for the mutants there, perhaps suggesting they've been there, in secret, since the Pym/Carter/Howard Stark Silver Age of the movies. It can run a long time on the endless bounty of stories and new quirks, details and so forth. That beats yet another boring rehash of the school.

Fair points. It will end whenever Marvel reboots the status quo. I'm of the opposite mind powerpax. I think Krakoa will end right around the time the X-men arrive in the MCU, because having Krakoa be the jumping off point for movies would be too confusing for audiences. Plus they would be functionally identical to the Inhumans in the MCU, assuming they want to do anything more with that failed launch point.

Who knows, maybe they've thought this so far ahead that Krakoa is designed to trigger a larger reboot in the future around the time the movies start up. Somehow bring mutant and human relations back to zero.

[Londo Bellian]

Somehow bring mutant and human relations back to zero.

That there is the "Impossible Dream." I know Marvel is NOT the Distinguished Competition which has made crisis reboots into an art form. But maybe, just maybe, such a drastic measure is just what's needed. One-Above-All/Marvel creatives, look at what you make me do. Yes, it's my own fault that I let myself be affected so much by your FICTIONAL STORIES that I can't even comfortably read X-Men fanfics anymore because each character I might encounter in that corner is now colored by how I see them talk and act in the Age of Krakoa. I can't make good progress in that 70-chapter FFN story about Emma in a relationship with a female mutant OC. Mea culpa, but you're just as much effective at TV Tropes in "ruining" my life right now.

[powerpax]

I think Krakoa will end right around the time the X-men arrive in the MCU, because having Krakoa be the jumping off point for movies would be too confusing for audiences.

How? This would be a movie audience's introduction. The school can be used as past flashback stuff - 'we lived among humans long ago, but...' etc.

Plus they would be functionally identical to the Inhumans in the MCU, assuming they want to do anything more with that failed launch point.

They don't and nobody but hardcore MCU stans remember, plus no one liked them.

[Silver Phoenix]

The X-mansion has exploded a million yet people want the X-men to go back to that status quo. The failure of Krakoa isn't going to happen because it is a flawed concept, Krakoa is going to fail because X-men is a book that needs to change to keep as a fresh concept. Every status quo for X-men has failure involved.

That perspective is very interesting and more than likely true.

[Agent Z]

You mean the Phoenix doing its job and burning away a world that Terrax had stopped the progression of life on?

First off, the Phoenix destroyed multiple inhabited worlds on its way to Earth, not just one.
That's billions gone because of it before the beginning of the story.
Second of all, what about the simple right to LIVE for those billions, regardless of what external entities think of a world's evolution/supposed stagnation?
There's no justification to the genocides the Phoenix committed on its way to Earth.

Seriously, replace "Phoenix" with "Red Skull" or "Apocalypse" and no one would be making this argument.

[Beaddle]

This echos back to where Amercia is. the alt right is pushing propaganda that minorities and immigrants are here to overtake white people who are a majority. if you don't believe that, then you must not also believe mutants are here to overtake humans in the marvel universe.

[Glio]

Except that all Moira timelines ended with mutants losing. Immortal hulk ends with another species above humans and mutants

And History of the Marvel Universe ends with Franklin Richards, a mutant, as the last living being in the universe.

Immortal Hulk also mentions that he had to kill Franklin Richards to usurp his position in that future.

"Genocide robots kill all mutants" is not a natural process. It is an artificial way to avoid it. Nature vs Technology is another Hix-men theme.

[useridgoeshere]

The X-mansion has exploded a million yet people want the X-men to go back to that status quo. The failure of Krakoa isn't going to happen because it is a flawed concept, Krakoa is going to fail because X-men is a book that needs to change to keep as a fresh concept. Every status quo for X-men has failure involved.

Exactly. I said the same thing when people were arguing against Jean’s plan in Red.

Seriously, replace "Phoenix" with "Red Skull" or "Apocalypse" and no one would be making this argument.

What a strange comparison. It’s like comparing tornadoes or hurricanes for the damage and deaths they cause to mass murderers. Yeah, it sucks if winds destroy your house but they’re great if you’re trying to get across the Atlantic in a sailboat. Scott knew the Phoenix, based on having a decade of experience with it, was going to help propel Mutants forward while the Avengers with a half-assed briefing thought it was going to blow down their house. And after the story, Mutants are across the sea and Avengers’ house is still standing.

[Londo Bellian]

This echos back to where Amercia is. the alt right is pushing propaganda that minorities and immigrants are here to overtake white people who are a majority. if you don't believe that, then you must not also believe mutants are here to overtake humans in the marvel universe.

The "world outside your window" concept that Marvel has trumpeted for so long. Note that one reason it doesn't resonate as strongly with me is because I'm not American but Filipino, where our lives in our country and aspirations for tomorrow are different enough to be noticeable. There might be some sense in the equivalency you posit regarding "Alt-right Propaganda about minorities overwriting White America shouldn't be listened to = Orchis fear-mongering that the mutants of Krakoa will extinction-event Marvel humanity when a population critical point is reached should not be bought into." I remain cautious, since even if Marvel tries to be the world outside the window, as other posters might point out, it's STILL a work of fiction, and in fiction ANYTHING can happen like the Steve-Tony death-match totally ignoring the Earths colliding during Hix's "Time Runs Out."

But, on a more personal note.....
spoilers:

I understand that I may have established myself as arguably the most hated out of the hostile posters in the X-forums nowadays ("hostile" in the sense of being staunchly opposed to the prevailing sentiment supported by the posting majority right now: that Krakoa is cool and that this setting - and the new attitudes and in-universe political views of the associated characters - should now be the new default setting for X-Men in the comics and all future adaptations of it, now and forever more). I'm usually far more mellow when discussing on the other CBR sub-forums, but that's beside the point; you know I hate the Age of Krakoa, and you know that it has led me to attack those who support it. After going through HoxPox, seeing the beginnings of Dox, and reading the solicits for months from now in that regard, I'm certain that I can never resonate with the direction the X-creatives and X-editorial has charted out for X-Men and mutantkind. Unfortunately, when I read the overly gushing show of support on the forums, and the ensuing ragging of any posters who shared my contrary view on HoxPoxDox, I discovered a new berserk button in my inner self, and it had been mashed to be stuck in the "ON" position. So I began to vent, and vent, and bite verbally at every avenue of discussion that praised the "jerkass" X-Men that never sat well with me. Rarely did I even have good reasoning to push with my posts; the Krakoan state of mind has messed with my emotions, so I railed and shouted and engaged in hyperbole because I believe myself incapable of ever accepting this as the new baseline for the concept of X-Men. And even when I page away from CBR, the images of HoxPoxDox and the sneering dialogue of "new gods, flatscans, submit, we will replace you" remains going round and round on repeat in my head. It became hard to think of anything else and, I will admit, this preoccupation with the new X-status quo has indeed affected my WORK PERFORMANCE. But what can I do? The X-Men as they are now have gripped my brain in a vise. Like I said elsewhere, when I read X-Men fanfic I have trouble enjoying myself now because any passage mentioning this character or that then gets tainted by their characterization as Krakoans. Think EVO Kitty in a fic suddenly replaced in the narrative by "shadowed-face eager-to-maim-flatscans" Kate. Ugh. Maybe it's because I was never primarily exposed to X-Men in comics. I first learned of them from collectible trading cards. By the time my dad bought me my first hardcopy issue, the TAS was already on TV. Then came EVO, and WATX, even Marvel Anime and Disk Wars: Avengers or the Marvel Avengers Alliance browser game. So my primary view of X-Men are all these condensed versions and not the comic-book ones that have been carrying more history, continuity and RETCONS than those cartoons will ever have. Only more recently, as a rat-racer with an income, that I could try comics as is. And frankly, I feel I came in seriously only when the X-Men were on the verge of snapping and turning heel, though supporters might argue that they have long transcended the "human" concept of story-hero-villain. Look, my mind has been plagued by the HoxPoxDox, ironically even though I care little for the story developments because it's just not my type. But I find myself waking up a 2-3 AM (Phil time) just to open CBR again, go through the X-forums and start my venting anew in the threads. It does not contribute to the discussion more often than not, but my chest keeps getting weighed down by my animosity for Krakoa, haunted by images of X, Moira, Scott, Jean, Emma laughing at me before they meld into a boot and I look down and find myself to be an ant. KRAKOA is stuck in my head even though I hate it and it's driving me crazy!!! Then this Saturday (Phil time) I got to watch "Frozen II." Packed theater. 3D glasses. Suffice to say right now I have another pop culture phenomenon having its visuals, dialogue and music looping endlessly in my mindscape. Hopefully that will be enough to restore my thought processes to an even keel. With that perhaps I can word myself more reasonably in the X-forums. Maybe I'll even be able to just not post anything rather than react instantly when my berserk button flares up. How long will Elsa/Idina Menzel keep the Shadows of Krakoa at bay in my mind? I'd rather not say, save a prayer that it will be for as long as it can. So there. I have explained myself.

end of spoilers

[Zelena]

But since you want to talk about do Mutants say they are better than humans? Yes because they are Mutants are born with an extra thing that normal humans can't do. In real life when a product identical to each other has a useful feature the other one doesn't have you call that product the superior or better one. This is not Nazis or White Suprematist talking about a nonexistence advantage. Because of their genetics, Mutants are generally better than normal humans by virtue of being born a mutant. Reed Richards and Tony Stark are amazing and Prodigy by virtue of his powers can surpass them in intelligence. Forge can create anything they can create because of his powers. And before someone goes what about the mutants with crappy powers understand that second-gen and third-gen mutants improve on the originals. Mutant children tend to be more powerful than their parents or collective of their parent's abilities. So after a period of time in an all mutant society, the quality of they can do will be much better.

What does it mean for a individual in a society to be "better"? Someone can better than me in a discipline — well, a lot of people certainly are — , why would I feel inferior to them as long as I have the feeling of my own value. In a society, people have value regardless of their features or what they can bring to the society, it's the reason why we take care of disabled or weak people.
Would a society be better if the individuals are 'better'? Bees aren't stupid, they can recognize numbers (from 0 to 4), can manipulate small abstractions. Still it's a fact that, separately, they are stupider than us but their society is so solid that they have existed for millions of years (they just have problems now because of us). I don't think that, with all our intelligence and our 'superiority', we will last that long…

The part of the fiction we don't talk about when talking this discussion is that Mutants at this stage in their evolution are generally better than baseline humans and mutant group on a whole will improve over this state. The part of fiction that people are ignoring to make this a supremacist argument is that the mutants growth model will lead to them outnumbering then slowly replacing humans as the primary species. Mutants population growth will lead to them replacing humans unless some other form evolution Homo novissima , Homo sapien superior or something else pops up interrupts it. They are certain things in the x-men fiction that have a different perspective in real life. Nazi going we are a superior race because of our genetics(but genetics and potential are the same as every other race), is different from Mutants who are actually superior because of genetics. Real-life and fiction are not the same thing in this case. Nazis going we should be the only race around and having to kill everyone to accomplish that and Mutants going we will be only race around because X-gene is found baseline humans so the growth rate mutants and growth rate of humans with the X-gene is going to synch up is different things. Anyways you guys can feel differently that is your prerogative

It doesn't matter if the advantage is inexistent or not. It's about the kind of society you want, what are your values… I wouldn't want to live in a society where some people are considered 'inferior' and other 'superior' by this society. "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights." Well, I believe in that. You can add the mutants in the mix or consider that it's implied. It's the role of politics to make it work, that people so different are able to live together.