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  1. #16
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadow6743 View Post
    Fans also hate reboots but, if you don't reboot what I am describing will have to occur eventually. You can't have both. You can't hate reboots but want Bruce Wayne to be Batman forever. You can't have these characters have history without the advancement of time within their stories its simply not possible.
    The problem is Bruce Wayne is just as iconic as Batman, which isn't the case for the vast majority of superheroes. Therefore, my winning the lottery is greater than a new Batman patrolling Gotham any time soon.
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

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  2. #17
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Having kids is an excellent way to retire a character. It's possibly the only thing that could convinced these dedicated heroes to NOT run off and risk life and limb. "A greater responsibility" and what not.

    But that's got to be the end of it. You can not age the kids up. You can not make them the new sidekicks. You can't make them the new versions of the character... because that ages the heroes and screws up the entire shared universe. And it's always done poorly. Having Wally have kids and retire/hand the book over to Barry or Bart is a solid legitimate in-character decision. Aging up the kids so Dad can teach them to destroy physics... is stupid.

    If that's what they're going to do... as they always do... then I'm firmly in the 'No kids' camp. Keep the universe running smoothly and stop trying to shake things up.

  3. #18
    Boisterously Confused
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    The problem is, in a shared universe, you end up with characters that can be made poignant with a sentimental send off into the sunset, and characters of the same age/cohort that have to stay in the game because they sell comics and t-shirts. It strains the internal logic of the shared world unless you explicitly explain why some stay and some go in a reasonable manner.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadow6743 View Post
    Fans also hate reboots but, if you don't reboot what I am describing will have to occur eventually. You can't have both. You can't hate reboots but want Bruce Wayne to be Batman forever. You can't have these characters have history without the advancement of time within their stories its simply not possible.
    Personally, more and more I think the Japanese (or the indies) have it right. Have a series created by a dedicated writer/artist with the possibility of an ending. OR . . . create a metaseries. Like Kamen Rider or Super Sentai or Pretty Cure. Keep basic elements but change the character and certain motifs and let each version run through their series. There have been, like, 40 Kamen Riders and the series keeps going.

    I think I've gone off topic, though.

  5. #20
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think Superheroes can still be active with kids, but that most writers think having kids is an impediment that means they have to retire (and most fans would rather not see their favorites retire unless they're Jack Knight).
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamFTF View Post
    Personally, more and more I think the Japanese (or the indies) have it right. Have a series created by a dedicated writer/artist with the possibility of an ending. OR . . . create a metaseries. Like Kamen Rider or Super Sentai or Pretty Cure. Keep basic elements but change the character and certain motifs and let each version run through their series. There have been, like, 40 Kamen Riders and the series keeps going.
    The thing with American Superhero comics though is that the multiple creative teams and eras have helped define and enrich the mythology of the characters, to where it's probably as much a reason for why they've endured this long and consistently as their inherent popularity.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    The problem is, in a shared universe, you end up with characters that can be made poignant with a sentimental send off into the sunset, and characters of the same age/cohort that have to stay in the game because they sell comics and t-shirts. It strains the internal logic of the shared world unless you explicitly explain why some stay and some go in a reasonable manner.
    Which I think the 'retired to take care of kids' does. They haven't gotten too old, they haven't been broken or killed... and honestly if you still need them for a big crossover or in an emergency, they're still there. But they have other responsibilities too and aren't going to be hanging out on rooftops and getting by on 2 hours a night sleep anymore.


    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Other than that, the whole "retired because kids" doesn't make sense for superheroes: these people have powers and use to protect the world and, when they really have a reason to protect it and make it a better place, they'd suddenly go "no can do, need to play house now?". Just doesn't add up.

    Also, there are countless examples of heroes having kids and not retiring: Superman, Batman, Black Lightning, Kate Spencer Manhunter and the list goes on.
    How does it 'not make sense'? Superheroing is DANGEROUS. And Super heroes don't mind the danger themselves... but once there is a wife and kid at home? Kids who didn't get the choice as to whether to be in that kind of relationship?? It makes sense to me to get out of the spotlight and not drag supervillains to your loved ones.

    Just look at Daredevil. He's had at least THREE girlfriends whose lives were either ruined completely or outright murdered by people trying to hurt him. And that was before his identity was publicly revealed. Taking a step back is down right logical.

    Naturally not EVERY Hero would do this, but many could and would. It all boils down to your level of obsession and motivation and where your priorities end up. These are high risk jobs they do for free with no particular health or life insurance... It's about the same level of sense for someone in the military or police bomb squad promoting out to a safer desk job and getting out of the field. And that happens all the time.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    The thing with American Superhero comics though is that the multiple creative teams and eras have helped define and enrich the mythology of the characters, to where it's probably as much a reason for why they've endured this long and consistently as their inherent popularity.
    They can enrich things and they can also screw things up. But hey, maybe it's just me. It just doesn't feel like as much of a plus for me lately.

  8. #23
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I think it ages the characters too much, but then, I just straight up don't like when heroes retire. I prefer them to start doing something else like Hal Jordan, or to die on the job like Ted Kord or Barry Allen.

    I don't much like Jon and Damian, for example, and giving their Dads too much baggage, and tangentially, making it more likely that Kal or Bruce will retire, are both reasons why.

    And that's just for the Big Names. Give someone like Roy Harper a kid, and it ages them up less, but it still ages them up a little bit, that's for sure. Do it with enough characters, or with enough other aging factors like art or certain kinds of writing, and you suddenly realize you think of Dick Grayson as thirty and Bruce Wayne as nearly fifty, and then you've got a problem again. Or at least you do if you think that the main heroes shouldn't retire. Which I kind of do.
    Bruce doesn't need to actually be old enough to be Dick's father. If you assume he was in his 20s when he adopted Dick, it works out fine. He could only be in his early 40s now. Not 50.

    Grayson IS about 30 now, by the way. One of the Ric Nightwing issues said he lost almost two decades of memories, and the last thing he remembers is his parents dying, when he was 13.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Bruce doesn't need to actually be old enough to be Dick's father. If you assume he was in his 20s when he adopted Dick, it works out fine. He could only be in his early 40s now. Not 50.

    Grayson IS about 30 now, by the way. One of the Ric Nightwing issues said he lost almost two decades of memories, and the last thing he remembers is his parents dying, when he was 13.
    That's one of the bonuses to adoption. The 'aquire a teen sidekick' is a lot easier than aging up natural kids. LOTS of hoops to jump through since Dick was in college when Ra's and Talia were first introduced... Now we had a Superman flashbacks showing that he was married and the kid was here before he fought Doomsday... and there's just too much to cram in and keep continuity intact. Everything reads different then and frankly not much is for the better.

  10. #25
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Yeah, they screwed up in Teen Titans Rebirth. If Damian is 13 years old and Dick is 30, Dick was 17 when he was born. But Damian suddenly had a three year age up when Rebirth hit. If he was 10 now, then Dick would be 20 when he was born, which would match him being in college when Bruce and Talia first met.

  11. #26
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamFTF View Post
    They can enrich things and they can also screw things up. But hey, maybe it's just me. It just doesn't feel like as much of a plus for me lately.
    I don't think we would've had as many seminal or memorable storylines and characters without the successive creative teams that have taken ownership of the titles over the years.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think we would've had as many seminal or memorable storylines and characters without the successive creative teams that have taken ownership of the titles over the years.
    Exaclty. I can't even imagine a Batman that ended with Bob Kane or a Superman that ended with Siegel and Schuster. Imagine a Thor that ended with Stan Lee?? No walt Simonson on Thor? No Curt Swan on Superman??! Madness this way lies!!

    We've HAD generational characters like that. We have the Phantom... we have Zorro... We have Shadow... and they're all pretty much dead properties. The new blood over the years have kept the DC and Marvel characters. Nobody every cares about the replacements and we always have to see the same story as they try to restart 'XXXX is getting old and hands his gear to YYYY' and then immediately backtrack because nobody really likes YYYY. Don Diego has had sons, grandsons, strangers he's met in the bar... and yet we keep going back to Don Diego... because He IS Zorro.

    Same principle happens here. I can't think of any of these stories I would have been happy with if they had just ended in the early 70' or 80's with the original writer. I certainly would never have gotten to see Bruce Wayne... and my nephews love him. So I really don't ever support retiring characters because "I" want to see advancement... it's bigger than Me.

  13. #28
    Mighty Member Waterfall's Avatar
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    I hate kids in comics period. They donít know how to introduce them, use them and they are nothing but burden for their parents. See Wally for the prime example.

    Reboot every time the hero gets a kid, end of story.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    The one character where I thought "okay, he's gonna take care of his kid now" is Jack Knight; but although firmly established within DC continuity, Starman was almost a vertigo series. It felt ok that it ended.

    Other than that, the whole "retired because kids" doesn't make sense for superheroes: these people have powers and use to protect the world and, when they really have a reason to protect it and make it a better place, they'd suddenly go "no can do, need to play house now?". Just doesn't add up.

    Also, there are countless examples of heroes having kids and not retiring: Superman, Batman, Black Lightning, Kate Spencer Manhunter and the list goes on.

    Add to that, the one example where they tried to retire a hero and use the kids as an excuse, which was Wally, did indeed piss of fans. (It was only the second or third motive to get pissed off in a loooooooooooooooooooooooooong list that was to come, but fans got pissed at that excuse. And how!)
    Considering how many superheroes exist and are likely to pop up in the future, it isn't like the retiring ones are dooming the world by hanging up their costumes.

  15. #30
    Mighty Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    There is no easy way
    Reading list: Miles Morales: Spider-Man (Marvel), Ironheart (Marvel), Champions (Marvel), Jessica Jones: Purple Daughter (Marvel), Runaways (Marvel), Young Justice (DC), Naomi (DC), Justice League Odyssey (DC), My Hero Academia (VIZ), Bitter Root (Image), Quincredible (Lionforge), Buffy the Vampire Slayer Reboot (BOOM!)

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