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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    There are some fun pieces of Messner-Loeb's run. The first space adventure was a fun romp, though the plotting felt seriously made up as he went along. The Taco Whiz situation was nonsensical, but he somehow made Diana's relation to it work. It'd have been great as an AU.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I find the original Paula story to be incredibly naive and borderline offensive and harmful by modern standards and it says something that she had to be retconned into being blackmailed by the nazis in order to be seen as a believable ally.
    Of course it doesn't hold up in its execution by modern standards. it was written in the 1940s with much more simplistic writing styles and aimed at a (supposedly) less sophisticated audience.

    I agree that I don't like the retcon with Gerta, as it's way too easy. But I think the basic idea is enduring. Paula and her redemption are strong enduring hallmarks of the WW franchise, if not the exact details, which can and should be tweaked. As do a lot of long lasting ideas in many different comic book franchises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    With people becoming more aware of how dangerous nazism is and that these guys are not going to have a "come to Jesus" moment just because you say some pretty words makes doing anything like Paula's original story unpalatable.
    Which means the story is viable for an update. Paula is sadly just as relevant now as she ever was, and with more sophisticated writing styles, there is the opportunity to explore Paula's psyche as we see how she was indoctrinated by such a vile idealogoy, and the steps she takes towards walking down a new path, what it means to her previous victims and how they react to her, how she makes amends, does she run the risk of relapsing back into her old life, etc. It shouldn't be presented as being a simple redemption, but the idea that a soul can be saved and become a force for good is a timeless one that gets re-used in all sorts of fiction (Xena, Angel, etc.). Diana didn't have as many notable reformed enemies-turned-allies outside of Paula pre-COIE, but we can't say she had many post-COIE either. Valerie vanished from the book, and the Bana as a group found common ground with the main Amazons, but that was it. The WW franchise notices Paula's absense, much the same way it misses classic everywoman Etta Candy. Which is why we keep getting Zolas and Maggies foisted upon us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Vanessa and Rebirth Barbara may have been Diana's friends but they also send a good message about not giving up on your friends (well Vanessa does, Barbara at this point is crossing too many lines for Diana to realistically keep treating her with kid gloves).
    That's a good message to have, but it doesn't have to be one or the other. It really shouldn't be either, otherwise it just looks like Diana only cares about redemption if she's already personally invested in who the person was beforehand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I've said this before but I feel it bears repeating. The way the some of the WW fandom and writers approach the idea of alternate methods of conflict resolution has some issues. While violence should not be used to solve every problem there are people whom cannot be stopped by any other means and using lethal force is completely fair. And this need to use alternative means as a one-size fits all solution has produced some genuinely ugly stories like Reformation Island in the Golden Age or Christopher Priest's The 18th Letter.
    To be fair, it's not as if Reformation Island has ever been given much of a consistent chance in the main canon to be used again, updated for the times with more progressive thinking. Jimenez brought it back just so Rucka could have Hera trash the new island, and then all the crap with Infinite Crisis happened.

    Diana, when written in character, is wise enough to kill only when necessary. But by establishing that she is willing to kill, writers have flanderized her at times to the point where she's a stab happy maniac. "The only reason I don't have as many villains as you or Bruce is because I deal with them permanently." So it's just as prone to ugly stories as the stuff you listed. And while Rucka executed the Max Lord storyline as well as anyone could have, we are unfortunately now stuck with that story's toxic legacy. To the point that Max Lord is showing up in the movie over any actual WW character, and may actually have a bigger role than the Cheetah, which makes me want to vomit.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    And while Rucka executed the Max Lord storyline as well as anyone could have, we are unfortunately now stuck with that story's toxic legacy. To the point that Max Lord is showing up in the movie over any actual WW character, and may actually have a bigger role than the Cheetah, which makes me want to vomit.
    I've just about decided to headcanon that it's really Doctor Psycho in WW 84, instead of Maxwell Lord.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Which means the story is viable for an update. Paula is sadly just as relevant now as she ever was, and with more sophisticated writing styles, there is the opportunity to explore Paula's psyche as we see how she was indoctrinated by such a vile idealogoy, and the steps she takes towards walking down a new path, what it means to her previous victims and how they react to her, how she makes amends, does she run the risk of relapsing back into her old life, etc. It shouldn't be presented as being a simple redemption, but the idea that a soul can be saved and become a force for good is a timeless one that gets re-used in all sorts of fiction (Xena, Angel, etc.).
    I think if you want to update Paula you’d be better off distancing her from Nazism. That ideology just comes with too much ugly baggage for real life people and the way it has been depicted in superhero comics rarely, if ever, reflects the actual horrors of it.


    That's a good message to have, but it doesn't have to be one or the other. It really shouldn't be either, otherwise it just looks like Diana only cares about redemption if she's already personally invested in who the person was beforehand.
    Well as I said, Barbara is getting to the point where Diana really has to stop treating her with kid gloves and accept that her friend is gone. Acknowledging that you cannot save everyone might be good for maturity.


    Diana, when written in character, is wise enough to kill only when necessary. But by establishing that she is willing to kill, writers have flanderized her at times to the point where she's a stab happy maniac. "The only reason I don't have as many villains as you or Bruce is because I deal with them permanently." So it's just as prone to ugly stories as the stuff you listed. And while Rucka executed the Max Lord storyline as well as anyone could have, we are unfortunately now stuck with that story's toxic legacy. To the point that Max Lord is showing up in the movie over any actual WW character, and may actually have a bigger role than the Cheetah, which makes me want to vomit.
    If it means anything I’d have preferred wither Circe or non-midget Dr Psycho.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Where do you guys place Gail Simone's first run?

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