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  1. #1
    Condescending Member manymade1's Avatar
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    Default What are considered the best runs?

    I'm curious, as someone that doesn't read too much Wonder Woman.

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    It depends. Marston is the start of Wonder Woman. Perez is seen as a modern golden point. Rucka first and rebirth run are good. Phil Jimenez

  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    For modern runs, I think Greg Rucka's are the best, especially the first pre-Flashpoint one. His Rebirth run is great too, but it is bogged down by continuity reboot stuff. The portions that take place during "Year One" are the strongest parts, though.

    If you enjoy old school comics like all the way back in the 40s, the original comics by Marston are fascinating. Dated as can be, but packed with a lot of interesting and controversial ideas that offer a peak into his mind. They are definitely the most "pure" Wonder Woman, for better or worse. George Perez's reboot in the 80s is also dated, but naturally much less so in comparison. I would also recommend the Phil Jimenez run, which is sort of a spiritual successor to Perez's and leads up to Rucka's.

    The New 52 run by Brian Azzarello is too big not to suggest, just know it is VERY controversial. I hate plenty of things in it myself, but I think anyone getting into Wonder Woman should read it and form their own opinion to see what all the fuss is about. I just usually recommend the other runs first/in addition.

  4. #4
    Incredible Member Joao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manymade1 View Post
    I'm curious, as someone that doesn't read too much Wonder Woman.
    Her canon is basicaly Marston, Pérez, Jimenez, Rucka, Simone, Azzarello and Rucka again. I don't think Wilson will make the cut in the long run.

    (I hate Azzarello but well. His changes regarding Diana's parentage are the official version in every adaptation so we gotta give him that).

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Runs that are well regarded and are popular here:
    Rucka’s runs, both Post Crisis and Rebirth
    Perez’s Post Crisis reboot run
    Jimenez’s Run
    Simone

    Azzarelo’s was a big critical success but it’s hated on this forum for the changes he made (Zeus is Diana’s dad, Amazons replenish their numbers by raping and killing sailors, etc). I enjoyed it myself even if it’s not how I think the “mainstream” Diana should be.

  6. #6
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Runs that are well regarded and are popular here:
    Rucka’s runs, both Post Crisis and Rebirth
    Perez’s Post Crisis reboot run
    Jimenez’s Run
    Simone

    Azzarelo’s was a big critical success but it’s hated on this forum for the changes he made (Zeus is Diana’s dad, Amazons replenish their numbers by raping and killing sailors, etc). I enjoyed it myself even if it’s not how I think the “mainstream” Diana should be.
    There are people on the forum who loved Azzarello's run and people who weren't so fond of it. Saying that 'it's hated on this forum' is incorrect.
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  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    There are people on the forum who loved Azzarello's run and people who weren't so fond of it. Saying that 'it's hated on this forum' is incorrect.
    True, but I feel like they’re in the minority. Which is fine I don’t mind being in the minority with regards to feelings towards it.

  8. #8
    Condescending Member manymade1's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone!

    Yeah I often hear that Azzarello's run is pretty divisive among fans but loved by critics.

  9. #9
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manymade1 View Post
    Thanks everyone!

    Yeah I often hear that Azzarello's run is pretty divisive among fans but loved by critics.

    The thing is many of those critics didn't understand Wonder Woman or couldn't see how much he damaged her mythology.

  10. #10
    Condescending Member manymade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    The thing is many of those critics didn't understand Wonder Woman or couldn't see how much he damaged her mythology.
    Understandable.

    A lot of the most critically acclaimed runs are pretty hated by fans. I think it's a case of a writer being too forward thinking with their plots, to the point where they forget everything that came before. Grant Morrison's X-Men and Jason Aaron's Thor are loved by critics but hated by fans for that exact reason.

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Fans don't always know what's best for a property. They hold onto their preferred takes very tightly and don't accept deviation, even when it can result in stagnation. And even if the shake up has precedent in previous versions.

    i'm not excluding myself from this. I'm very critical of certain aspects of the Azzarello run, I think some of the ideas in it fundamentally go against the character and her world. In other respects, Diana herself is mostly written well and there are some cool ideas in the mix. Fan backlash doesn't always mean something is objectively bad. I think any run that got good critical reviews and people paying attention to the title where they didn't before should be checked out. Literally every LCS and Newbury Comics I went into had the people working there and some of the customers praising the Azzarello run. They did the same for the Rucka rebirth run too.

    I think Wonder Woman needs more shake ups to get people talking. I definitely don't think the New 52 had a lot of good shake ups, but that's clearly not the case for some. I'd also recommend Morrison's Earth One GNs. It's ok to sample different stuff from different eras even if not everything agrees with you (or everybody else).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Azzarelo’s was a big critical success but it’s hated on this forum for the changes he made (Zeus is Diana’s dad, Amazons replenish their numbers by raping and killing sailors, etc). I enjoyed it myself even if it’s not how I think the “mainstream” Diana should be.
    I can enjoy it now that it is essentially an Elseworlds. For a mainstream version it's a no go, especially with the stuff about the Amazons, but it would have worked as a Black Label book or something.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Fans don't always know what's best for a property. They hold onto their preferred takes very tightly and don't accept deviation, even when it can result in stagnation. And even if the shake up has precedent in previous versions.

    i'm not excluding myself from this. I'm very critical of certain aspects of the Azzarello run, I think some of the ideas in it fundamentally go against the character and her world. In other respects, Diana herself is mostly written well and there are some cool ideas in the mix. Fan backlash doesn't always mean something is objectively bad. I think any run that got good critical reviews and people paying attention to the title where they didn't before should be checked out.
    Yes. One also has to be aware that critique against something can be on different levels. Depending on the reader, they might emphasise themes, or characterisation, or familiariaty, or plotting, or artwork. But having trouble with any one of these can very well taint or influence the other aspects, and articulating all of this clearly is very tricky. It's very easy for people to talk past each other, because they think their words apply to X while the other part thinks it applies to Y. Or one might read more from the artwork than from the words and plot, or vice versa.

    Azzarello's run was very strong with regards to artwork and the action-y aspects of plotting. Characterisation of Diana was somewhat non-standard, but not too far out of the ordinary, and generally worked. Anyone who emphasises those elements in reading can have a good time with the run. Likewise anyone who likes bold new takes for the sake of bold new takes.

    Where Azzarello's run breaks down is partly in familiarity, because nearly all of Diana's usual supporting cast is removed. He also ends up with a plot that is too dependant on convoluted plans, but that can easily be forgiven if the way there is entertaining enough. But where Azzarello's run really runs into trouble is with themes—and thus values.

    Now, I can read and enjoy stuff where I dislike the values (I do have a soft for crappy military sf). But Azzarello took a bulldozer through the feminist and humanist core of Wonder Woman, and that colours everything for me.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Fans don't always know what's best for a property. They hold onto their preferred takes very tightly and don't accept deviation, even when it can result in stagnation. And even if the shake up has precedent in previous versions.

    i'm not excluding myself from this. I'm very critical of certain aspects of the Azzarello run, I think some of the ideas in it fundamentally go against the character and her world. In other respects, Diana herself is mostly written well and there are some cool ideas in the mix. Fan backlash doesn't always mean something is objectively bad. I think any run that got good critical reviews and people paying attention to the title where they didn't before should be checked out. Literally every LCS and Newbury Comics I went into had the people working there and some of the customers praising the Azzarello run. They did the same for the Rucka rebirth run too.

    I think Wonder Woman needs more shake ups to get people talking. I definitely don't think the New 52 had a lot of good shake ups, but that's clearly not the case for some. I'd also recommend Morrison's Earth One GNs. It's ok to sample different stuff from different eras even if not everything agrees with you (or everybody else).
    Ha we finally disagree on something! Had to happen eventually. I think the last thing Diana needs right now is another shake up, because there has been so little follow through on past shake ups. She had a twin brother who sucked and was abandoned. She was the God of War but that was retconned out. Her origin got retold with Odyssey but that was retconned out with the new origin which retold her origin AGAIN. She snapped Max Lord’s neck. Themyscaria opened up and let outsider women come there. And on and on, and ALL of these got retconned out pretty quick or destroyed or ignored. “Shake ups” only work when you’ve got a writer who is willing to really do the work to explore what the shake up means. What Diana needs now is some stability, build some foundation, ADD to WW’s world not take away or change. Then maybe you can mess with her lore and people will care because you’ve got them invested.

    I can enjoy it now that it is essentially an Elseworlds. For a mainstream version it's a no go, especially with the stuff about the Amazons, but it would have worked as a Black Label book or something.
    That’s basically how I see it too, as a really solid self contained Elseworld that unlike most WW standalone books, it doesn’t focus on her origin that much. It’s the most interesting WW vs. the gods story that I’ve read at any rate, just not what I think her mainline book should be about.

  14. #14
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    The thing with Azz's run is it didn't feel like a Wonder Woman run. It felt her being a supporting cast. Now what kind of shakeup? I often wonder what would happen if the Amazons actually stayed. A what if story would do.

  15. #15
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    I'm curious to see what you guys think of WML's run?

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