What are considered the best runs?

[SeanT]

The thing is many of those critics didn't understand Wonder Woman or couldn't see how much he damaged her mythology.

Put me down as a long-time reader who loved the Azzarello run.

How did he damage her mythology? The Amazon raids has largely been forgotten, the Zeus as Daddy thing seems as though it was an edict from above. If he didn't write that story, someone else would have.

He did understand her mythology by returning love as her greatest strength, and turning enemies into allies, a Marston trope abandoned over the years, as well as making a story that honors the spirit of Wonder Woman that non-comic fans would be interested in reading.

[SiegePerilous02]

Put me down as a long-time reader who loved the Azzarello run.

How did he damage her mythology? The Amazon raids has largely been forgotten, the Zeus as Daddy thing seems as though it was an edict from above. If he didn't write that story, someone else would have.

He did understand her mythology by returning love as her greatest strength, and turning enemies into allies, a Marston trope abandoned over the years, as well as making a story that honors the spirit of Wonder Woman that non-comic fans would be interested in reading.

The raids are the biggest part of it. it's pretty much forgotten now, but that's down to other author's getting rid of it, so I it's still fair to criticize him for writing it.

Inserting so much of a male presence in the foundations of WW goes against her mythos. She now has a father, who isn't just anybody, but the most powerful patriarch in all Greek myth and her strength derives from him. She gets training from the Amazons, but what puts her over the edge of the others is the training from Ares. She gets weapons from Hephaestus. Her primary ally among the Gods is Hermes...which wouldn't be a problem if her previous female allies in the pantheon weren't reduced. Hera is great because she actually has an arc, and Demeter generally never plays a huge role anyway. But Athena is largely absent, Aphrodite just stands around and doesn't do anything and Artemis starts out as an antagonist and her brother's thug. She comes over to Diana's team but just as muscle, no mention of the fact that Diana is classically named for her.

The stuff with love and making allies out of enemies is great. Diana herself is largely enjoyable in spite of all the stuff mentioned above. But it shouldn't have to come at the expense of the Amazons and the goddesses.

[LifeIsILL]

Pre-Crisis Gerry Conway was ok, not good or anything but it's a fun read.

I would recommend all post-crisis runs except for Byrnes and Finch runs.

[Agent Z]

The raids are the biggest part of it. it's pretty much forgotten now, but that's down to other author's getting rid of it, so I it's still fair to criticize him for writing it.

Inserting so much of a male presence in the foundations of WW goes against her mythos. She now has a father, who isn't just anybody, but the most powerful patriarch in all Greek myth and her strength derives from him. She gets training from the Amazons, but what puts her over the edge of the others is the training from Ares. She gets weapons from Hephaestus. Her primary ally among the Gods is Hermes...which wouldn't be a problem if her previous female allies in the pantheon weren't reduced. Hera is great because she actually has an arc, and Demeter generally never plays a huge role anyway. But Athena is largely absent, Aphrodite just stands around and doesn't do anything and Artemis starts out as an antagonist and her brother's thug. She comes over to Diana's team but just as muscle, no mention of the fact that Diana is classically named for her.

The stuff with love and making allies out of enemies is great. Diana herself is largely enjoyable in spite of all the stuff mentioned above. But it shouldn't have to come at the expense of the Amazons and the goddesses.

And those hadn't been abandoned either. The previous continuity had Diana do this with two of the Silver Swans, a rogue Green Lantern and the Bana Mighdall. Azzarello didn't bring back the idea of love and redemption, it was something that had never left the book.

Put me down as a long-time reader who loved the Azzarello run.

How did he damage her mythology? The Amazon raids has largely been forgotten, the Zeus as Daddy thing seems as though it was an edict from above. If he didn't write that story, someone else would have.

He did understand her mythology by returning love as her greatest strength, and turning enemies into allies, a Marston trope abandoned over the years, as well as making a story that honors the spirit of Wonder Woman that non-comic fans would be interested in reading.

Zeus being her father may be an edict now but there was no indication that was the case when Azzarello introduced it. By his own admission he was given free reign to do whatever he liked with the book.

[kjn]

To add to what SiegePerilous02, I wasn't that impressed with the way that Azzarello handled the Greek gods or the role they played in the story.

First, Azzarello was much more interested in the male gods than the female ones. Poor Hera got a character arc, but was shafted in it. The god who got the most rework was Ares, and he was turned into Diana's primary mentor. What we got wasn't a modern feminist reimagining of Greek mythology, but a well-worked edgelord reimagining. Diana wasn't a hero because of the Amazons, but because of Ares.

Now, the idea of Zola/Athena giving birth to Zeus successor was a stroke of genius, marvellously fitting into the themes of Greek mythology, but then Azzarello ruined it all by bringing it all back to the status quo ante with Zeus on top again.

But I also think that Azzarello missed that good mythical stories have Diana interacting with the gods in various ways, but she is fundamentally working on behalf of humanity, not the gods. It shows in Marston and it shows in the best of the mythical stories (like the fight against Medusa in Rucka's first run). That humanistic and liminal quality was lost with Azzarello's run (to be fair to Azzarello, he's not alone in falling into that hole; Rucka did it with the conclusion to the Medusa arc as well). That was a huge part of why Diana felt like a bystander in her own book there.

[SiegePerilous02]

To add to what SiegePerilous02, I wasn't that impressed with the way that Azzarello handled the Greek gods or the role they played in the story.

First, Azzarello was much more interested in the male gods than the female ones. Poor Hera got a character arc, but was shafted in it. The god who got the most rework was Ares, and he was turned into Diana's primary mentor. What we got wasn't a modern feminist reimagining of Greek mythology, but a well-worked edgelord reimagining. Diana wasn't a hero because of the Amazons, but because of Ares.

Now, the idea of Zola/Athena giving birth to Zeus successor was a stroke of genius, marvellously fitting into the themes of Greek mythology, but then Azzarello ruined it all by bringing it all back to the status quo ante with Zeus on top again.

But I also think that Azzarello missed that good mythical stories have Diana interacting with the gods in various ways, but she is fundamentally working on behalf of humanity, not the gods. It shows in Marston and it shows in the best of the mythical stories (like the fight against Medusa in Rucka's first run). That humanistic and liminal quality was lost with Azzarello's run (to be fair to Azzarello, he's not alone in falling into that hole; Rucka did it with the conclusion to the Medusa arc as well). That was a huge part of why Diana felt like a bystander in her own book there.

Agreed. I actually think Hera's arc works REALLY well up until the moment Zola and Zeke's true identities are revealed. it's a bit of a deconstruction of the classical "Evil Queen-Wife on the warpath" myths Hera is infamous for, because Zeus is still made out to be an ******* who pits all these women against each other. She's still culpable for her own behavior and deserves to be humbled, but the idea of her becoming friends with Zola in the process of building herself back up is great. As is Diana recruiting her as an ally. i think if the run had ended with Diana, Hera, Zola AND Hippolyta all being allies and standing against Zeus as he's cast down into the pit with the First Born while, say, Athena a non-Zeus Zeke takes the throne, we'd have a great run that still fits with the core themes of Wonder Woman even with the revelation that Zeus is her father.

But it undermines itself by giving Zeus exactly what he wanted and letting him off the hook via a get out of jail free card as Zeke. That and of course the Amazon raids and male Amazons. I feel the run overreached in terms of controversy with that stuff when it should have just stuck with the demigod origin as it's main controversial element. Because it's easier to come back from that and it's actually plot relevant. The stuff with the Amazons and their sons is pretty pointless and damaging.

[AmiMizuno]

I agree the best was Hera but the others I dislike. I would accept the sex raids if only there were a few Amazons doing it and the other Amazons wouldn’t do it.

[SeanT]

The raids are the biggest part of it. it's pretty much forgotten now, but that's down to other author's getting rid of it, so I it's still fair to criticize him for writing it.

Inserting so much of a male presence in the foundations of WW goes against her mythos. She now has a father, who isn't just anybody, but the most powerful patriarch in all Greek myth and her strength derives from him. She gets training from the Amazons, but what puts her over the edge of the others is the training from Ares. She gets weapons from Hephaestus. Her primary ally among the Gods is Hermes...which wouldn't be a problem if her previous female allies in the pantheon weren't reduced. Hera is great because she actually has an arc, and Demeter generally never plays a huge role anyway. But Athena is largely absent, Aphrodite just stands around and doesn't do anything and Artemis starts out as an antagonist and her brother's thug. She comes over to Diana's team but just as muscle, no mention of the fact that Diana is classically named for her.

The stuff with love and making allies out of enemies is great. Diana herself is largely enjoyable in spite of all the stuff mentioned above. But it shouldn't have to come at the expense of the Amazons and the goddesses.

I like the idea that the new Zeus is more benevolent. I don't recall the details but I remember he wanted something good for Diana. Toxic masculinity has been recast in our society as a social ill, so it makes sense that the ultimate man as well is more benevolent. It's an interesting take that Zeus' new origin has him being born of his daughter, instead of the other way around. So the ultimate man is influenced born of a woman and influenced by her, instead of Athena being influenced by her father.

War, as well, is no longer seen as a glorious pursuit, so it's an interesting take that the ultimate god of War too is diminished. And even though Ares trains her, it's less that he influences her- she refuses to become a mad killer- and ultimately influences Ares to be less bloodthirsty himself. Chalk up another foe becoming more positive.

Hermes and Hephaestus having such big roles is nothing new- that was introduced by Perez. Hermes was the only god who hung out with Diana on a regular basis. To this Azzarello added Hera and Athena as Zola, so that's more of a goddess presence. As for Aphrodite- I always feel it was a shame that Perez reduced her to a blond bimbo type who was pretty useless. Under Azzarello, you get that mythological bent that the gods and goddesses are all trying to influence the humans, but with Aphrodite there's no such need- Diana exudes love in everything she does, and that a great return to form after love was diminished in her post-Crisis origin.

As for Artemis, I'm glad she was returned to a more antagonistic presence. She's a goddess who shunned human society, so it never made any sense, under Perez, that she'd be the main goddess pushing for equality of the sexes. She once had a Actaeon ripped apart by his own hounds for catching a glimpse of her bathing, so being a benevolent force never made any sense.

With the raids- I don't know. Other writers have created murderous Amazons as well- willing to murder each other, which I find even more strange than killing men. Jimenez had Amazons killing each other because of basically a land claim, and Simone had 4 Amazons who wanted to kill Diana herself, but not one seems to care.

[SeanT]

And those hadn't been abandoned either. The previous continuity had Diana do this with two of the Silver Swans, a rogue Green Lantern and the Bana Mighdall. Azzarello didn't bring back the idea of love and redemption, it was something that had never left the book.

I would argue the Valerie Silver Swan was more influenced by her friend (name escapes me), and Nessie was a friend of Diana's already so she had a personal responsibility But all these are just one-offs that disappear from the book, whereas with Azz (and WML), you get that continuing relationship that really pushes the idea of redemption. (Although did she ever really redeem the Bana Mighdall?)

Under Azz and WML, it just keeps happening over and over.

[SiegePerilous02]

I like the idea that the new Zeus is more benevolent. I don't recall the details but I remember he wanted something good for Diana. Toxic masculinity has been recast in our society as a social ill, so it makes sense that the ultimate man as well is more benevolent. It's an interesting take that Zeus' new origin has him being born of his daughter, instead of the other way around. So the ultimate man is influenced born of a woman and influenced by her, instead of Athena being influenced by her father.

He's not that benevolent. His abuse of Hera and his first born son is what set the whole conflict into motion. And his history of cheating on his wife is still very much canon, as Hermes, Artemis, Apollo and Dionysus still exist.
He was raised by women in the actual myths and he still turned into an abusive adulterer and, in some interpretations, a rapist. Being born and shaped by Athena may play a difference, but this version of Zeus looms large in the story without being much of an engaging character. There isn't that much to go on to assume he's that much different than his mythological counterpart.

War, as well, is no longer seen as a glorious pursuit, so it's an interesting take that the ultimate god of War too is diminished. And even though Ares trains her, it's less that he influences her- she refuses to become a mad killer- and ultimately influences Ares to be less bloodthirsty himself. Chalk up another foe becoming more positive.

I think Ares is interesting enough on his own in this, as is his dynamic with Diana. Barring the origin story, he doesn't have much value as as a villain. But combined with the lack of focus on the Amazons and not as much focus on the goddesses, it comes off as more intrusive than it otherwise might be.

Hermes and Hephaestus having such big roles is nothing new- that was introduced by Perez. Hermes was the only god who hung out with Diana on a regular basis. To this Azzarello added Hera and Athena as Zola, so that's more of a goddess presence. As for Aphrodite- I always feel it was a shame that Perez reduced her to a blond bimbo type who was pretty useless. Under Azzarello, you get that mythological bent that the gods and goddesses are all trying to influence the humans, but with Aphrodite there's no such need- Diana exudes love in everything she does, and that a great return to form after love was diminished in her post-Crisis origin.

As for Artemis, I'm glad she was returned to a more antagonistic presence. She's a goddess who shunned human society, so it never made any sense, under Perez, that she'd be the main goddess pushing for equality of the sexes. She once had a Actaeon ripped apart by his own hounds for catching a glimpse of her bathing, so being a benevolent force never made any sense.

Zola being Athena muddies up a lot of stuff. She is technically there since the beginning and is revealed to be the one who caused Steve to crash, so she plays a part in the origin. But she is also ultimately going along with her father's plan. Which I guess may be mythologically accurate in some senses, but isn't entirely satisfying after we've had the WW franchise show her as a key figure on her own. If not Athena, I think having Aphrodite's role beefed up would help considerably. Going back to the beginning, we had Aphrodite as the key figures in opposition to Ares, with Athena as her backup. Here, it's unclear who the Amazon patrons even are. Hera and Artemis don't seem to care for them, and Diana's relationship with Aphrodite is too vague.

Artemis being an antagonist isn't that bad now that you've brought up some of the myths. I do recall that she and Apollo killed a bunch of kids when their mother bragged about being better than Leto. But she just doesn't have as much agency in the plot as her brother.

With the raids- I don't know. Other writers have created murderous Amazons as well- willing to murder each other, which I find even more strange than killing men. Jimenez had Amazons killing each other because of basically a land claim, and Simone had 4 Amazons who wanted to kill Diana herself, but not one seems to care.

I think it's because we barely knew anything about the New 52 Amazons aside from Hippolyta sleeping with Zeus, and the Amazons killing innocent men and being ready to kill children if Hephaestus hadn't intervened. The Amazons are not perfect, but they need to be layered and heroic to shape and influence one of the greatest superheros of all time. Here, it just seems Diana became great in spite of them, not because of them. They have nothing of value to bring to the outside world, they do not seem to have inspired Diana and they have no technology or advancements.

In previous versions, there was more build up. Jimenez had the Themyscira Amazons and the Bana go to war, but that was building off of 2-3 other runs. So there wee more developed named characters we were invested in, plus there was history so the conflict made sense. And the story was purely about them. With the Circle, Alkyone and her cohorts were some random nutcases, not representative of a cultural norm. Whereas the raids are treated as normal by Diana's Amazons, which is a fast way to make them unsympathetic.

I would argue the Valerie Silver Swan was more influenced by her friend (name escapes me), and Nessie was a friend of Diana's already so she had a personal responsibility But all these are just one-offs that disappear from the book, whereas with Azz (and WML), you get that continuing relationship that really pushes the idea of redemption. (Although did she ever really redeem the Bana Mighdall?)

Under Azz and WML, it just keeps happening over and over.

Valerie's friend was Maxine Sterenbuch. I do kind of agree though that they both vanish from the book, so they are not nearly as effective as a character as Paula von Gunther. Whose original incarnation is sorely missed. Diana making allies out of Hera, Artemis, Siracca and Hades is very evocative of Paula's redemption, I agree.

Nessie and the current incarnation of Barbara Ann don't really work in comparison. Vanessa was already a supporting character who went bad, so Diana is already invested in saving her. Same with Barbara, although the whole point of that one is about how she'll never fully succeed. Orlando bringing back Paula is nice, though now she is an ally gone bad as well.

[Agent Z]

I like the idea that the new Zeus is more benevolent. I don't recall the details but I remember he wanted something good for Diana. Toxic masculinity has been recast in our society as a social ill, so it makes sense that the ultimate man as well is more benevolent. It's an interesting take that Zeus' new origin has him being born of his daughter, instead of the other way around. So the ultimate man is influenced born of a woman and influenced by her, instead of Athena being influenced by her father.

1) How is Zeus the ultimate man? Why should he be the ultimate man?

2) Why does toxic masculinity being recast as a social ill mean Zeus gets away with his crimes? If anything Azzarello's story reinforces toxic masculinity instead of combating it. Toxic masculinity becoming a social ill is impetus to make Zeus a villain not an benevolent being.

War, as well, is no longer seen as a glorious pursuit, so it's an interesting take that the ultimate god of War too is diminished. And even though Ares trains her, it's less that he influences her- she refuses to become a mad killer- and ultimately influences Ares to be less bloodthirsty himself. Chalk up another foe becoming more positive.

Perez and Rucka did this before and arguably better.

Hermes and Hephaestus having such big roles is nothing new- that was introduced by Perez. Hermes was the only god who hung out with Diana on a regular basis. To this Azzarello added Hera and Athena as Zola, so that's more of a goddess presence. As for Aphrodite- I always feel it was a shame that Perez reduced her to a blond bimbo type who was pretty useless. Under Azzarello, you get that mythological bent that the gods and goddesses are all trying to influence the humans, but with Aphrodite there's no such need- Diana exudes love in everything she does, and that a great return to form after love was diminished in her post-Crisis origin.

Diana's post crisis origin was that she was created by her mother who wanted a child. Her post flashpoint origin is her mother for the world's ultimate sexual predator and got knocked up. Love wasn't diminished in post crisis, it was just depicted in a more nuanced and mature manner. Anyone who claims "I love everyone" with a straight face is either lying to themselves and others or has no idea what love actually means.

As for Artemis, I'm glad she was returned to a more antagonistic presence. She's a goddess who shunned human society, so it never made any sense, under Perez, that she'd be the main goddess pushing for equality of the sexes. She once had a Actaeon ripped apart by his own hounds for catching a glimpse of her bathing, so being a benevolent force never made any sense.

So why is Aphrodite being a benevolent entity acceptable then? We are talking about the goddess who has ruined numerous women's lives by either punishing them for being more beautiful than her or making them fall in love against their will. If we were at all accurate to the myths, Diana would be preaching lust not love.

And if Zeus and Ares can be reimagined as "benevolent" deities why not Artemis?

[Agent Z]

I would argue the Valerie Silver Swan was more influenced by her friend (name escapes me), and Nessie was a friend of Diana's already so she had a personal responsibility But all these are just one-offs that disappear from the book, whereas with Azz (and WML), you get that continuing relationship that really pushes the idea of redemption. (Although did she ever really redeem the Bana Mighdall?)

Just because they didn't appear all the time or never again doesn't mean they didn't happen. Marston and Azzarello had examples of redeemed characters with little to no returns and someone else being able to redeem their friend also proves Diana's message works if anything. Diana shouldn't be the only compassionate person in the Wonder Woman book, there is and should be plenty of room for others.

I'd also ask if she ever really redeemed Hera and Ares as those two went back to being villains after Azzarello left the book.

[Agent Z]

Valerie's friend was Maxine Sterenbuch. I do kind of agree though that they both vanish from the book, so they are not nearly as effective as a character as Paula von Gunther. Whose original incarnation is sorely missed. Diana making allies out of Hera, Artemis, Siracca and Hades is very evocative of Paula's redemption, I agree.

Nessie and the current incarnation of Barbara Ann don't really work in comparison. Vanessa was already a supporting character who went bad, so Diana is already invested in saving her. Same with Barbara, although the whole point of that one is about how she'll never fully succeed. Orlando bringing back Paula is nice, though now she is an ally gone bad as well.

I find the original Paula story to be incredibly naive and borderline offensive and harmful by modern standards and it says something that she had to be retconned into being blackmailed by the nazis in order to be seen as a believable ally. With people becoming more aware of how dangerous nazism is and that these guys are not going to have a "come to Jesus" moment just because you say some pretty words makes doing anything like Paula's original story unpalatable.

Vanessa and Rebirth Barbara may have been Diana's friends but they also send a good message about not giving up on your friends (well Vanessa does, Barbara at this point is crossing too many lines for Diana to realistically keep treating her with kid gloves).

I've said this before but I feel it bears repeating. The way the some of the WW fandom and writers approach the idea of alternate methods of conflict resolution has some issues. While violence should not be used to solve every problem there are people whom cannot be stopped by any other means and using lethal force is completely fair. And this need to use alternative means as a one-size fits all solution has produced some genuinely ugly stories like Reformation Island in the Golden Age or Christopher Priest's The 18th Letter.

Post crisis Diana may not have turned all her enemies into friends but she was smart enough (most of the time) to know a lost cause when she saw one. Sometimes it is best to acknowledge that not every body can be saved or deserves to be saved. Diana is all the more mature and heroic for knowing that.

[Castling]

Wow, no love for William Messner-Loeb?

[Agent Z]

Wow, no love for William Messner-Loeb?

His run wasn't really considered good when it came out and aside from Artemis, nothing he introduced made any impact.