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  1. #451
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    Donner Superman was a prototype to Byrne Superman. So not everything translates exactly. But, yes, a lot of the elements that Byrne put in his reboot were borrowed from the movies. Prior to the movies, Krypton was always portrayed as a sort of Buck Rogers future version of Earth. The movies made it look more alien with the crystals. Byrne clearly intended his Krypton to be more alien in nature right down to putting everyone in the same type of clothing. Including the robes. Removing his history as Superboy. Having the ship he came to Earth in look more alien than just some fancy rocket. Having his powers develop more slowly. Although the movies gave him some right away. Having him be on the football team. Granted in the movies he was a water boy and not an actual player. Having at least one parent still be alive well into his career as Superman. Always before they both died before he took up the name. And, this isn't well known, but prior to Byrne, Smallville was a suburb of Metropolis. So it was actually on the eastern seaboard. The movies put it in the middle of the country. There is also him learning about Krypton from recordings. Before the reboot he had to rely on his super-memory or some found artifact that made it's way to Earth.

    No, it's not a direct translation but there are clearly enough elements there that it's obvious Byrne took inspiration from the movies. Right down to Lois' haircut!
    Sure, there are things taken like the talking to dad and farmlands/ countryside. I can give you that. But i don't see characterisation being similar. So, it's trivial for me. Donner superman like the precrisis guy was a god living with people. Byrne superman wasn't like that at all. Football thing is common in highschool stories. Recordings, holograms.. Etc are common in scifi stories.byrne superman never played the village idiot. Donner superman did like the precrisis guy. Donner superman had superintelligence since he had learned things as a baby. I feel donner superman is more like precrisis guy. Parents being alive, as i said is used in very very different way. One is for humbling a god or massiah with death of ond. The other for no reason, its just normal everyman story with both alive. Byrne superman was far too everyman to be even be close to donner superman, in characterisation. He was human till he became superhuman. I don't see the everyman superman being influenced by jesus superman. Donner on the other hand has taken clear influences interms of characterisation from precrisis guy. I can see the man of tomorrow characterisation influencing jesus superman. Btw, i knew about suburb thing.i have read the older adventures. I had used it in my compartmentalise/split superman post. I just saw it as a left over from the original superman characterisation of a vigilante. So, i gave it to the goldenage guy.also, both parents being dead is a goldenage vigilante leftover.silverage guy doesn't need it to get a point across.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-24-2020 at 09:48 AM.

  2. #452
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, it worked for Jerry O'Connel and Rebecca Romijn...
    They only did voice over. That doesn't count to me. It's not a complete portrayal to really judge.

    I much rather have Boz return as Routh's Lois IF he gets a Superman show. It's the right thing to do.

    If not, I rather someone new who fits the role. I like the suggestion of Zooey Deschanel, or someone with a lot of personality and charisma.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 01-24-2020 at 11:58 AM.

  3. #453
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Is that a sore spot for JSA fans? I know a lot of fans have general issues with the CW takes on anything, but I thought the JSA were handled relatively well. Admittedly, I've never been into the JSA so I wouldn't know what was off.
    I mean, it's not that there was anything outright bad but they barely developed any of the team, they had no impact on the wider Arrowverse, and they killed off or wrote out all the other members so casually.

    In hindsight it might have been the first sign the writers for the show wanted to move on from comic book stuff.

  4. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    They only did voice over. That doesn't count to me. It's not a complete portrayal to really judge.

    I much rather have Boz return as Routh's Lois IF he gets a Superman show. It's the right thing to do.

    If not, I rather someone new who fits the role. I like the suggestion of Zooey Deschanel, or someone with a lot of personality and charisma.

    I’m all for giving Kate another chance as it definitely was NOT her fault she was too young during Superman Returns and she was genuinely very good with Tyler Hoechlin in “The Domestics” but good grief....why do you have it out for Courtney Ford? She is a great actress, a pitch perfect Lois archetype and she has awesome chemistry with her husband on Legends. Did she run over your dog or something?

  5. #455
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    I’m all for giving Kate another chance as it definitely was NOT her fault she was too young during Superman Returns and she was genuinely very good with Tyler Hoechlin in “The Domestics” but good grief....why do you have it out for Courtney Ford? She is a great actress, a pitch perfect Lois archetype and she has awesome chemistry with her husband on Legends. Did she run over your dog or something?

    I just don't find it appealing. You do, I don't. Just accept it. I haven't said anything offensive about Courtney as a person or actress, I just don't want her as Lois.

  6. #456
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I don't know who I'd want as Lois. I'm picky when it comes to her casting. Erica Durance is really the only actress I've ever been completely satisfied with even if I wasn't completely in love with the particular show. But she hit everything for me. Likewise CW Lois does very little for me either. To be fair though I think that's more of a result of me finding just a complete lack of chemistry I get between her and Hoechlin mainly because I think Hoechlin just isn't a good Superman, and it affects her part too outside of her own control.

    I do know I'd prefer completely moving on from the Returns cast outside of Routh though in the event he did get a show. She just wasn't right for the part and still isn't, imo. Same problem as above to me, only reversed. No chemistry with Routh because she just didn't portray a good Lois.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-24-2020 at 02:36 PM.
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  7. #457
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I don't know who I'd want as Lois. I'm picky when it comes to her casting. Erica Durance is really the only actress I've ever been completely satisfied with even if I wasn't completely in love with the particular show. But she hit everything for me. Likewise CW Lois does very little for me either. To be fair though I think that's more of a result of me finding just a complete lack of chemistry I get between her and Hoechlin mainly because I think Hoechlin just isn't a good Superman, and it affects her part too outside of her own control.

    I do know I'd prefer completely moving on from the Returns cast outside of Routh though in the event he did get a show. She just wasn't right for the part and still isn't, imo. Same problem as above to me, only reversed. No chemistry with Routh because she just didn't portray a good Lois.
    I just feel Hoechlin doesn't have the gravitas or presence that an epic character like Superman deserves, imo. Felt the same with Dean Cain, but I think he didn't play Superman too well, he was a better Clark Kent. This tweet explains it well, Hoechlin doesn't really have his own story yet.. We were told he killed Zod, but we never saw it. Lex says he HATES him, but they don't even interact.. Crisis should have been a great opportunity to make people more excited about Hoechlin, but it seems the opposite happened and people now want a Routh Superman show instead. I kind of feel sorry for Hoechlin, but not really. He keeps coming back for the same crappy writing. Routh said, in an interview I posted recently, that he had some conditions for his Superman appearance, and I admire that.



    "Crisis clips are really highlighting my issues with Hoechlin's Superman. Routh feels like his own Superman even if he's a spin on Reeve. Welling is likewise without a doubt his own Clark Kent. Hoechlin's just a collection of ticks people associate with Superman."
    Last edited by stargazer01; 01-24-2020 at 03:53 PM.

  8. #458
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    "Crisis clips are really highlighting my issues with Hoechlin's Superman. Routh feels like his own Superman even if he's a spin on Reeve. Welling is likewise without a doubt his own Clark Kent. Hoechlin's just a collection of ticks people associate with Superman."
    The hilarious thing is this describes Routh's Superman in Crisis to me 100%. He spouted a bunch of fortune cookie stuff about hope to everyone but didn't do much else. But because his suit had better padding and shading everyone was tripping over themselves to compliment him. I really like Routh, but there wasn't anything in his performance any other actors couldn't have pulled off.

    Hoechlins first two episodes of Supergirl are excellent and in no way "a collection of ticks". Similarly, he was great in last years crossover, and there are some great moments in Crisis that are far more "Superman" than being muscular and talking about hope. The heat vision scene and his last moments on the Wave Rider were excellent.

  9. #459
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    A summary of the Superman content in part 2 of 2 of the Walmart Crisis tie-in comic (I covered the first part here):

    spoilers:
    The main story remains focused on the standard Arrowverse characters, particularly Felicity, who hilariously spends most of the story in a journey to Earth 12 and the Ryan Reynoldsverse Oa, with appearances by the Guardians, Mark Strong's Sinestro, and Killowog. However, we do get a glimpse of an assemblage of heroes fighting the Anti-Monitor at the dawn of time of Earth-85, an Earth that's an homage to the comics Crisis with a battalion including the original versions of Harbinger, Pariah, and Alex Luthor, as well as for our purposes here two Supermen, Power Girl, and Superboy. Felicity was the one who learned about Routh being one of the Paragons and told the Monitor (apparently this actually took place between parts 1 and 2 of the crossover proper, with the Luthor story during part 2), and in the end a group shot of the heroes of the Arrowverse has Hoechlin's Superman at the very front along with Barry.

    The Superman-centric backup has the assemblage of Supermen (this time including Electric Blue, Calvin Ellis, Lord Superman, and Lion Head Superman) - identified as the Council of Supermen - meet with Superman-38 while Lex-38 is put on trial by the Council of Luthors for telling his Superman about their existence and prompting their gathering (Lex, noting that it would be the Crisis that brought them together rather than the Luthors, hilariously retaliates "I know how crazy this sounds given who I'm talking to, but...don't be so narcissistic."); in a rough continuity patch as Guggenheim and Wolfman clearly remembered after the fact that Earth-38 had already been destroyed and so Superman couldn't have been in his own Fortress in part one, it's revealed that the dimensional collapse is affecting perceptions, and Clark actually went to the Fortress of Earth-86. Anyway, the Luthors are constructing an army of classic battle suits to allow them to kill the Supermen, but the Supermen have learned their location and attack their headquarters before they're fully ready, and amidst the fighting 'our' Superman and Lex arrange the self-destruction of the Luthors' base, disabling their Kryptonite weaponry and scattering them to the dimensional winds as Superman returns Lex to captivity aboard the Waverider. Lex mulls that while he couldn't let these 'knockoffs' kill Superman, he realizes they had the right idea, sparking his multiversal rampage with the Book of Destiny. Straightforward, but a gaggle of good character bits, such as this exchange:

    "Could you please..." "Get you somewhere a touch safer?" "It's like you can read my mind." "You're hardly complicated, Luthor. Just selfish." "Sweet-talk me all you want. I'm never going to stop trying to kill you."

    And upon Lex's success:

    "Well done. Thank--" "Don't thank me. I'm really quite conflicted about you not dying."

    Also Cryer's Lex, while not wanting the others to get the honor of killing Superman, does pause for a moment for a moment before disabling their weapons to watch the Luthors blast Hoechlin with Kryptonite and think to himself "I mean, look at that. Beautiful.", which is pretty great.
    end of spoilers
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  10. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    The hilarious thing is this describes Routh's Superman in Crisis to me 100%. He spouted a bunch of fortune cookie stuff about hope to everyone but didn't do much else. But because his suit had better padding and shading everyone was tripping over themselves to compliment him. I really like Routh, but there wasn't anything in his performance any other actors couldn't have pulled off.

    Hoechlins first two episodes of Supergirl are excellent and in no way "a collection of ticks". Similarly, he was great in last years crossover, and there are some great moments in Crisis that are far more "Superman" than being muscular and talking about hope. The heat vision scene and his last moments on the Wave Rider were excellent.
    Yeah I agree. Honestly, the way some people treat Tyler Hoechlin is outright bizarre to me and downright nasty to boot. That guy is not responsible for the writing they have him on Supergirl. People act like he wrote the scripts himself which is ridiculous.

    It’s silly to write Hoechlin off when he has yet to actually get a chance to be in a project that actually centers around Superman. Comparing him to Routh or Welling is equally silly and unfair as both of those actors had time prior to Crisis to develop a strong connection with the audience AND they were given better screentime to then capitalize on it.

    Elizabeth Tulloch was electric during the crossover but that’s also because the writers let her interact with more than one Superman but then poor Tyler didn’t get to interact with any other Lois.

    Routh benefited from Tulloch being there as the scenes that seem to have hit people the hardest with him are the ones with Routh and Lois. It’s a cheat. It doesn’t mean that Hoechlin isn’t a good Superman, it means the narrative set Routh up as the one with the emotional beats. Do those scenes hit as hard if he’s talking to a stranger as opposed to a pretty woman who looks eerily like Margot Kidder? Of course not. And the writers knew it hence why his “Hope” speech was delivered to a compassionate Lois asking him if he’s ok. These writers are subtle as a sledgehammer and they knew exactly what they were doing just as they knew exactly what they were doing with the “have we met before” with the darn John Williams love theme playing underneath. The narrative was set up explicitly to make you side with Routh and then people turn around and bash Tyler as if he was even given an equal chance.

    Tyler is a natural athlete and has an easy, kind presence to him. His smile is beautiful and he radiates warmth. He was electric when he first appeared on Supergirl and he was electric during the proposal scene at the end of Elseworlds. In 2 minutes last year, they sold people enough on Lois and Clark that people were begging for a series. The reality is fandom is fickle as all get out and always wants the newest shiny thing.

    There is no reason to write Tyler off before he’s even truly been given a real shot. That’s unfair.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 01-25-2020 at 10:21 AM.

  11. #461
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    The hilarious thing is this describes Routh's Superman in Crisis to me 100%. He spouted a bunch of fortune cookie stuff about hope to everyone but didn't do much else. But because his suit had better padding and shading everyone was tripping over themselves to compliment him. I really like Routh, but there wasn't anything in his performance any other actors couldn't have pulled off.

    Hoechlins first two episodes of Supergirl are excellent and in no way "a collection of ticks". Similarly, he was great in last years crossover, and there are some great moments in Crisis that are far more "Superman" than being muscular and talking about hope. The heat vision scene and his last moments on the Wave Rider were excellent.
    I feel like that's underselling just how good a job Routh did of fitting back into the role of Superman. For someone who hasn't played the role in years he put on the suit and the Clark/Supes persona back on in such a way that it fit like a glove. I thought it was his performance that carried the portrayal more then the material did, although the Donner nods were nice.

    I mean, yeah, he looked amazing in that suit, but I think it's unfair to say that's the only reason people enjoyed seeing him as Superman again.

    If it felt like he didn't get to do much other then make general speeches about Hope, that's less of an issue on Routh and more the writing for just not giving him much to do, which was probably the biggest issue for Crisis as as a crossover with all the characters it had in it.

    I'm excited for Hoechlin to have his own show though, and to be as far away from Kara as possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    A summary of the Superman content in part 2 of 2 of the Walmart Crisis tie-in comic (I covered the first part here):

    spoilers:
    The main story remains focused on the standard Arrowverse characters, particularly Felicity, who hilariously spends most of the story in a journey to Earth 12 and the Ryan Reynoldsverse Oa, with appearances by the Guardians, Mark Strong's Sinestro, and Killowog. However, we do get a glimpse of an assemblage of heroes fighting the Anti-Monitor at the dawn of time of Earth-85, an Earth that's an homage to the comics Crisis with a battalion including the original versions of Harbinger, Pariah, and Alex Luthor, as well as for our purposes here two Supermen, Power Girl, and Superboy. Felicity was the one who learned about Routh being one of the Paragons and told the Monitor (apparently this actually took place between parts 1 and 2 of the crossover proper, with the Luthor story during part 2), and in the end a group shot of the heroes of the Arrowverse has Hoechlin's Superman at the very front along with Barry.

    The Superman-centric backup has the assemblage of Supermen (this time including Electric Blue, Calvin Ellis, Lord Superman, and Lion Head Superman) - identified as the Council of Supermen - meet with Superman-38 while Lex-38 is put on trial by the Council of Luthors for telling his Superman about their existence and prompting their gathering (Lex, noting that it would be the Crisis that brought them together rather than the Luthors, hilariously retaliates "I know how crazy this sounds given who I'm talking to, but...don't be so narcissistic."); in a rough continuity patch as Guggenheim and Wolfman clearly remembered after the fact that Earth-38 had already been destroyed and so Superman couldn't have been in his own Fortress in part one, it's revealed that the dimensional collapse is affecting perceptions, and Clark actually went to the Fortress of Earth-86. Anyway, the Luthors are constructing an army of classic battle suits to allow them to kill the Supermen, but the Supermen have learned their location and attack their headquarters before they're fully ready, and amidst the fighting 'our' Superman and Lex arrange the self-destruction of the Luthors' base, disabling their Kryptonite weaponry and scattering them to the dimensional winds as Superman returns Lex to captivity aboard the Waverider. Lex mulls that while he couldn't let these 'knockoffs' kill Superman, he realizes they had the right idea, sparking his multiversal rampage with the Book of Destiny. Straightforward, but a gaggle of good character bits, such as this exchange:

    "Could you please..." "Get you somewhere a touch safer?" "It's like you can read my mind." "You're hardly complicated, Luthor. Just selfish." "Sweet-talk me all you want. I'm never going to stop trying to kill you."

    And upon Lex's success:

    "Well done. Thank--" "Don't thank me. I'm really quite conflicted about you not dying."

    Also Cryer's Lex, while not wanting the others to get the honor of killing Superman, does pause for a moment for a moment before disabling their weapons to watch the Luthors blast Hoechlin with Kryptonite and think to himself "I mean, look at that. Beautiful.", which is pretty great.
    end of spoilers
    It's kind of hilarious that Hoechlin's Supes and Cryer's Luthor end up interacting more in this tie-in comic then the actual actors have .

  12. #462
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I feel like that's underselling just how good a job Routh did of fitting back into the role of Superman. For someone who hasn't played the role in years he put on the suit and the Clark/Supes persona back on in such a way that it fit like a glove. I thought it was his performance that carried the portrayal more then the material did, although the Donner nods were nice.

    I mean, yeah, he looked amazing in that suit, but I think it's unfair to say that's the only reason people enjoyed seeing him as Superman again.

    If it felt like he didn't get to do much other then make general speeches about Hope, that's less of an issue on Routh and more the writing for just not giving him much to do, which was probably the biggest issue for Crisis as as a crossover with all the characters it had in it.
    I'm not trying to trash Routh, I like him a lot. I like his Superman a lot. But he's played Ray Plamer for the last 4 years as more or less a take on his Clark Kent. The distance between those two performances is not vast. His Superman acting was fine, but he didn't do anything of consequence with it beside speechify on hope. There's no battles except the stalemate with Hoechlin, he doesn't "rally the troops," etc. His CGI fight with Hoechlin was actually pretty balanced between the two. He then got turned evil by Lex, went back and forth with Hoechlin, makes a few speeches, then gets killed and replaced by Lex.

    So what else is this praise he get's for "presence" besides his look? Which if they redid Hoechlin's suit and gave him better blocking in the scenes they'd be 90% of the way there.

    As far as Hoechlin goes for his own show, you can already see how they are building up Superman to be the central hero of the Arrowverse now. There's a line in the latest episode of Legends of Tomorrow where once Sara and Ray get back to the Wave Rider they ask them about the crossover and specifically ask "Was Superman there? It's not a big crossover unless Superman is there." Similarly Barry's reaction to Superman's praise on the Hall of Justice is a subtle signal to his importance.

  13. #463
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Comparing Hoechlin’s superman character who is supposed to be a sidecharacter and Routh's guest appearance as superman is comparing apples and oranges. Hoechlin’s superman even as side character doesn't steal the show, while Routh's does. That's why he is appreciated, especially. Not to mention the fact that the character short guest appearance had some depth and was crisp. The endurance of the character and context of the lost loved ones including wife is more than enough for the audiences to connect with the character. If that's cheating then bruce wayne crying "mommy and daddy" is also one. These kind of things are common troupes. And effectiveness of it depends on execution. I am fairly certain it worked cause routh embodied what is fundamental to the character of superman.

  14. #464
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    The suit didn't make Brandon an impressive Superman, he did with his presence and acting skills. Sure, the writing did him more favors than Hoechlin so far, imo. I'd feel pretty let down if I was him honestly. A lot of fans and critics noticed too not just me or few others. I care about the character first and foremost than any actor, by the way, and I really think the CW has done big damage to my fave superhero. It really hurts.


    "From the get-go, Hoechlin's Man of Steel has had a tough time. His look and portrayal haven't been widely accepted by large portions of the fanbase, while others feel his role as a supporting character on Supergirl did him more harm than good. For many fans, Superman is meant to be an iconic hero at the front and center of the DC Universe -- not merely as a plot device to further Kara Danver's story."

    https://www.cbr.com/crisis-brandon-r...-hoechlin/amp/

  15. #465
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    The suit didn't make Brandon an impressive Superman, he did with his presence and acting skills. Sure, the writing did him more favors than Hoechlin so far, imo. I'd feel pretty let down if I was him honestly. A lot of fans and critics noticed too not just me or few others. I care about the character first and foremost than any actor, by the way, and I really think the CW has done big damage to my fave superhero. It really hurts.


    "From the get-go, Hoechlin's Man of Steel has had a tough time. His look and portrayal haven't been widely accepted by large portions of the fanbase, while others feel his role as a supporting character on Supergirl did him more harm than good. For many fans, Superman is meant to be an iconic hero at the front and center of the DC Universe -- not merely as a plot device to further Kara Danver's story."

    https://www.cbr.com/crisis-brandon-r...-hoechlin/amp/
    The CW executives must have missed CBR's proclamation that the show had been destroyed when they ordered it straight to series. And honestly, I doubt that most of the people complaining about Hoechlin have done more than watch a few youtube clips and most have zero intention of watching any CW series even if it stared Routh. Because we already have a thread of that where people were complaining about CW.
    Last edited by Yoda; 01-25-2020 at 12:31 PM.

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