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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    And can I say how great Black Lightning's response was to seeing Superman is real? That was awesome!
    Yes, it was. And exactly how I would have reacted, though I would have gotten autographs and selfies too...

    Here's a thought though, it's obvious that this isn't ending the way it did in the comics...Kal-L ended it IIRC in the comics by throwing a moon at the AM, with an assist from Darkseid's Omega beams, all of which pushed the AM into a sun. Since the closest Kal-L analogue here was Routh's SM, and all other SM are gone...how are they going to end it? I have my theories based on the SG/Batwoman interaction, but the question remains, who actually pulls that trigger? Luthor has it now, but will her "redeem" himself somehow by doing the deed, despite knowing the price? Will it be SG in the Kal-L role, except having her do it by using that? Batwoman? My money's on you know who in green, given the price said to be exacted. Especially since he's used to playing so many other characters.

  2. #242
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    People are holding up Injustice as some of pinnacle of Superman storytelling or indicator of what could happen?

    ...

    Yikes. I find Injustice to be the most idiotic fan fiction type of thing ever.
    Up until now it was the most mainstream “What if Lois died?” story that people had seen and it had Superman going evil. So many people thought Joker Killing Routh’s Lois was an Injustice reference until I explained to them what Kingdom Come was. It’s why I’m happy they kept Lois’ death in, after Injustice f***** Superman’s pop culture image even more, having a Superman in a big media project with a dead Lois who DIDN’T lose it felt necessary to me. And they even made it better since Routh Superman didn’t quit or give up! He did what I always thought Superman would do, mourn and bury Lois but move on with his life. Very happy with how that played out.

    And we even got Evil Batman to finally show up outside comics! This crossover has been great for us Super-fans lol.

  3. #243
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Up until now it was the most mainstream “What if Lois died?” story that people had seen and it had Superman going evil. So many people thought Joker Killing Routh’s Lois was an Injustice reference until I explained to them what Kingdom Come was. It’s why I’m happy they kept Lois’ death in, after Injustice f***** Superman’s pop culture image even more, having a Superman in a big media project with a dead Lois who DIDN’T lose it felt necessary to me. And they even made it better since Routh Superman didn’t quit or give up! He did what I always thought Superman would do, mourn and bury Lois but move on with his life. Very happy with how that played out.

    And we even got Evil Batman to finally show up outside comics! This crossover has been great for us Super-fans lol.
    Well, I mean the critical difference is that this Superman still had his son, Jason. That's not something KC or Injustice Superman had, so it's not clear how this Superman would have handled things had he experienced the same level of losses. Also, keep in mind that KC Superman didn't quit because of Lois' death. He only retired after the public turned against his values, as seen in their desire to see Joker receive capital punishment for what he had done, and embraced Magog instead. It's unclear if that same sequence of events happened to Routh's KC/Donner Superman.

  4. #244
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Well, I mean the critical difference is that this Superman still had his son, Jason. That's not something KC or Injustice Superman had, so it's not clear how this Superman would have handled things had he experienced the same level of losses. Also, keep in mind that KC Superman didn't quit because of Lois' death. He only retired after the public turned against his values, as seen in their desire to see Joker receive capital punishment for what he had done, and embraced Magog instead. It's unclear if that same sequence of events happened to Routh's KC/Donner Superman.
    But ultimately none of that really matters - ever since Injustice came out the narrative has been "kill Lois and Superman goes evil". Now we have a version that didn't. All the little details don't matter, what matters is having a counter example in mainstream media to point to and help lessen, even if just a tiny little bit, the popular Injustice narrative on Superman. I personally don't take this stuff as seriously as many fans here, but even so I will admit we kind of needed something like this.


    Although a small role in a CW crossover isn't going to penetrate as deeply as that super popular game, but at least a dent was made.

  5. #245
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    But ultimately none of that really matters - ever since Injustice came out the narrative has been "kill Lois and Superman goes evil". Now we have a version that didn't. All the little details don't matter, what matters is having a counter example in mainstream media to point to and help lessen, even if just a tiny little bit, the popular Injustice narrative on Superman. I personally don't take this stuff as seriously as many fans here, but even so I will admit we kind of needed something like this.


    Although a small role in a CW crossover isn't going to penetrate as deeply as that super popular game, but at least a dent was made.
    I don't disagree that it's nice to have a new and more positive spin on the general idea of Superman's reaction to Lois' death. I just don't know if it the situations are comparable enough to make the strongest case for that, but for casual observers and on a kind of mainstream superficial level, it's close enough.

  6. #246
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Hmmm, the more I think about it, the more disappointing it seems to think that this is the future of Reeve/Donner Superman. But in a world of infinite parallel universes, I'm okay with a Superman whose life started like Reeve's, moved on to Routh's, and then ended somewhat similarly to Ross/Waid's.
    I'm not disappointed, because Routh Superman at least got the chance to marry Lois and apparently see his son Jason grow up some. In Superman 2 we are told he can't be Superman and be with Lois, so this is better. And it seems he still was Superman even after her death and a just and good man. All I wanted was to see his Superman written well and with respect, and I got that and more. Routh looked so awesome as Superman. Sadly, I can't say the same about Tyler. Even his Lois was in awe of Routh..

    I liked parts 2 and 3 of the crossover (haven't seen part 1). It was very entertaining in general. Sad to see Routh Superman disappear, tho. Also Jon Cryer as Lex didn't disappoint at all. Dude plays a very good Lex and I love his obsession with Superman haha. I so wish we could see Routh as Superman again. He's so good in the role and looks impressive in the suit. Oh and to me he is a continuation of Donner's Superman, he even has the music. If someone doesn't like it, you can ignore it, no big deal lol.

    Also, Welling was fine, I liked him. I was never invested in his version, so I don't feel betrayed with his ending. I kind of like it.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 12-11-2019 at 02:06 PM.

  7. #247
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    I don't disagree that it's nice to have a new and more positive spin on the general idea of Superman's reaction to Lois' death. I just don't know if it the situations are comparable enough to make the strongest case for that, but for casual observers and on a kind of mainstream superficial level, it's close enough.
    That's what I'm getting at - to the mainstream they're not going over all the details, most just take in the surface level details of pop culture, that why "Superman goes evil" is so big these days, surface level of Injustice, a super popular game. Most of them won't be found on sites like this citing sources and debating all the little details like we do. We don't need "An exact and complete copy of Injustice Superman in every way, except when his Lois dies he doesn't go evil" we just need a "Superman who doesn't go evil when Lois is killed". The superficial level is the important level, that's the level that stands out in pop culture and therefore influences opinions.

  8. #248
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    That's what I'm getting at - to the mainstream they're not going over all the details, most just take in the surface level details of pop culture, that why "Superman goes evil" is so big these days, surface level of Injustice, a super popular game. Most of them won't be found on sites like this citing sources and debating all the little details like we do. We don't need "An exact and complete copy of Injustice Superman in every way, except when his Lois dies he doesn't go evil" we just need a "Superman who doesn't go evil when Lois is killed". The superficial level is the important level, that's the level that stands out in pop culture and therefore influences opinions.
    Fair enough. I will say that I just want fewer stories where Lois dies. Period. As a fan, I'm so tired of it being used as a plot point.

  9. #249
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Not sure what this means but I like it.

    So how did Black Lighting know of Superman? Not sure


  10. #250
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Well, I mean the critical difference is that this Superman still had his son, Jason. That's not something KC or Injustice Superman had, so it's not clear how this Superman would have handled things had he experienced the same level of losses. Also, keep in mind that KC Superman didn't quit because of Lois' death. He only retired after the public turned against his values, as seen in their desire to see Joker receive capital punishment for what he had done, and embraced Magog instead. It's unclear if that same sequence of events happened to Routh's KC/Donner Superman.
    I know but your average casual doesn’t think too deeply about these things, and frankly neither does NRS. In the games Lois is the only death that actually matters, they don’t bring up that Lex was never evil and not having his archenemy probably made that Superman soft, or that Metropolis got freaking nuked (wtf is Harley not executed or imprisoned for that?) or how Taylor threw in that Injustice Superman had control problems like how he threw a temper tantrum when he lost his blanket as a kid and wrecked the house, or the first thing he did when he discovered his powers was stay up all day and night watching for threats with creepy red eyes. People just latch on to “oh Lois dies and Superman went insane”. So I’ll take ANYTHING that doesn’t go that route.
    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Fair enough. I will say that I just want fewer stories where Lois dies. Period. As a fan, I'm so tired of it being used as a plot point.
    Trust me, Lois being used as a plot device so hacks can tell their damn Batman vs. Superman story burns me up like little else. But we’re getting a Superman and Lois show so fans of Lois will be well served. This just felt like a much needed counterbalance to the tripe NRS was selling. And that we got an Evil Batman gave me a very petty satisfaction.

  11. #251
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Not sure what this means but I like it.

    So how did Black Lighting know of Superman? Not sure
    I'm pretty sure Superman (and Supergirl) were like they are for us in the BL universe: fictional characters. It was kind of implied, I believe (info here), when Supergirl was mentioned in the first season of the show in the context of cosplay and comic books. So, for Jefferson, seeing that the supers were real was a treat and a shock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Trust me, Lois being used as a plot device so hacks can tell their damn Batman vs. Superman story burns me up like little else. But we’re getting a Superman and Lois show so fans of Lois will be well served. This just felt like a much needed counterbalance to the tripe NRS was selling. And that we got an Evil Batman gave me a very petty satisfaction.
    It was definitely preferable to the alternative, which was a cold or brutal Superman who couldn't find a way out of the darkness.

  12. #252
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Even DCEU and DCAU entertained the idea that Lois' death would inevitably result in EVIL Superman. Kind of makes you wonder how it gained so much traction.

    Was it a linear, cause-and-effect phenomenon, or did a whole bunch of writers all come to the same awful conclusion?

  13. #253
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Even DCEU and DCAU entertained the idea that Lois' death would inevitably result in EVIL Superman. Kind of makes you wonder how it gained so much traction.

    Was it a linear, cause-and-effect phenomenon, or did a whole bunch of writers all come to the same awful conclusion?
    I think the trope started in the early post-Crisis era after SM's engagement: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/super...01/4000-71043/ 🤔

  14. #254
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    I think the trope started in the early post-Crisis era after SM's engagement: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/super...01/4000-71043/ ��
    It is one of the earlier instances, but luckily for us the in-continuity stories tended to buck this notion.

    If I had to guess, it usually happens when stories are written by non-Superman fans trying to appeal to non-Superman fans.

    Oh well.

  15. #255
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    It is one of the earlier instances, but luckily for us the in-continuity stories tended to buck this notion.

    If I had to guess, it usually happens when stories are written by non-Superman fans trying to appeal to non-Superman fans.

    Oh well.
    The antifans, of course! Crisis of Infinite Trolling!

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