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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    That was basically the entire core of the Post Crisis Superman, and since that’s what they’re drawing from mostly nowadays, that’s why it keeps showing up. It’s annoying as hell because the idiots who say he’s boring and perfect have never read his comics or seen him in outside media and never will. Trying to win those people over is a lost cause because they’ve already made up their minds and are never even going to check him out anyway.

    I’m just going to hope Hoechlin will get better treatment in his own show.
    How do you know they've never read his comics? I don't agree that Superman is boring but one can read about him and still come to that conclusion.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Hoechlin really does do a great job with the material they give him. I thought he actually came off far better in the fight with Routh's Superman than people want to admit. And the heat vision scene and then asking Routh if he was ok was fantastic. That's more "Superman" to me than the speech about hope. Hoechlin's suit continues to suck, but he really embodies a great take on Superman.

    I think Routh's Superman might be done for the crossover at this point. He hasn't shown up in any of the photos of the "final battle" that leaked from the Arrow portion.

    Tulloch's Lois is doing better than both of them. I didn't really have any doubt before, but she is really on her way to embodying the role. Erica Durrance is probably still going to be my favorite version of the character, but the amount of material they've given Tulloch and the way she's handled it have really been great.
    The rumors I have heard suggest that you canít really interpret the photos exactly as they look. Thereís a twist involving who remembers what and whether the reformed reality is quite permanent.

    The show is following the comicís main beats pretty faithfully with twists.

    Remember how everybody wakes up in COIE #10 or 11? And they interview Lex in prison who doesnít remember the Crisis and Earth-2 Superman tries to go back to Earth-2? And Robin-2 and Huntress are still around?

    What Iím hearing is like that but different. Thereís a Battle at the Dawn of Time with the Spectre.

    Things get back to normal but then thereís a final battle.

    Thereís a moment where it feels like theyíve won and then you get a twist and something very much inspired by COIE #12.

  3. #303
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    How do you know they've never read his comics? I don't agree that Superman is boring but one can read about him and still come to that conclusion.
    That can be said about anything and everything. This ain't about subjectivity. It's about trying to force a character into something thats falling flat on its face.

  4. #304
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    Can we just make the Routh Superman the official Superman now? Every incarnation going forward has to be based on him.
    As much as I like Tyler, I have to admit Routh's Superman does just seem to have a much stronger presence and physique for Superman, especially when you look at them side-by-side.
    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    I'm really liking Tulloch as Lois in this. Last crossover she was given few cringy lines, not really her fault. But I wasn't sold. But here I think she's the best Lois since Durance.
    Is it wrong that I felt she had really great chemistry with Routh's Superman?
    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    And on a personal note, even with the limited screen time, relatively low importance placed on his character, and two fan service Supermen showing up, I genuinely think Hoechlin's Superman stole the show in terms of character and likability. Routh's Superman was a bit melodramatic even for these shows, and the majority of things that came out of his mouth were hamfisted callbacks ("he reminds me of my son, Jason?" How, Superman? How could that possibly be when you f%#ked off to space before Jason was even a thing let alone a baby?) Don't get me wrong, I still dug the hell out of him (though his suit in motion and with that lighting is a bit off), and I hope he throws a got damn moon at the Antimonitor before this is over, but he felt kind of hollow for me.
    I felt it was more "gravitas" then "melodramatic," but to each their own .
    And I'm secretly hoping they pull a Kingdom Hearts and have Hoechlin's Superman inherent the "paragon of truth" thing at the last second. Possibility even super charge him with the essence of Routh's Superman as a call back to Reborn in a passing of the baton way. A symbolic gesture to welcome in his new show.
    I feel like they need to give Routh's Superman something after what they did to him, given this is probably the last time we're ever going to see him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Hoechlin really does do a great job with the material they give him. I thought he actually came off far better in the fight with Routh's Superman than people want to admit. And the heat vision scene and then asking Routh if he was ok was fantastic. That's more "Superman" to me than the speech about hope. Hoechlin's suit continues to suck, but he really embodies a great take on Superman.
    Speeches about hope are pretty Superman too .

    I think the real problem with Tyler is it still feels like they're treating him like a Supergirl supporting character. I mean, Lex has had more dialogue with Kara in this crossover then he actually has with his own Superman, and this Lex can't shut up for five minutes about how much he hates Superman.

    I wonder if they could somehow merge Hoechlin and Routh's suit into a Reborn costume.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Flash looks awful now, that red is way too bright for tv lighting, looks garish to me. I much preferred his earlier outfits. Red is one of those colors where a little goes a long way, and that shade is just too much.
    I love it because it actually looks comic-accurate and stands out very well. The old color just looks garish to me now.

  5. #305
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    I don't really need or even want Superman to be the strongest in the League but I agree that there is suppose to be a certain amount of competency and wonder linked with this character. If he's suppose to be a glorified cheerleader then he doesn't need powers for that. But I just don't see how anyone can conclude that Siegel and Shuster wanted Superman to be used as a tool to prop up other characters. Frankly this isn't just Hoechlin's problem it's been a slow moving decay within the character for a while now, Hoechlin is basically the most blatant example of it.

    The overall saga of modern Superman has been a guy who's been given very big shoes to fill and seems to continuously prove he can't.
    I do need to see Superman as the strongest in the league and Earth. He is so powerful he could rule it. The difference is he is a good guy and he can't be corrupted. What makes him stand out for me is his personality and how he does things. He is humble and super nice to people, but he is also a real badass when he has to. That's my Superman.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 12-14-2019 at 11:40 PM.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    As much as I like Tyler, I have to admit Routh's Superman does just seem to have a much stronger presence and physique for Superman, especially when you look at them side-by-side.

    Is it wrong that I felt she had really great chemistry with Routh's Superman?

    I felt it was more "gravitas" then "melodramatic," but to each their own .

    I feel like they need to give Routh's Superman something after what they did to him, given this is probably the last time we're ever going to see him.

    Speeches about hope are pretty Superman too .

    I think the real problem with Tyler is it still feels like they're treating him like a Supergirl supporting character. I mean, Lex has had more dialogue with Kara in this crossover then he actually has with his own Superman, and this Lex can't shut up for five minutes about how much he hates Superman.

    I wonder if they could somehow merge Hoechlin and Routh's suit into a Reborn costume.


    I love it because it actually looks comic-accurate and stands out very well. The old color just looks garish to me now.

    I like the way you think.

  7. #307
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    A summary of the Superman-related content in the first of the two Walmart tie-in comics, for those who aren't getting that:

    spoilers:
    Both stories are cowritten by Marc Guggenheim and Marv Wolfman, and are set between episodes 2 and 3 of Crisis. The lead story penciled by Tom Derenick focuses on Pariah and the main Arrowverse stars dealing with one of the Anti-Monitor's plans, but on a Superman-centric basis, as we cut across Earths we see the destruction of Earths N52 (a New 52-inspired universe home to a Justice League in that template) and F (home of the Fleischer Superman), and a battle on Earth D modeled after Wolfman's "Legends of the DC Universe: Crisis on Infinite Earths" special - this world too is home to the Justice Alliance, with its version of Superman.

    The backup feature penciled by Tom Grummett is the lead as far as Superman content goes. After an odd opening showing a failed breakout seemingly resulting in his death by a classic mad scientist Luthor on Earth-1938 as he tries to answer a mental trans-dimensional summons - likely this will come back around - Cryer's Luthor is sprung from his confinement aboard the Waverider by Gene Hackman's Lex to join a council of Luthors orbiting Earth-99. Including among the crowd clear visual allusions to Earth-2's Alexi, Byrne's Luthor, Silver and Bronze Age Lex's, Lex in his power armor, a Luthor in the golden Alex Luthor armor but clearly still Lex, good 'ol 'Lex Luthor II', and a few who might be Rosenbaum, they plan to take advantage of the Crisis to conqueror their respective worlds and kill the Supermen of the Multiverse. While he previously had the same idea, Cryer's Lex is the only one willing to acknowledge that they've reached the point of simply having to work with Superman and the other heroes (even if he asserts they need to work for him rather than with him) and marches out of the council. Knowing they'll set out to kill him in retaliation - since it's what he'd do to any of them - he goes to Earth 38's Fortress of Solitude and meets Hoechlin's Superman (who oddly has the yellow S-shield on his cape in here) to demand his protection, only for Power Armor Luthor to snatch him away and leave behind a killer robot for Superman to deal with. Clark trashes it quickly - lambasting himself for having wasted a moment returning to the Fortress in the middle of the Crisis in the first place, but it was his first time back on Earth in a year and he wanted to grab a Kryptonian rattle for Jonathan - but just as it occurs to him he'll need help if he's up against an entire cabal of Luthors, the issue closes with an equivalent league of Supermen revealing itself to him, including Kingdom Come Superman (not certain it's Routh), Superwoman, classic Earth-2 Superman, a real Wayne Boring-lookin' fella, Superman immediately after returning from death with the black suit and mullet (maybe the Superman of Earth-75 had a speedy recovery time?), Bizarro, Superman from that time he faked being a future Superman with a gigantic brain but presumably real this time, one with a funky-looking costume I don't quite recognize but looks a bit familiar, a few generic background Supermen, giant red ant head Superman, and Beppo the Super-Monkey!
    end of spoilers
    You can follow me on Twitter or Tumblr, if more of my opinions sounds like something you'd like.

  8. #308
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    A summary of the Superman-related content in the first of the two Walmart tie-in comics, for those who aren't getting that:

    spoilers:
    Both stories are cowritten by Marc Guggenheim and Marv Wolfman, and are set between episodes 2 and 3 of Crisis. The lead story penciled by Tom Derenick focuses on Pariah and the main Arrowverse stars dealing with one of the Anti-Monitor's plans, but on a Superman-centric basis, as we cut across Earths we see the destruction of Earths N52 (a New 52-inspired universe home to a Justice League in that template) and F (home of the Fleischer Superman), and a battle on Earth D modeled after Wolfman's "Legends of the DC Universe: Crisis on Infinite Earths" special - this world too is home to the Justice Alliance, with its version of Superman.

    The backup feature penciled by Tom Grummett is the lead as far as Superman content goes. After an odd opening showing a failed breakout seemingly resulting in his death by a classic mad scientist Luthor on Earth-1938 as he tries to answer a mental trans-dimensional summons - likely this will come back around - Cryer's Luthor is sprung from his confinement aboard the Waverider by Gene Hackman's Lex to join a council of Luthors orbiting Earth-99. Including among the crowd clear visual allusions to Earth-2's Alexi, Byrne's Luthor, Silver and Bronze Age Lex's, Lex in his power armor, a Luthor in the golden Alex Luthor armor but clearly still Lex, good 'ol 'Lex Luthor II', and a few who might be Rosenbaum, they plan to take advantage of the Crisis to conqueror their respective worlds and kill the Supermen of the Multiverse. While he previously had the same idea, Cryer's Lex is the only one willing to acknowledge that they've reached the point of simply having to work with Superman and the other heroes (even if he asserts they need to work for him rather than with him) and marches out of the council. Knowing they'll set out to kill him in retaliation - since it's what he'd do to any of them - he goes to Earth 38's Fortress of Solitude and meets Hoechlin's Superman (who oddly has the yellow S-shield on his cape in here) to demand his protection, only for Power Armor Luthor to snatch him away and leave behind a killer robot for Superman to deal with. Clark trashes it quickly - lambasting himself for having wasted a moment returning to the Fortress in the middle of the Crisis in the first place, but it was his first time back on Earth in a year and he wanted to grab a Kryptonian rattle for Jonathan - but just as it occurs to him he'll need help if he's up against an entire cabal of Luthors, the issue closes with an equivalent league of Supermen revealing itself to him, including Kingdom Come Superman (not certain it's Routh), Superwoman, classic Earth-2 Superman, a real Wayne Boring-lookin' fella, Superman immediately after returning from death with the black suit and mullet (maybe the Superman of Earth-75 had a speedy recovery time?), Bizarro, Superman from that time he faked being a future Superman with a gigantic brain but presumably real this time, one with a funky-looking costume I don't quite recognize but looks a bit familiar, a few generic background Supermen, giant red ant head Superman, and Beppo the Super-Monkey!
    end of spoilers
    That backup story sounds like the most amazing thing ever .

  9. #309
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    As much as I like Tyler, I have to admit Routh's Superman does just seem to have a much stronger presence and physique for Superman, especially when you look at them side-by-side.

    Is it wrong that I felt she had really great chemistry with Routh's Superman?

    I felt it was more "gravitas" then "melodramatic," but to each their own .

    I feel like they need to give Routh's Superman something after what they did to him, given this is probably the last time we're ever going to see him.

    Speeches about hope are pretty Superman too .

    I think the real problem with Tyler is it still feels like they're treating him like a Supergirl supporting character. I mean, Lex has had more dialogue with Kara in this crossover then he actually has with his own Superman, and this Lex can't shut up for five minutes about how much he hates Superman.

    I wonder if they could somehow merge Hoechlin and Routh's suit into a Reborn costume.


    I love it because it actually looks comic-accurate and stands out very well. The old color just looks garish to me now.
    I think Tyler is doing fine as Superman but standing next to Routh he looks like a cosplayer. I almost feel bad for him. Not only does Routh have the perfect height and build for Kal but the amazing Kingdom Come suit really makes the CW costume look ever more cheap (those ridiculous gold cape clips aren’t helping).

    I really hope this isn’t the last we see of Routh’s Superman. He’s proven to the world that he may be the best man for the role.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    That can be said about anything and everything. This ain't about subjectivity. It's about trying to force a character into something thats falling flat on its face.
    That doesn't answer my question.

  11. #311
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    I am so grateful for the CW. I have been missing Supes for a while and with things being what they are with the DCEU the CW has really been nailing it with their shows. I hope the films one day get their act together. In the meantime CW is giving me everything I need except of course WW

  12. #312
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That doesn't answer my question.
    Your question regarding someone not reading comics? I wasn't answering that. How does it matter. Should these 'experiments' that fall on their face continue or should they allow superman to be super?a Superman is competent and has agency. Hence, the name. He shouldn't be known for moping around, getting ass kicked or losing races, run to ma and pa all the time.it doesn't attract anyone. It just make the character look bad, not complex. There is a difference between the two.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 12-15-2019 at 11:38 PM.

  13. #313
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Sounds like Routh has no plans to play Superman again. Oh well. At least he went out with a great last appearance and left a lot of fans wanting more.

    https://www.newsarama.com/48273-bran...te-earths.html

  14. #314
    Fantastic Member Last Son's Avatar
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    I don't understand why they'd bring him back as Superman and then have him get vaporized by the Book of Destiny before he really gets to do anything. He fought Hoechlin's Superman, attempts some off-screen rescues, and that's it? The paragons are all a CW regulars-only party? Sorry, but that's just a flat out bait-and-switch to me. I don't care if these guys are the regular/recurring characters of the CW-verse, I don't buy all this rewriting things to make whoever has their own shows the main heroes of their DC multiverse at the expense of DC's actual heavy hitters.

    Last of all, if they want Hoechlin's Superman to be worth a damn, how about actually making him a paragon? He's getting his own show supposedly, why wouldn't they want to play him up now that he isn't just a Supergirl supporting character?

  15. #315
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I do feel like they could've ended up doing a lot more with Routh's Superman then they did, if that was really it for him.

    I almost feel bad that he's trying to curb his expectations by assuming this is his last go-around when I feel like audiences would love to see more of his Superman (even with the Planet staff dead, but I feel like they could work around that).
    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son View Post
    Last of all, if they want Hoechlin's Superman to be worth a damn, how about actually making him a paragon? He's getting his own show supposedly, why wouldn't they want to play him up now that he isn't just a Supergirl supporting character?
    I don't want to harp on another "Kara vs. Kal" argument in terms of their treatment on the CW, but it probably doesn't help Hoechlin's stature that an AU version of him and Kara were Paragons while he wasn't. So he really feels like a tertiary Superman.

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