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  1. #511
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    As for your Kara-Kal intelligence comparison, I can tentatively buy into that. Kara was raised in a Kryptonian city where the knowledge of sciences was light years ahead of what Clark learned in high school in the middle of Kansas. Plus Clark isn’t a STEM kind of guy in my eyes. He chose journalism as his profession. He’s more interested in the humanities, he’d rather be reading books or writing his own than studying engineering imo. That’s not to say he’s unintelligent, he’s got the El family genius to the point he can build Superman Robots or Cosmic Anvils or whatever else he needs, but he’s moreso a liberal arts guy at heart. His Fortress science projects are his side projects like when your dad is out tinkering with the car, not his main passion in life.
    The only time I've seen Kara's Kryptonian intellect come up is when she's put in high school and is obviously way above everyone else academically. Although I think Orlando's the only one who did anything with it.

  2. #512
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    If you think Superman is a natural athlete than your repeated bashing of Tyler Hoechlin is even more hypocritical and bizarre because Tyler Hoechlin, more than any other Superman actor since Dean Cain, is probably the best athlete who has been cast. LOL

    Hoechlin was almost a professional baseball player. He played at the college level and only didn’t go pro because he had too many injuries at that point and had started having a lot of success as an actor.

    Tyler can split a baseball in half in one take with a freaking ax—-something he did with no stunt double on the set of Everybody Wants Some to the shock of the cast and crew.

    Tyler is a trained gymnast who can do a freaking backflip at 30+ years old with no mat and no assistance.

    So, like, stop pretending that you want Clark to be an athlete and then pretending that doesn’t apply to Tyler because Tyler is in incredible shape and is likely a better ::natural:: athlete than someone even like Henry Cavill who is ::large:: (thanks to the assistance of some ahem...enhancements) but who, admittedly, was not a natural athlete growing up like Tyler was.

    You clearly don’t want real athleticism because Hoechlin has that in spades. You want superficial strong man strength which, frankly, is so weird to me because Clark Kent, to me, makes just as much sense as someone like Tyler who is such an easy and natural athlete as he does a huge guy like Cavill.

    But don’t go on and on about how Superman is an athlete in one breath and then pretend with the next that that doesn’t apply to Tyler because that’s laughably untrue.
    Well, yeah! Just not a human one. A superhuman one. If powersource is just his physiology like back in the day. He wouldn't compete with normal humans. Because there wouldn't be much point.(not that, he is greater than people.he is just better at it). Its dc clark can have loads of competition. Even if it weren't, there is tons stuff we can make up.For me, superman is a statement on talent. "talent should be appreciated, not scorned". With Superman it is, most of the time. He is gifted and has affinities.

    I haven't bashed anything. When did i bash anything? I have no malice. This was general post against this notion that action for superman should be seen as secondary or trivial .i firmly believe, Superman fans need to get of that train.Even, clark kent fake perona is based on action. Different kind of action, comedic action . But, action nonetheless.if tyler can do those. That's great. Especially, gymnast bit. Superman being agile is something that isn't well presented. Especially, in outside media.But, i do have problems with his looks, costume.. Etc. It affects the presentation. And ofcourse,how he is booked in the show.for a guy who is the freaking superman and getting a show. His booking isn't great. His kids was pushed more than him in that crossover. That kind of nonsense is bad.Presentation and booking needs to change. Its legitimate complaint. Addressing it will only improve the content. As said, sonic the hedgehog. It can be changed with just attention to detail. That's it.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-01-2020 at 07:31 PM.

  3. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Look, it isn't a style. Superman can't be devoid of action like superheroes generally aren't . There would be nothing left. So, those terms are used for relative ease in discussion.Statistics in a fight are for attracting the focus of audiences with ease where the storyteller wants.The things you mentioned are still fights. The writers just use a different way to catch audience attention through action. That's it. There would still be rules created/established by the author. Anything can be a fight. Even a basketball match. Audiences need established structures for making sense of the story.

    Yeah! I don't like clark being like that. For me,superman is a person who put ideals above anything else. That's a flaw and a strength. That's also dangerous. Clark if it's a test of strength. Should treat it like it is. Regardless of the status of the opponent outside. Clark is a free and pure being. I don't want him written like that. But, outside the challenge. Clark will just do what's right. I don't want clark to have prejudices. He treats even the criminals with same courtesy as everyone, with exceptions. He isn't on a war against x. But, on a path of selfsearching. I don't want clark to believe in labels.

    Superman is an athlete. He is at his core a strongman. This notion is false. You are fundamentally saying the only identity that matters to clark is his reporter identity. Well, its not. Action created superman. Not romance, drama... Etc. Making superman bland in that regards takes a huge portion of the audience away. Superman fights for ideals. Those ideals include self improvement. He is the guy that breaks limits and chains.

    story mechanisms used refute the claim that is how supergirl and superman competitions where handled. Clark was used to put up supergirl. That wouldn't matter if other looks strong in the process. Here, it doesn't. The opposite of what you say. It is entirely setting a hierarchy. I don't care for clark "eastern martial arts knowledge". He is a gladiator . He doesn't need those. His philosophy is structured different.He learns while doing the job.
    Look folks, it's fairly obvious the Supergirl writers purposely nerf Superman to not have him overshadow Supergirl on her on show. The problem is that they badly disrespect the character Superman in the process. They don't have to knock down Superman as to have him not overshadow Supergirl, wholly unnecessary.

  4. #514
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    You know, when you talk about being a ďjobberĒ, I feel like you want wrestling style stories out of Superman and I think itís a waste to use that style on this character or to focus on relative power levels. I ALSO am not crazy about the Supergirl writers focusing on relative power levels.

    In my preferred take, there is no benchmarking and fights are plot dependent, not statistics dependent. No fight is going to come down to reach or punches. Jimmy Olsen can take Darkseid without some crazy suit of armor. Fights come down to who pulls a lever or a dirty trick.

    Iíve often said one of my pitches was a one shot Batman story where he finds out Shiva is in town. Sheís challenged him. People are placing bets. Gordon is concerned. We see Bruce training. And he meets Shiva in an alley and she gets a few good punches in. Bruce gets a few good kicks in. She backflips away from him and looks down to see a GPS device stuck on her and... the Batmobile hits her, homing in on the tracker. Batman says, ďI donít know who the better martial artist is. I donít care. Iím not here to compete or spar. I lock up criminals. And I will never fight on anyone elseís terms but my own.Ē

    Thatís fundamentally my view of pretty much everyone aside from Wonder Woman and maybe a few others. These people arenít athletes and they arenít interested in square fights or quantified power levels. They fight for a purpose, not to spar.

    Superman has every reason to think Supergirl can beat him or do things he wouldnít do. And vice versa. Supergirlís edge is that I figure a Kryptonian high school education is like 12 PhDs in fields that donít even exist yet. Meanwhile, Superman knows things as a farmer and a journalist and is no slouch mechanically or scientifically. But I figure Kara even if she was in the arts guild and is more into painting, drawing, and guitars knows things no human scientist knows and is probably a better actress than Clark is, meaning she can bluff him. Meanwhile he knows Judo and Karate and Torquasm Vo and Torquasm Rao.

    Itís unpredictable.
    I'd like to agree with you but there is a point where something has no drama. For instance, a fight where the Flash keeps ignoring his speed doesn't feel dramatic. It feels stupid. I had no problem with Supergirl beating Superman although I kind of wish they had done it in a way that was more believable such as her being faster and more skilled. Instead, it's a John L. Sullivan fight of two people just trading all-out roundhouse punches until one drops. There was no trickery involved. But that's just generally stock CW bad fight choreography.

    I think those of us who are superhero fans get used to just accepting things that often make no sense even within the context of the story. I remember watching one animated Batman episode where Darkseid was whipping up hurricane force winds and Batman was holding onto a rope to prevent himself from being blown away. My housemate, who is not particularly a superhero fan walks in, laughs and says, "I love how Batman is supposedly a human without super powers but he's holding onto something with his hands and resisting being blown away by a wind that is uprooting buildings". Then he just walked away.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  5. #515
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I'd like to agree with you but there is a point where something has no drama. For instance, a fight where the Flash keeps ignoring his speed doesn't feel dramatic. It feels stupid. I had no problem with Supergirl beating Superman although I kind of wish they had done it in a way that was more believable such as her being faster and more skilled. Instead, it's a John L. Sullivan fight of two people just trading all-out roundhouse punches until one drops. There was no trickery involved. But that's just generally stock CW bad fight choreography.

    I think those of us who are superhero fans get used to just accepting things that often make no sense even within the context of the story. I remember watching one animated Batman episode where Darkseid was whipping up hurricane force winds and Batman was holding onto a rope to prevent himself from being blown away. My housemate, who is not particularly a superhero fan walks in, laughs and says, "I love how Batman is supposedly a human without super powers but he's holding onto something with his hands and resisting being blown away by a wind that is uprooting buildings". Then he just walked away.
    See, being human in action fics can be different from human in real world. The problem is inconsistency in that. DC treats its human in action fantasy kind of context, when he is dealing with supernatural. When realism comes to play. Batman becomes pure human like us. It's like one piece or any other shonen. Humans have the potential to slice of a mountains, punch a man to moon with a training like 100 pushups, 100 situps, 100 squats,10 miles running every single day. That's were fantasy kick in. Realism takes back stage.
    Either batman should be treated with realism or fantastic treatment. Writer need to choose what kind batman they want. It is an either or situation.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-01-2020 at 10:18 PM.

  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    The only time I've seen Kara's Kryptonian intellect come up is when she's put in high school and is obviously way above everyone else academically. Although I think Orlando's the only one who did anything with it.
    Iíve definitely seen people point out Karaís intellect in the Silver-Age stories which gets muted out because of low level gender bias from writers and the generally much more subtle-to-nonexistent approach to characterization.

    That said, Benoistís Kara is a nerd and the fun chemistry she has with Grant Gustin is similar to Grant Gustinís chemistry opposite any nerdy CW character (in particular Felicity and Ray).

    And the Brainiac 5 chemistry in the comics always hinged on her nerdiness. This is part of their chemistry, implicitly, when you set aside goofy stuff like Brainy having an Oedipal complex for blonde women. He is ANNOYED by less intelligent people and he rarely if ever talks down to her. He definitely seems to regard her as someone he doesnít have to dumb things down for and frequently trusts her to respond to complex plans without a primer.

  7. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by objectivewatcher2013 View Post
    Look folks, it's fairly obvious the Supergirl writers purposely nerf Superman to not have him overshadow Supergirl on her on show. The problem is that they badly disrespect the character Superman in the process. They don't have to knock down Superman as to have him not overshadow Supergirl, wholly unnecessary.
    My big problem is HOW they knock down Superman. I have no problem with the idea that Kara is more scientific or hopeful or that females process solar radiation differently. My problem is when they suggest she is wiser or more moral. I don’t mind Superman playing second fiddle on someone else’s show. I do think they’ve been sloppy and imprecise with how they foregrounded Kara.

  8. #518
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by objectivewatcher2013 View Post
    Look folks, it's fairly obvious the Supergirl writers purposely nerf Superman to not have him overshadow Supergirl on her on show. The problem is that they badly disrespect the character Superman in the process. They don't have to knock down Superman as to have him not overshadow Supergirl, wholly unnecessary.
    Exactly, and it's not even necessary. Supergirl should be able to shine on her own without putting Clark down like that. But I guess the CW writers just don't know a better way to do it. It really speaks of their insecurity about the qualities of the Supergirl character and her importance in the Superverse.

    I just find comfort in the fact that No matter how hard DC, the CW and even WB have tried to make Kara more relevant than Clark, people and fans in general know who the real ICON is, and that is the original superhero Superman. Keep trying CW, and keep failing.


    Supposedly, and I'm guessing you're aware, he was the last man cut before the producers settled on Dean Cain.
    nope, I didn't.

    I feel so cheated.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 02-05-2020 at 11:51 AM.

  9. #519
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    After his initial appearance, the writing quickly turned and it has blatantly put down Clark for Kara and yet i still hear SG fans complain about Kara needing a lot of help weekly and so i ask why even ruin Superman if they can't even write for Supergirl on her own? They've gained nothing but the fans' ire. To be honest, Superman's been taken down a peg or three for years in the comics to raise someone else's stature and it always rubs raw. The SG show runners aren't doing something new, it's just so horribly obvious and yet at the end of it all, Clark still stands as the true "icon" of the two, whether in the narrative or beyond.

    Edit: I'm not expecting quality with the CW show, but i am hoping the course correct and undo all the jobbing nonsense that's stained people's expectations of the character on this particular platform.
    Last edited by rpmaluki; 02-05-2020 at 12:14 PM.

  10. #520
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    After his initial appearance, the writing quickly turned and it has blatantly put down Clark for Kara and yet i still hear SG fans complain about Kara needing a lot of help weekly and so i ask why even ruin Superman if they can't even write for Supergirl on her own? They've gained nothing but the fans' ire. To be honest, Superman's been taken down a peg or three for years in the comics to raise someone else's stature and it always rubs raw. The SG show runners aren't doing something new, it's just so horribly obvious and yet at the end of it all, Clark still stands as the true "icon" of the two, whether in the narrative or beyond.
    My son, a teenager, doesn't even take Supergirl seriously.. he thinks she's just a cheap Superman ripoff.. When I first started watching her show (our of curiosity), I asked him to join me, but he refused. He likes Wonder Woman fine.

    He also likes Superman. He really likes the animated JL show from the 00s.

  11. #521
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    wrong thread
    Last edited by Last Son of Krypton; 02-05-2020 at 12:32 PM.

  12. #522
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    A mutual on twitter met the 3 actors last December. Never thought I'd ever see Routh and Welling together like this. Tyler should have been Jimmy.


  13. #523
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    A mutual on twitter met the 3 actors last December. Never thought I'd ever see Routh and Welling together like this. Tyler should have been Jimmy.

    Maybe if he were 10 years younger. I don't think Tyler is much of a Jimmy-type.

  14. #524
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    A mutual on twitter met the 3 actors last December. Never thought I'd ever see Routh and Welling together like this. Tyler should have been Jimmy.

    That's is so cool!
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  15. #525
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    Elizabeth Tulloch posted some great support for the Supergirl 100th episode along with a super photo from the event.

    Please excuse my poor posting skills—if someone else knows how to post the photo in the thread please do so.

    Tulloch has what the kids call “BDE” for sure.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/B81oj3Op...d=3s60efc1am19

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