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  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    Great news. They are obviously confident in the premise (which isn’t surprising given Superman’s successful history on TV) and are happy with the scripts so far and just want to move forward.

    I’m sure there is going to be a lot of whining about how “oh it should have been a Kingdom Come Brandon Routh Show” but, frankly, that was and is absolutely ridiculous. I love Routh and I would have been thrilled if he was cast as Superman on Supergirl back in 2016 but he wasn’t. And, in that time, he’s become very popular to a new group of fans as Ray Palmer. He was and is a fantastic Superman but the Superman he played during his time on crisis wasn’t a ::character::—he was a cipher. He stood around and gave speeches about hope and they were lovely but....he was a cipher. There was no exploration of conflict. No real depth. I love him but the truth is that if he was truly playing Superman in any long form project he would absolutely show weakness and struggle and do all the things people like to criticize Superman for doing too. He was easy to love because he didn’t actually ::do::anything and I say that as someone who loves him. He got a raw deal in Superman Returns and I would love to see him show up as an AU Superman again but he’s had a lot of great years as Ray Palmer and it’s ok to let someone else have a turn now and a chance.

    The bottom line is that Superman and Lois is a fresh chance for WB with Superman with a premise that they already know works (sorry Lois haters but it’s the truth) but with the added twist that now they are parents so it’s fresh. They get to appeal to multiple demos at once —something the CW loves to do with their more multigenerational family shows like Black Lightening.

    They were never going to greenlight a Superman show where Lois Lane and the entire rest of his supporting cast was dead over a show where a woman is the co-star. WB is sexist as hell but even they aren’t that stupid, guys.

    Now, on to the questions? Who is playing Jon? Who is this other kid? (Damien? Chris? Another son?)

    Is this the first superhero show to co-star a man and a woman as headliners since Lois and Clark? Someone help me out here? I can’t recall?

    Tyler Hoechlin is a good Superman who could be great with writing catered to HIM and not propping up Supergirl and he deserves a better suit. Can we campaign to get him one? Elizabeth Tulloch is a cool woman and I like her a lot as Lois Lane.
    I think folks hoping for Routh to take over wanted the earths merger to have him ditch the gray hair and be Tulloch’s Superman. COIE is a chance to retcon and recast.

    I figure Flash will end up doing some of that but I also imagine a big shift will involve Superman being a long term friend of the missing Batman and therefore working as a kind of uncle figure for Kate who can give her the seal of approval and tell her some about what Bruce was like.

  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    I think folks hoping for Routh to take over wanted the earths merger to have him ditch the gray hair and be Tulloch’s Superman. COIE is a chance to retcon and recast.

    I figure Flash will end up doing some of that but I also imagine a big shift will involve Superman being a long term friend of the missing Batman and therefore working as a kind of uncle figure for Kate who can give her the seal of approval and tell her some about what Bruce was like.
    Yes, I’m aware some people wanted that and I maintain that was ridiculous and silly.

    I love Routh and I’m the first to say he got a bum deal after SR but the bottom line is he’s been employed for several years now as a completely different character and that character has his own fan base. He got a great second chance from WB and, God bless him, he took it. I love the guy. But that doesn’t mean Tyler Hoechlin should be thrown out on his butt now because that’s not right either.

    It’s no surprise people responded more to Routh during the crisis given the writing and blocking and even the musical cues were literally ::designed:: to favor him. Tyler got the short end of the stick in more ways than one —shoved to the background even in scenes with his own wife and then people have the audacity to act like he’s “terrible” and “should be replaced” as if the narrative didn’t favor Routh completely and manipulate people into favoring him distinctly, in part, through direction, dialogue and staging choices.

    I love Routh, I always will. But I had zero desire to see Tyler thrown out or replaced. He deserves a chance—a real chance.

    Also, I’m going to be frank: I find it super suspicious that everyone was falling all over themselves raving about how “great Tulloch looked with Routh” when the reality is that he’s both older than her AND they had aged him. Yes. I get that they look like Reeve and Kidder and I’m not immune to the emotions of that either but then I remember all the sexist, ageist abuse Tulloch has gotten for being a mere 6 years older than Tyler (an age difference that no one even blinks at when the sexes are reversed) and I get real suspicious that all of a sudden everyone prefers her with the guy who is older than her. Intentional or not, sub-conscious or not....that’s a bias and it’s not a good one.

    I’m not here for that. I wish Routh the best but I’m ready for new blood to get a shot.

  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I disagree that Routh's Superman in the crossover was a cipher. I think they did a great job of presenting him as a well-established and defined character in what limited screen-time they gave him, but that's the exact issue, that he really just didn't get very much to do in the crossover past his introduction. Which I think is a bit of a failure on the writer's part.

    I think there is definitely stories to tell with Routh's Superman as much as there is with Hoechlin's.
    I love Routh and I was not unmoved by him but standing around talking about hope in platitudes is not character development.

    Routh’s Superman has a dead wife and literally everyone he knows outside of other costumed heroes are dead. It was arguably a really crappy thing to do to both Kidder’s Lois Lane and his Jimmy and Perry etc but that’s what they did. If they wanted to build a show around him maybe they shouldn’t have killed off every single character in Superman lore that people care about.

    I’m sorry that some of us would prefer a show where Lois Lane is alive and a co star to a show where she’s dead.

  4. #379
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    I just see it as fan entitlement. "I like this guy better so he should get to take over the role". This is exactly the kind of thing people talk about when they use the term "toxic fandom". Routh's Superman was created to serve a specific purpose. He did. They get to make him the Donner Superman because they know he's not going to stick around. They picked Hoechlin to be the Arrow-verse's Superman. If we have a problem with that, then we need to ask them to write him better. This "let's throw everything out that we're doing just because some fans like him better" thing needs to stop. They went to a lot of trouble to establish Hoechlin as their Superman.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  5. #380
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    They were never going to greenlight a Superman show where Lois Lane and the entire rest of his supporting cast was dead over a show where a woman is the co-star.
    Exactly true lol. It would have been a dead end. Also his Superman is so much mixed with so many versions, that was never going to work for a full blown show. But as an Easter Egg, which he is, its served its good purpose.

    Im sure there is going to be a lot of whining about how oh it should have been a Kingdom Come Brandon Routh Show but, frankly, that was and is absolutely ridiculous. I love Routh and I would have been thrilled if he was cast as Superman on Supergirl back in 2016 but he wasnt. And, in that time, hes become very popular to a new group of fans as Ray Palmer.
    Yeah, I would love to see Routh brought back as Ray Palmer, he could even guest star in this new Superman show as Ray/Atom. Just because Legends of Tomorrow pushed him out doesnt have to mean the end of Ray, they are other 6 shows now in the same superhero universe he can join. His definitive character in this universe is Ray Palmer. Trying to create a new show with him as another superhero was never going to happen.
    Last edited by HunterX; 01-14-2020 at 06:28 PM.

  6. #381
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    I love Routh and I was not unmoved by him but standing around talking about hope in platitudes is not character development.
    It wasn't necessary for character development, it was more a character expressing themselves, which think is valid.
    Routh’s Superman has a dead wife and literally everyone he knows outside of other costumed heroes are dead. It was arguably a really crappy thing to do to both Kidder’s Lois Lane and his Jimmy and Perry etc but that’s what they did. If they wanted to build a show around him maybe they shouldn’t have killed off every single character in Superman lore that people care about.
    I still don't think that utterly prevents them from telling a strong story with Routh's Superman, even if it ends up just being Kingdom Come.

    I’m sorry that some of us would prefer a show where Lois Lane is alive and a co star to a show where she’s dead.
    That's totally fair that you want more Lois, I do too, I just don't think the lack of her as a physical presence (because you can tell how much she emotionally still impacts him) detracts from Routh's Superman.
    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I just see it as fan entitlement. "I like this guy better so he should get to take over the role". This is exactly the kind of thing people talk about when they use the term "toxic fandom". Routh's Superman was created to serve a specific purpose. He did. They get to make him the Donner Superman because they know he's not going to stick around. They picked Hoechlin to be the Arrow-verse's Superman. If we have a problem with that, then we need to ask them to write him better. This "let's throw everything out that we're doing just because some fans like him better" thing needs to stop. They went to a lot of trouble to establish Hoechlin as their Superman.
    I don't think it's fan entitelement to like the presentation and portrayal of Routh's Superman and want to see more of him, even if that isn't what the writers intended.

    I like Hoechlin but I will also freely admit that I felt Routh just came off much stronger in terms of portraying Superman.

  7. #382

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    Okay so maybe not the cleanest way to end crisis, (seriously, where’s Reverse Flash and Earth 2 Laurel? A shrink ray saved the day?).
    -I still think Lex will end up the President
    -Justice League! I guess? Are they going to call themselves that?
    -Oliver’s totally not dead
    - don’t know who Clark and Lois’s second son is, Chris? But it’s probably not Jason. Routh’s Superman is fine, smiling, flying into the camera as usual.
    -merged earth! Argo’s still around! But like I kept saying, the multiverse is still alive as ever.
    - DCEU is canon to the Arrowverse!!!!! Okay, hands down the most surprising cameo, props to Ezra Miller
    Overall a little anti-climatic, but still pretty epic. I’ll give it a 8/10
    Last edited by OpaqueGiraffe17; 01-14-2020 at 08:19 PM.

  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I just see it as fan entitlement. "I like this guy better so he should get to take over the role". This is exactly the kind of thing people talk about when they use the term "toxic fandom". Routh's Superman was created to serve a specific purpose. He did. They get to make him the Donner Superman because they know he's not going to stick around. They picked Hoechlin to be the Arrow-verse's Superman. If we have a problem with that, then we need to ask them to write him better. This "let's throw everything out that we're doing just because some fans like him better" thing needs to stop. They went to a lot of trouble to establish Hoechlin as their Superman.
    Just WANTING THINGS by itself is NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES entitlement.

    Damn. Wait for people to throw a tantrum before you start insulting them.

    Id have liked more Routh than we got. Especially because they built him up so much in the first three parts.

    I think it would have been better to have him stick around because he embodies Superman to me more than anybody.

    But Im excited for Hoechlin and eager to watch the new show too.

  9. #384
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    Okay so maybe not the cleanest way to end crisis, (seriously, where’s Reverse Flash and Earth 2 Laurel? A shrink ray saved the day?).
    -I still think Lex will end up the President
    -Justice League! I guess? Are they going to call themselves that?
    -Oliver’s totally not dead
    - don’t know who Clark and Lois’s second son is, Chris? But it’s probably not Jason. Routh’s Superman is fine, smiling, flying into the camera as usual.
    -merged earth! Argo’s still around! But like I kept saying, the multiverse is still alive as ever.
    - DCEU is canon to the Arrowverse!!!!! Okay, hands down the most surprising cameo, props to Ezra Miller
    Overall a little anti-climatic, but still pretty epic. I’ll give it a 7.5/10
    I jumped up out of my chair and yelled "holy shit! You bastards did it!" When I saw Ezra. Hands down probably the best cameo of the cross over.

    Yeah I agree. A bit anticlimactic but it ultimately hit most of the right notes. I have to admit I smiled seeing the CW version of the JLA together for the first time.



    Oh and so glad Brandon's Supes is still alive and well in the multiverse. Hopefully not the last time we see him.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 01-14-2020 at 08:28 PM.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  10. #385
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    Anyway, the implication I get is that Earth-96’s timeline was rewritten to be less dark. So while I’d have liked maybe about two minutes more, Routh gets his happily ever after as far as I’m concerned.

    It was a pleasure.

  11. #386
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    Anyway, the implication I get is that Earth-96’s timeline was rewritten to be less dark. So while I’d have liked maybe about two minutes more, Routh gets his happily ever after as far as I’m concerned.

    It was a pleasure.
    I hope we get another team up of the Supermen eventually. Hell now that Ezra's popped up as Flash,let's get Tyler, Brandon and Henry together next crossover. Hopefully a Superman centric crossover now that Clark and Kara are more or less the leads (along with Barry and Kate) of the CW DC universe.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  12. #387
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    Well, if you hated Hoechlin and how he was used in this thus far, this won't change your mind; all I really hoped for given his role in this was that he'd get one good punch in against the Anti-Monitor, and that's what he got where most other characters didn't. Also just realized as I'm typing this that Hoechlin in a manner of speaking became the Atom for a moment there to go with Routh's Superman, which is a hoot. Happy with everything set up for his show and him being on the Justice League, and happy Routh got his perfect little send-off in what not only looks to be a world that's been kinder to him, but now unambiguously the best live-action Superman costume.

    Last edited by Dispenser Of Truth; 01-14-2020 at 11:18 PM.
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  13. #388

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    Well, if you hated Hoechlin and how he was used in this thus far, this won't change your mind; all I really hoped for given his role in this was that he'd get one good punch in against the Anti-Monitor, and that's what he got where most other characters didn't. Also just realized as I'm typing this that Hoechlin in a manner of speaking became the Atom for a moment there to go with Routh's Superman, which is a hoot. Happy with everything set up for his show and him being on the Justice League, and happy Routh got his perfect little send-off in what not only looks to be a world that's been kinder to him, but now unambiguously the best live-action Superman costume.

    Whoa, I didn’t notice the yellow on his emblem. Probably means his co-workers are alive again just like how a lot of characters seemed to get rewarded for their part in saving the multiverse (Lex getting power, Spartan getting his daughter back, Hoechlin Superman got the second kid he mentioned he wanted in the begining, the star city kids are apparently getting a less bleak future, etc).

  14. #389
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    I was a little underwhelmed by the conclusion, but at least the Legends episode got to be as goofy and silly as it should be by including our beloved big bad.

    Would have liked Routh's Superman to have gotten more to do, but I suppose that just wasn't in the cards. Given how this entire crossover probably had a tenth of the budget of the average Hollywood blockbuster, this certainly looked cheap and cheezy most of the time, which is appropriate given how little the CW shows have cared about that kind of thing.

    I'm enjoying the various fan-cuts out there on YouTube that have recut the crossover if it actually had a big budget and access to actors who they couldn't get.


  15. #390
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    Well, if you hated Hoechlin and how he was used in this thus far, this won't change your mind; all I really hoped for given his role in this was that he'd get one good punch in against the Anti-Monitor, and that's what he got where most other characters didn't. Also just realized as I'm typing this that Hoechlin in a manner of speaking became the Atom for a moment there to go with Routh's Superman, which is a hoot. Happy with everything set up for his show and him being on the Justice League, and happy Routh got his perfect little send-off in what not only looks to be a world that's been kinder to him, but now unambiguously the best live-action Superman costume.

    All i have to say is, i can't get enough of Routh’s superman.
    I hope the second son is adopted. If its damian and he is portrayed as in the main universe. God have mercy on clark. It will be fun to watch clark deal with that in his son. Damian-the son of superman is wierd to even say. But, i think it will be just chris.Oh, yeah! I still don't particularly care for Hoechlin’s superman.i am just excited for the kids. Hopefully, they would be something exciting.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-15-2020 at 12:55 AM.

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