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  1. #496
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Hah, all this made me think of the old Kevin Sorbo Hercules, and how one of the running jokes was when Hercules showed up, someone would look at him incredulously and ask, "You're Hercules?" And dude was 6'3" and probably 220 easily.

    Maybe that should be the joke with Hoechlin. Everyone looks at him and is disappointed that he doesn't match their idea of what Superman should look like.
    Yeah that was a running joke. Sorbo and the producers agreed that, during the twentieth century, because of movies, Hercules had become unhealthily associated with steroids and they wanted to move the character away from that and into a fit look but one that didn't scream steroids. Of course, the result was the running joke, "You're Hercules? I thought you were bigger."

    And, yes, Hoechlin could benefit from the same sort of running joke.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  2. #497
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    to be fair, this is all pretty much exactly the same thing as the inital reaction when Gustin was starting out as the Flash. People thought the guy looked too skinny, lot of comparisons to the actor from the first show. Who also arguably had a better costume.



    And I get it. It's a valid complaint. But with like Flash and Superman, I don't think it's as important for the actor to be super huge when their powers aren't from lifting weights or from Captain America steroids.
    Hell Michael Keaton was 5'9 when he was Batman, and it was fine. It's really not as much of a dealbreaker, as people are trying to make it.
    I don't think there's much of an argument. The 1990 Flash clearly had a far better costume.

    But as to the main discussion, I also don't think a Superman actor has to be massively muscular. He just needs to look like he's in good physical condition, not like he lifts weights two hours a day.

    But the person who said Hoechlin really doesn't have a screen presence was right. George Reeves was decently fit by the standards and expectations of that time and had a screen presence. So did Christopher Reeve. But, until now, every version of Superman in live action was cast with the idea that he was the main character. Hoechlin was cast specifically as a supporting character to Supergirl, not as someone who would steal the show and every scene he was in from Melissa Benoist. In terms of physique, they probably did not want someone so massively bigger and stronger that people would smirk at the idea of her beating him in a fight. In terms of personality, they wanted her to be the dominant personality in the room. Not to say a more soft-spoken Superman can't work but being soft-spoken does not mean being a weaker personality.
    Last edited by Powerboy; 01-31-2020 at 10:29 AM.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  3. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I don't think there's much of an argument. The 1990 Flash clearly had a far better costume.

    But as to the main discussion, I also don't think a Superman actor has to be massively muscular. He just needs to look like he's in good physical condition, not like he lifts weights two hours a day.

    But the person who said Hoechlin really doesn't have a screen presence was right. George Reeves was decently fit by the standards and expectations of that time and had a screen presence. So did Christopher Reeve. But, until now, every version of Superman in live action was cast with the idea that he was the main character. Hoechlin was cast specifically as a supporting character to Supergirl, not as someone who would steal the show and every scene he was in from Melissa Benoist. In terms of physique, they probably did not want someone so massively bigger and stronger that people would smirk at the idea of her beating him in a fight. In terms of personality, they wanted her to be the dominant personality in the room. Not to say a more soft-spoken Superman can't work but being soft-spoken does not mean being a weaker personality.
    Yeah I think that's pretty much the long and the short of it. He was chosen with the intent of being a pillar to support someone else and thus far that's how he's come across. It's the difference between Tulloch's Lois and Hoechlin's Superman. Tulloch was cast to play Lois as we've traditionally known her and she nails it, Hoechlin was cast to play Superman in a way that wouldn't upstage Benoist.

    But hey tomorrows a new day, who knows how he'll come across in his own show.
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  4. #499
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Hey, I really would have loved Kevin Sorbo as Superman in the 90s. I like him in everything I've seen him. Very underrated, imo. And he has great presence like Superman deserves.

    For me the big problem with Hoechlin is how he has been written. He's weaker than Kara in every way.. even emotionally and that's just so lame and wrong. And all in the name of girl power.. I'm a girl and I hate it.

    Yes, he doesn't have the presence of Superman like I'm used to with Reeves, Reeve, Routh, Cavill and even Welling to a lesser extent. But he can work for the CW. Just don't put him next to those guys because he looks really bad, like a cosplayer, IMO. But Hoechlin is a decent actor when they let him show it..

    Also, if Superman jobbing for Batman is bad, then the same thing happens when he's constantly jobbing for Supergirl.. unless you think the Supergirl CW show doesn't count or doesn't matter at all.. It does Superman no favors when the CW always makes sure to remind us how Kara is so much better and stronger, and it's awful when even Superman himself tells her the world doesn't need him when she is around. That's just terrible writing and as a big Superman fan all my life, it's unacceptable and very upsetting. I used to like the Supergirl show, but when they started to humiliate Superman like that, I stopped watching.

  5. #500
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Hey, I really would have loved Kevin Sorbo as Superman in the 90s.
    Supposedly, and I'm guessing you're aware, he was the last man cut before the producers settled on Dean Cain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Yeah that was a running joke. Sorbo and the producers agreed that, during the twentieth century, because of movies, Hercules had become unhealthily associated with steroids and they wanted to move the character away from that and into a fit look but one that didn't scream steroids. Of course, the result was the running joke, "You're Hercules? I thought you were bigger."

    And, yes, Hoechlin could benefit from the same sort of running joke.
    that's kinda funny when you consider the Rock ended up playing him in 2014.

  7. #502
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    Yeah I think that's pretty much the long and the short of it. He was chosen with the intent of being a pillar to support someone else and thus far that's how he's come across. It's the difference between Tulloch's Lois and Hoechlin's Superman. Tulloch was cast to play Lois as we've traditionally known her and she nails it, Hoechlin was cast to play Superman in a way that wouldn't upstage Benoist.

    But hey tomorrows a new day, who knows how he'll come across in his own show.
    Yes I hold out hope that Hoechlin is simply playing Superman as the supporting character he is supposed to be and has the ability to play him with subtle differences as the lead character.

    I really look forward to more of Tulloch's Lois because- and I do not mean this as an insult- all previous Lois's have been women who would be the center of attention in a room. But, at least to me, Tulloch doesn't come across as someone that every male gaze in the room would be on her. Somehow, that just makes her even more interesting because she has presence that comes from within. Let her talk and interact for a minute and everyone's attention will be on her.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  8. #503
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Supposedly, and I'm guessing you're aware, he was the last man cut before the producers settled on Dean Cain.
    In fact, he recounts that someone from the show called and told him he had the job. Then, after he went out and celebrated by buying dinner for family and friends, the person called him back the next day and apologized but someone higher or the studio had overruled and they were going with Cain. But he also said Cain probably made a better Superman but probably could not have played Hercules so it all worked out.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  9. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Yes I hold out hope that Hoechlin is simply playing Superman as the supporting character he is supposed to be and has the ability to play him with subtle differences as the lead character.

    I really look forward to more of Tulloch's Lois because- and I do not mean this as an insult- all previous Lois's have been women who would be the center of attention in a room. But, at least to me, Tulloch doesn't come across as someone that every male gaze in the room would be on her. Somehow, that just makes her even more interesting because she has presence that comes from within. Let her talk and interact for a minute and everyone's attention will be on her.
    You know, when you talk about being a “jobber”, I feel like you want wrestling style stories out of Superman and I think it’s a waste to use that style on this character or to focus on relative power levels. I ALSO am not crazy about the Supergirl writers focusing on relative power levels.

    In my preferred take, there is no benchmarking and fights are plot dependent, not statistics dependent. No fight is going to come down to reach or punches. Jimmy Olsen can take Darkseid without some crazy suit of armor. Fights come down to who pulls a lever or a dirty trick.

    I’ve often said one of my pitches was a one shot Batman story where he finds out Shiva is in town. She’s challenged him. People are placing bets. Gordon is concerned. We see Bruce training. And he meets Shiva in an alley and she gets a few good punches in. Bruce gets a few good kicks in. She backflips away from him and looks down to see a GPS device stuck on her and... the Batmobile hits her, homing in on the tracker. Batman says, “I don’t know who the better martial artist is. I don’t care. I’m not here to compete or spar. I lock up criminals. And I will never fight on anyone else’s terms but my own.”

    That’s fundamentally my view of pretty much everyone aside from Wonder Woman and maybe a few others. These people aren’t athletes and they aren’t interested in square fights or quantified power levels. They fight for a purpose, not to spar.

    Superman has every reason to think Supergirl can beat him or do things he wouldn’t do. And vice versa. Supergirl’s edge is that I figure a Kryptonian high school education is like 12 PhDs in fields that don’t even exist yet. Meanwhile, Superman knows things as a farmer and a journalist and is no slouch mechanically or scientifically. But I figure Kara even if she was in the arts guild and is more into painting, drawing, and guitars knows things no human scientist knows and is probably a better actress than Clark is, meaning she can bluff him. Meanwhile he knows Judo and Karate and Torquasm Vo and Torquasm Rao.

    It’s unpredictable.

  10. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Yes I hold out hope that Hoechlin is simply playing Superman as the supporting character he is supposed to be and has the ability to play him with subtle differences as the lead character.

    I really look forward to more of Tulloch's Lois because- and I do not mean this as an insult- all previous Lois's have been women who would be the center of attention in a room. But, at least to me, Tulloch doesn't come across as someone that every male gaze in the room would be on her. Somehow, that just makes her even more interesting because she has presence that comes from within. Let her talk and interact for a minute and everyone's attention will be on her.
    Elizabeth Tulloch is an extremely beautiful woman so I’m not sure I get your point here. Like I think you meant well by implying that she’s brilliant and has so much charisma but it still feels like a kind of crappy thing to say. She doesn’t look like the standard “cute” 25 year old you usually see on the CW and that’s a good thing in my opinion. She is extremely striking and beautiful in a way a lot of those other girls are not.

    No offense but if men aren’t looking at her that’s their bad taste and loss. She’s married to one of the hottest men ever (David Giuntoli from Grimm and A Million Little Things) so clearly it’s not hard for her to get male attention.

  11. #506
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    You know, when you talk about being a “jobber”, I feel like you want wrestling style stories out of Superman and I think it’s a waste to use that style on this character or to focus on relative power levels. I ALSO am not crazy about the Supergirl writers focusing on relative power levels.

    In my preferred take, there is no benchmarking and fights are plot dependent, not statistics dependent. No fight is going to come down to reach or punches. Jimmy Olsen can take Darkseid without some crazy suit of armor. Fights come down to who pulls a lever or a dirty trick.

    I’ve often said one of my pitches was a one shot Batman story where he finds out Shiva is in town. She’s challenged him. People are placing bets. Gordon is concerned. We see Bruce training. And he meets Shiva in an alley and she gets a few good punches in. Bruce gets a few good kicks in. She backflips away from him and looks down to see a GPS device stuck on her and... the Batmobile hits her, homing in on the tracker. Batman says, “I don’t know who the better martial artist is. I don’t care. I’m not here to compete or spar. I lock up criminals. And I will never fight on anyone else’s terms but my own.”

    That’s fundamentally my view of pretty much everyone aside from Wonder Woman and maybe a few others. These people aren’t athletes and they aren’t interested in square fights or quantified power levels. They fight for a purpose, not to spar.

    Superman has every reason to think Supergirl can beat him or do things he wouldn’t do. And vice versa. Supergirl’s edge is that I figure a Kryptonian high school education is like 12 PhDs in fields that don’t even exist yet. Meanwhile, Superman knows things as a farmer and a journalist and is no slouch mechanically or scientifically. But I figure Kara even if she was in the arts guild and is more into painting, drawing, and guitars knows things no human scientist knows and is probably a better actress than Clark is, meaning she can bluff him. Meanwhile he knows Judo and Karate and Torquasm Vo and Torquasm Rao.

    It’s unpredictable.
    Look, it isn't a style. Superman can't be devoid of action like superheroes generally aren't . There would be nothing left. So, those terms are used for relative ease in discussion.Statistics in a fight are for attracting the focus of audiences with ease where the storyteller wants.The things you mentioned are still fights. The writers just use a different way to catch audience attention through action. That's it. There would still be rules created/established by the author. Anything can be a fight. Even a basketball match. Audiences need established structures for making sense of the story.

    Yeah! I don't like clark being like that. For me,superman is a person who put ideals above anything else. That's a flaw and a strength. That's also dangerous. Clark if it's a test of strength. Should treat it like it is. Regardless of the status of the opponent outside. Clark is a free and pure being. I don't want him written like that. But, outside the challenge. Clark will just do what's right. I don't want clark to have prejudices. He treats even the criminals with same courtesy as everyone, with exceptions. He isn't on a war against x. But, on a path of selfsearching. I don't want clark to believe in labels.

    Superman is an athlete. He is at his core a strongman. This notion is false. You are fundamentally saying the only identity that matters to clark is his reporter identity. Well, its not. Action created superman. Not romance, drama... Etc. Making superman bland in that regards takes a huge portion of the audience away. Superman fights for ideals. Those ideals include self improvement. He is the guy that breaks limits and chains.

    story mechanisms used refute the claim that is how supergirl and superman competitions where handled. Clark was used to put up supergirl. That wouldn't matter if other looks strong in the process. Here, it doesn't. The opposite of what you say. It is entirely setting a hierarchy. I don't care for clark "eastern martial arts knowledge". He is a gladiator . He doesn't need those. His philosophy is structured different.He learns while doing the job.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-01-2020 at 06:41 AM.

  12. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    You know, when you talk about being a “jobber”, I feel like you want wrestling style stories out of Superman and I think it’s a waste to use that style on this character or to focus on relative power levels. I ALSO am not crazy about the Supergirl writers focusing on relative power levels.

    In my preferred take, there is no benchmarking and fights are plot dependent, not statistics dependent. No fight is going to come down to reach or punches. Jimmy Olsen can take Darkseid without some crazy suit of armor. Fights come down to who pulls a lever or a dirty trick.

    I’ve often said one of my pitches was a one shot Batman story where he finds out Shiva is in town. She’s challenged him. People are placing bets. Gordon is concerned. We see Bruce training. And he meets Shiva in an alley and she gets a few good punches in. Bruce gets a few good kicks in. She backflips away from him and looks down to see a GPS device stuck on her and... the Batmobile hits her, homing in on the tracker. Batman says, “I don’t know who the better martial artist is. I don’t care. I’m not here to compete or spar. I lock up criminals. And I will never fight on anyone else’s terms but my own.”

    That’s fundamentally my view of pretty much everyone aside from Wonder Woman and maybe a few others. These people aren’t athletes and they aren’t interested in square fights or quantified power levels. They fight for a purpose, not to spar.

    Superman has every reason to think Supergirl can beat him or do things he wouldn’t do. And vice versa. Supergirl’s edge is that I figure a Kryptonian high school education is like 12 PhDs in fields that don’t even exist yet. Meanwhile, Superman knows things as a farmer and a journalist and is no slouch mechanically or scientifically. But I figure Kara even if she was in the arts guild and is more into painting, drawing, and guitars knows things no human scientist knows and is probably a better actress than Clark is, meaning she can bluff him. Meanwhile he knows Judo and Karate and Torquasm Vo and Torquasm Rao.

    It’s unpredictable.
    Heh, that bit sounds great!

  13. #508
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    You know, when you talk about being a ďjobberĒ, I feel like you want wrestling style stories out of Superman and I think itís a waste to use that style on this character or to focus on relative power levels. I ALSO am not crazy about the Supergirl writers focusing on relative power levels.

    In my preferred take, there is no benchmarking and fights are plot dependent, not statistics dependent. No fight is going to come down to reach or punches. Jimmy Olsen can take Darkseid without some crazy suit of armor. Fights come down to who pulls a lever or a dirty trick.

    Iíve often said one of my pitches was a one shot Batman story where he finds out Shiva is in town. Sheís challenged him. People are placing bets. Gordon is concerned. We see Bruce training. And he meets Shiva in an alley and she gets a few good punches in. Bruce gets a few good kicks in. She backflips away from him and looks down to see a GPS device stuck on her and... the Batmobile hits her, homing in on the tracker. Batman says, ďI donít know who the better martial artist is. I donít care. Iím not here to compete or spar. I lock up criminals. And I will never fight on anyone elseís terms but my own.Ē

    Thatís fundamentally my view of pretty much everyone aside from Wonder Woman and maybe a few others. These people arenít athletes and they arenít interested in square fights or quantified power levels. They fight for a purpose, not to spar.

    Superman has every reason to think Supergirl can beat him or do things he wouldnít do. And vice versa. Supergirlís edge is that I figure a Kryptonian high school education is like 12 PhDs in fields that donít even exist yet. Meanwhile, Superman knows things as a farmer and a journalist and is no slouch mechanically or scientifically. But I figure Kara even if she was in the arts guild and is more into painting, drawing, and guitars knows things no human scientist knows and is probably a better actress than Clark is, meaning she can bluff him. Meanwhile he knows Judo and Karate and Torquasm Vo and Torquasm Rao.

    Itís unpredictable.
    Your Batman story is spot on. Bruce does not care about ďfighting fairĒ, he only cares about winning. Hell Batman is all about stacking the odds in his favor with his years ahead of everyone else tier tech, using his mastery of martial arts on criminals who canít even come close to his fighting skills wise, pouring billions into his crusade, and his use of fear and intimidation to beat criminals into submission.

    As for your Kara-Kal intelligence comparison, I can tentatively buy into that. Kara was raised in a Kryptonian city where the knowledge of sciences was light years ahead of what Clark learned in high school in the middle of Kansas. Plus Clark isnít a STEM kind of guy in my eyes. He chose journalism as his profession. Heís more interested in the humanities, heíd rather be reading books or writing his own than studying engineering imo. Thatís not to say heís unintelligent, heís got the El family genius to the point he can build Superman Robots or Cosmic Anvils or whatever else he needs, but heís moreso a liberal arts guy at heart. His Fortress science projects are his side projects like when your dad is out tinkering with the car, not his main passion in life.

    But I do firmly believe Clark is both stronger and a better fighter than Kara for a simple reason: Heís been on Earth since he was a baby and heís got years of experience in real life or death fights that Kara simply doesnít have. She may have been trained in Kryptonian martial arts but Clark has probably picked up some of those techniques from the Fortress himself, and heíll always be an accomplished boxer in my eyes whatever the canon says lol.

    All that said, I donít really mind if Kara shows him up in her own show. Itís her show, sheís the main character, Iíd get mad if Batman showed up in Superman & Lois and showed up Supes, so Iím going to keep that viewpoint when Clark shows up in Supergirl. I also think theyíll treat him different as a main character than they did as a side one.

  14. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Look, it isn't a style. Superman can't be devoid of action like superheroes generally aren't . There would be nothing left. So, those terms are used for relative ease in discussion.Statistics in a fight are for attracting the focus of audiences with ease where the storyteller wants.The things you mentioned are still fights. The writers just use a different way to catch audience attention through action. That's it. There would still be rules created/established by the author. Anything can be a fight. Even a basketball match. Audiences need established structures for making sense of the story.

    Yeah! I don't like clark being like that. For me,superman is a person who put ideals above anything else. That's a flaw and a strength. That's also dangerous. Clark if it's a test of strength. Should treat it like it is. Regardless of the status of the opponent outside. Clark is a free and pure being. I don't want him written like that. But, outside the challenge. Clark will just do what's right. I don't want clark to have prejudices. He treats even the criminals with same courtesy as everyone, with exceptions. He isn't on a war against x. But, on a path of selfsearching. I don't want clark to believe in labels.

    Superman is an athlete. He is at his core a strongman. This notion is false. You are fundamentally saying the only identity that matters to clark is his reporter identity. Well, its not. Action created superman. Not romance, drama... Etc. Making superman bland in that regards takes a huge portion of the audience away. Superman fights for ideals. Those ideals include self improvement. He is the guy that breaks limits and chains.

    story mechanisms used refute the claim that is how supergirl and superman competitions where handled. Clark was used to put up supergirl. That wouldn't matter if other looks strong in the process. Here, it doesn't. The opposite of what you say. It is entirely setting a hierarchy. I don't care for clark "eastern martial arts knowledge". He is a gladiator . He doesn't need those. His philosophy is structured different.He learns while doing the job.
    If you think Superman is a natural athlete than your repeated bashing of Tyler Hoechlin is even more hypocritical and bizarre because Tyler Hoechlin, more than any other Superman actor since Dean Cain, is probably the best athlete who has been cast. LOL

    Hoechlin was almost a professional baseball player. He played at the college level and only didn’t go pro because he had too many injuries at that point and had started having a lot of success as an actor.

    Tyler can split a baseball in half in one take with a freaking ax—-something he did with no stunt double on the set of Everybody Wants Some to the shock of the cast and crew.

    Tyler is a trained gymnast who can do a freaking backflip at 30+ years old with no mat and no assistance.

    So, like, stop pretending that you want Clark to be an athlete and then pretending that doesn’t apply to Tyler because Tyler is in incredible shape and is likely a better ::natural:: athlete than someone even like Henry Cavill who is ::large:: (thanks to the assistance of some ahem...enhancements) but who, admittedly, was not a natural athlete growing up like Tyler was.

    You clearly don’t want real athleticism because Hoechlin has that in spades. You want superficial strong man strength which, frankly, is so weird to me because Clark Kent, to me, makes just as much sense as someone like Tyler who is such an easy and natural athlete as he does a huge guy like Cavill.

    But don’t go on and on about how Superman is an athlete in one breath and then pretend with the next that that doesn’t apply to Tyler because that’s laughably untrue.

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    You can argue that the Supergirl writers have not given Tyler the dialogue or screen time yet to capitalize on his natural and easy athleticism (which is different from just taking supplements to look big) but we are not going to sit here and pretend that Tyler isn’t a natural athlete because that’s laughable. He did this in one take. Twice. How many of you could do that? That’s what I thought.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zGNiC5L3RjQ

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