Thomas Wayne: kindly doctor or abusive billionaire?

[Restingvoice]

Good doctor old money makes sense considering his lineage. Batman Begins has him working as a doctor (I assume because that's what he likes) while other people take care of the company. It's an old company, so there are people hired by his father and not himself, just like Bruce, and there may be some dissent here in there, but a Wayne is still the owner. I like that.

[Tzigone]

Good doctor old money makes sense considering his lineage. Batman Begins has him working as a doctor (I assume because that's what he likes) while other people take care of the company. It's an old company, so there are people hired by his father and not himself, just like Bruce, and there may be some dissent here in there, but a Wayne is still the owner. I like that.

Me too. Who does the charity work, do you think? And does Wayne Foundation pre-date Bruce or did he create it (even if there was some charitable work before)?

One thing we rarely deal with is that at Bruce's age when Thomas died, it's slightly surprising Thomas' parents weren't still alive. Matha's showed up later, of course, but, of course, were thorns instead of roses.

[Restingvoice]

Me too. Who does the charity work, do you think? And does Wayne Foundation pre-date Bruce or did he create it (even if there was some charitable work before)?

One thing we rarely deal with is that at Bruce's age when Thomas died, it's slightly surprising Thomas' parents weren't still alive. Matha's showed up later, of course, but, of course, were thorns instead of roses.

In comics, Martha tends to run the charity part, maybe because she didn't have a clear job at first. The Wayne Foundation charity groups like orphanage and dog sanctuary tend to be named after Martha and she's depicted as doing charitable works in flashbacks, taking on corrupt mayor of Gotham while she's at it and ended up becoming The Court of Owl's target because of it.

I don't know when Wayne Foundation started but I always assume it's at least started during Martha's era, at least in the modern take.

[Aahz]

When is the first time we got a really good look at it? And the first outside view?

If you mean the the classic Golden Age version, I think it was shown from the outside quite often, and he bought it pretty early I think even before Robin came into the picture.
The Complte Layout with Batcave was shown vor the first time in Batman #12.

The "Ancestral Home" thing was iirc mentioned the first time during the penthouse era (probably in the 70s).

Originally they didn't really had a family Business, I think it was said that the Wayne Foundation was basically created by Lucius Fox who bundelt some how Bruce's various assets. And after that they somehow also founded Wayne Enterprises.

[Gurz]

People are evil and rich people are the worst... But it doesn't matter, rich or poor Fathers only exists to tourcher their kids.

[Tzigone]

Originally they didn't really had a family Business, I think it was said that the Wayne Foundation was basically created by Lucius Fox who bundelt some how Bruce's various assets. And after that they somehow also founded Wayne Enterprises.

Originally, first it was the Alfred Foundation, so named after Alfred died, and was a charity. Renamed the Wayne Foundation when he returned to life. Then Bruce hired Lucius to work there (at that point Wayne Foundation seemed to be used interchangeably with Wayne Enterprises?). This was in the era where Bruce actually worked there, day to day, and Lucius was second-in command, as it were. Anyone know when he was retconned back to being around so much longer? I remember Tam being named after Thomas (Lucius' idol), but that's 40 years later - no idea when the change occurred.

And has anyone ever figured out exactly how this company was supposed to be owned? It very much seems to be publicly traded, but then he'd have to submit records for scrutiny, and I don't know how any Bat/JL expenditures would pass muster. They could come from non-company funds, but sometimes don't seem to.

[Restingvoice]

Did it seem like an "old money estate" in the 1940s or just like a 30 year-old house of a rich family? Just trying to figure what the perception of it was back then. Certainly it's been generations old for a long time now. The wiki tells me in 'Tec 205 (March 1954), Bruce is said to have bought the house as an adult. I know that it was his "ancestral home" in the early 1980s when Bruce moves back there. When is the first time we got a really good look at it? And the first outside view?

Now, I'm also thinking of a time when Jim Gordon had a screening room in his home.

From Detective Comics (Vol. 1) #205 (1954).jpg

It doesn't look that old but I don't know architecture, like if it's from a previous era or not...

The barn is old though

[SiegePerilous02]

Well, Bruce wasn't always insane (nor really, is he know, despite being mentally unhealthy in some respects). And different people react to trauma in different ways. And I prefer the more mentally healthy version, anyway, so that works well with the good parents.

Same. Before Frank Miller ruined him, Bruce wasn't any more mentally unstable than anyone else in the DCU. Dressing up in a costume and fighting crime is just what people do there. The fact that Batman comics are even trying to pose the question of Bruce's mental instability just comes across as "Look at us! We're not just writing this as children's fantasy stories anymore. Take us seriously goddammit!" Like a kid trying to sound like an adult.

At most, I prefer Bruce to be pretty eccentric. Psychotic and abusive? Definitely not.

[Jim Kelly]

Me too. Who does the charity work, do you think? And does Wayne Foundation pre-date Bruce or did he create it (even if there was some charitable work before)?

One thing we rarely deal with is that at Bruce's age when Thomas died, it's slightly surprising Thomas' parents weren't still alive. Matha's showed up later, of course, but, of course, were thorns instead of roses.

In 1964, after the death of Alfred (no last name given), Bruce started up the "Alfred Foundation." When Alfred (the Outsider) was revived, Bruce changed the name to the "Wayne Foundation" (in honour of his parents I believe). Of course, that's old continuity and I imagine that it's all been retconned.

Also in old continuity, it was Bruce's Uncle Philip who gained guardianship after Thomas and Martha were killed.

[Gurz]

After everything i read about capitalism... i can't bring myself to believe that a man like Bruce can be ''good''.

Crime in most cases are a protest of social injustice and that injustice is between rich and poor.

Batman beats the crap out of criminals every night, the same protestors of injustice, the unfortunate people 'cause Batman is the herald of all the protested privilaged rich people. Unfortunate people who do crime to protest him and other rich people, Batman silence their desperate protests by beating the crap out of them 'cause he hates them as a rich guy. Batman would be an evil guy in real life as you can see.

[Tzigone]

Same. Before Frank Miller ruined him, Bruce wasn't any more mentally unstable than anyone else in the DCU. Dressing up in a costume and fighting crime is just what people do there.

Yep. I admit, Miller's Batman and what grew from it has been extremely popular, made DC a lot of money, and led to Batman as the biggest star of the DC universe, but I don't like it. I don't like him. I don't like the long-term misery and I don't like the way he treats the people around him.

[SiegePerilous02]

Yep. I admit, Miller's Batman and what grew from it has been extremely popular, made DC a lot of money, and led to Batman as the biggest star of the DC universe, but I don't like it. I don't like him. I don't like the long-term misery and I don't like the way he treats the people around him.

Yes for the popularity of the Batman brand, it was pretty much the objectively right thing to publish. And we may not have gotten some other beloved things (the Burton films, BTAS) without it.

But I definitely think it harmed Batman in many ways to the point where hes often unrecognizable now as the character I feel in love with as a kid*, and the other IPs DC has are being neglected.

*BTAS in the 90s, which definitely owes some inspiration from Miller, but primarily draws from the Bronze Age. Which is why I'm drawn mostly to pre-COIE Batman comics.

[Jim Kelly]

Personally, it doesn't make a lot of sense that the characters become virtuous heroes if they came from such bad people and circumstances. If Batman's parents were selfish and immoral, if Krypton was a terrible plenet that deserved to be destroyed, if Barry never had a healthy childnood, if the Amazons were wicked warrior-women who hated humanity and so on. Maybe one character somehow overcoming the doom and gloom of his origins and finding a way to be a hero despite everything pushing him in the opposite direction, but a whole line of comics about such characters--not only is it incredible, but it's too depressing to entertain me.

[Mutant God]

I always thought that the Wayans were old money, Thomas was a doctor, Martha married into money and used her status to promote charities and programs, and both of them taught Bruce that it was important to society thats why as Bruce he pretty uses most of his money on the Wayne Foundation and the rest on gadgets.

[Tzigone]

Personally, it doesn't make a lot of sense that the characters become virtuous heroes if they came from such bad people and circumstances

I wouldn't go that far. There are very good people in the world who come from very bad homes. Birth, or rearing, though influential, is not destiny. I like some heroes from villainous parents. I don't like good people retconned to bad. I'm actually not fond of the anti-heroing/heroing (or "making sympathetic") of villains, either, generally speaking. There a few exceptions, but not many. A little gray can be good. But I want good guys to be mostly good and bad guys to be mostly bad.

If Batman's parents were selfish and immoral, if Krypton was a terrible plenet that deserved to be destroyed, if Barry never had a healthy childnood, if the Amazons were wicked warrior-women who hated humanity and so on.

I particularly agree on WW. The entire point of WW was her coming from such a good society (though I have some issues with the depiction of one sex being superior to another). Krypton is a non-issue to me, since Clark never knew it (well, in the golden age and a bit of post-COIE), so it didn't have any influence on me. I don't like it retconned bad (I've made complaints on other threads on how all fictional societies are overtly inferior to modern American society), but there's no reason for it have any impact on a Clark that left the planet before his first birthday (Kara's a different story). I've always been big on the Kents being Clark's formative influence. But I like characters being good and heroic just because they can be, as Barry originally was. Or Ralph. Or so many others.

Maybe one character somehow overcoming the doom and gloom of his origins and finding a way to be a hero despite everything pushing him in the opposite direction, but a whole line of comics about such characters--not only is it incredible, but it's too depressing to entertain me.

True. I like some characters that come from that (Cass Cain, Stephanie Brown, kinda Jericho before they ruined him), but I don't like it thrust on older characters who had solid backgrounds already. And I'm sad over the lack of happy families. Again, it's not that some messed up ones can't be good - it's that all the good ones get worsened. Barry and Wally, some worsening of the Graysons and definitely Pop Haly, Hal's relationship with his brother(s), Bruce with various family members, Cassie Sandsmark and her mom really irritated me (she was a very good mom to start), even Jaime, who's family relationship was so important, was worse later than originally.