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  1. #31
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    I prefer Bruce Wayne not being a billionaire and not owning a corporation. I get that with technology being how it is, they've made Batman richer and richer to compete but I abhor it.

    Thomas Wayne being a decently wealthy surgeon and Bruce Wayne being his heir who builds his own ****, far more interesting.

  2. #32
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    The Waynes are old money. I think the Court of Owls established that the Waynes were one of five influential families in Gotham. Wayne's ancestors include one who was a type of shipping magnate and I think in a LTKD story Bruce Wayne's grandfather or great grandfather was an industrialist.

  3. #33
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    The idea of a corrupt and evil Thomas Wayne makes for an intriguing and fascinating Elseworlds-take on the character, but I don't think that is what 'mainstream' interpretations of the character should become. I know its a twist that will appeal to left-leaning anti-rich portions of the fandom. But quiet frankly, if you're a committed left-winger, the very concept of Batman (or superheroes in general, for that matter) is likely anathema to you - he is, after all, a rich white man beating up mentally-ill or underpriveleged criminals. So I don't really thin Batman's parents being rich should be a deal-breaker to left-wingers if they can look past other aspects of the character.

    That said, the idea of Thomas and Martha as politicians is an interesting one that I'd hope to see explored at some point. There are plenty of wealthy philantrophists in real-life who've gotten involved in politics. Maybe Thomas Wayne did get involved in politics at some point, and had to make some compromises to fulfill his larger goal of helping Gotham, some of which put him in a morally grey zone. In a sense, it could serve as a pre-cursor to what his son would do decades later - becoming a vigilante and using violence to save Gotham.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    But quiet frankly, if you're a committed left-winger, the very concept of Batman (or superheroes in general, for that matter) is likely anathema to you - he is, after all, a rich white man beating up mentally-ill or underpriveleged criminals. So I don't really thin Batman's parents being rich should be a deal-breaker to left-wingers if they can look past other aspects of the character.
    In the late '60s/early '70s, I assumed that Batman's values were close to my own. I wouldn't have called that left wing--that's a hockey position--but it was the humanitarian values I grew up with and that all of my favourite rock groups and folk singers supported. And it seemed like the comic book writers gave Bruce those same values.

    Bruce was primarily a philanthropist--identified as such in numerous comics. He started up the Wayne Foundation, a humanitarian organization that championed social causes, like rehabilitating outlaws--e.g. Blockbuster (Mark Desmond) and Poison Ivy. He began the V.I.P. (Victims Inc. Program) to help out victims of crimes. Bruce moved to his penthouse above the Wayne Foundation, so he could be in the heart of the city and keep an eye on Foundation affairs while also investigating corrupt fat cats that hide behind "phoney respectability" to take advantage of the innocent.

    This all started for me on the Adam West TV show, where it may have been played for laughs (as a kid, I missed all those jokes and took it seriously) but Bruce and Dick were always doing charitable works for the good of the city. Their care for the down-trodden was palpable. And in the comics, this basic decency was clear. Most of the villains weren't mentally deranged--they went to prison rather than an insane asylum. And Batman was apt to help out an "honest crook"--that's something that goes all the way back to the early days of the character.

    The Batman even takes the night off on Christmas Eve, trusting in the spirit of the season to bring Peace on Earth, Good Will to All Men.

  5. #35
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant God View Post
    I always thought that the Wayans were old money, Thomas was a doctor, Martha married into money and used her status to promote charities and programs, and both of them taught Bruce that it was important to society thats why as Bruce he pretty uses most of his money on the Wayne Foundation and the rest on gadgets.
    Canon-wise I think Martha comes from old money too.

    Pre-Flashpoint I think she was a socialite and now the Kane family were one of the founding families of Gotham and had a rivalry wit hthe Waynes.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Canon-wise I think Martha comes from old money too.

    Pre-Flashpoint I think she was a socialite and now the Kane family were one of the founding families of Gotham and had a rivalry wit hthe Waynes.
    Did Martha really not her maiden name until 2002 in Batman Family #1? I started reading comics after (but with older stories)? Do we know anything about her pre-COIE family? Alas, mom's family was often forgotten in favor of dad's (Wayne name/family being so much more important). Actually, Martha was often a distant second to Thomas in importance, too. I'd blame it on being created in day when women were "unimportant" housewives, but dads still tend to dominate in importance in shaping heroes now.

    I do like the idea of Martha as a bit of a socialite, and as a good person. It irks me how it seems like (in fanfic, at least) no one can enjoy galas and other parties and still be good people.

    Edit: No, Martha's name was given in 1997 in Secret Files and Origins. Where she was the "sole heir" to Kane Chemicals.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 11-23-2019 at 01:35 PM.

  7. #37
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    Kathy Kane/Batwoman was active in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s--and had an off-and-on romance with Batman/Bruce Wayne--so any blood connection to Martha Wayne seems unlikely. That woud have been some weird Game of Thrones relationship if it had existed.

    Amazing how often writers want to shoe-horn in some version of "Kane" into the Batman comics--not only Kane, but Cain and Kean. Paying tribute to a creator is all well and good, but this is overboard.

    References to Bill Finger are a little more subtle--Finger Alley, the Black Glove and also William Hand (aka Black Hand, the Green Lantern villain, Bill Finger having been the co-creator of the original Green Lantern).

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Kathy Kane/Batwoman was active in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s--and had an off-and-on romance with Batman/Bruce Wayne--so any blood connection to Martha Wayne seems unlikely. That woud have been some weird Game of Thrones relationship if it had existed.

    Amazing how often writers want to shoe-horn in some version of "Kane" into the Batman comics--not only Kane, but Cain and Kean. Paying tribute to a creator is all well and good, but this is overboard.

    References to Bill Finger are a little more subtle--Finger Alley, the Black Glove and also William Hand (aka Black Hand, the Green Lantern villain, Bill Finger having been the co-creator of the original Green Lantern).
    It's quite the family tree.

    Martha Kane
    Philip Kane
    Bette Keane
    Kathy Kane
    Kate Kane
    Jacob Kane
    Elizabeth Kane
    Cassandra Cain
    David Cain

    There are almost more characters named for Bob Kane than the amount of characters he created in Batman.

    Finger and Robinson have probably the same amount of references, location based, as O'Neal and Adams. I know King has gone overboard in naming Gotham landmarks for writers and artists, he did the Moore Church I think? I don't remember specifically if there's anything for Miller but I remember Judge Wolfman and Wein Tower or something else maybe in Batman 50.

    Are there landmarks for Moench, Dixon, Grayson, Simone, Rucka, Brubaker? I feel like it's about time they get a boulevard or some buildings.

  9. #39
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    It would be interesting to see a take that goes back to the earlier depictions, where neither Thomas nor Martha come from ancestral wealth... you have to change a number of justifications but I think a more modest-means Batman could retain all of the core elements but also seem fresh.

    Here's my pitch on it.

    They are not old money, they are new money millionaires who die in a confused mugging; their assassin thought they were someone else. Thomas is a surgeon and Marta is a philanthropist or perhaps a writer. They're not famous. There's no family company. They die and it's news, but Bruce Wayne is not like JFK Jr, he's not the prince of Gotham. He's not an Elon Musk or a Trump Jr. The Wayne Murder is famous enough to be an obscure reference on a true crime podcast. There are plenty of children of wealth who we would never hear about, who are not famous or leading huge conglomerates that essentially runs an entire city on top of being vigilante detective crime fighters.

    His parents died and he is a child of privilege and doesn't need to work, and he drifts. But the Waynes raised Bruce right, and their morals drive him as much as his anger does in eventually finding the focus and inspiration for Batman. Alfred is perhaps an uncle, Martha's brother from the UK, who worked as a spy. Bruce lives with Uncle Alfred and from there begins backpacking Europe and into Asia and Africa and all over the world, seeking out people who are interesting like Alfred.

    Wayne Manor is a mansion that Bruce buys, that's his ironic name for it maybe, or it's what Alfred sarcastically calls it. There's not really a Batcave, just a workshop and garage and basement and hidden rooms... as a child Bruce was frightened by bats, on a vacation to a cave with his parents, the first time his bubble was pierced as a kid before their deaths. So Bruce invites Alfred to visit his new Gotham home when he stops traveling because he doesn't know anyone else, or have any other family, but he's got an idea for a project called Batman and he wants advice. Bruce is doing it no matter what, but Alfred thinks he's going to get himself killed if he doesn't step in and help his nephew.

    Bruce and Alfred invent Batman in a way that subtly mirrors Kane/Finger -- Bruce has the general idea and he's the face of it, but Alfred fills in the details. They have more of a Holmes and Watson dynamic, and Alfred stays in the US in Gotham to work with Bruce on this.

    Robin begins independently, and joins Batman. They are closer in age. I think it's like, Batman begins when he's 23, and Dick is 16 when he begins as Robin. Like a grad student and a high school sophomore. Dick Grayson is an acrobat child performer with his family, his parents are killed by a mob shakedown. He's raised in the foster system and bounces around, concealing his anger. Inspired by Robin Hood and the new Batman, Dick just adopts a simple mask disguise and uses his natural athleticism carry him as a vigilante targeting the mob.

    Batman and Robin join forces because Bruce has the wealth to share, in terms of resources and housing, and in terms of Alfred's knowledge.

    Bruce is able to foster Dick until he's 18... and he's still in high school and has to maintain that schedule, even with his new night activities and unusual housing situation with a party boy rich kid. Of course, the appearance of living with some rich dude who just fucks off and parties also sounds like a good situation, classmates would be jealous of him. Imagine Dick Grayson throwing a rager at Wayne Manor for his high school buddies. That's this version of the high society parties in the regular version -- gotta do it just to keep up appearances.

    The gadgets, tech, and vehicle access is much more subdued. They use bikes and unmarked black sedans and SUVs. Grappling hooks, themed shurikens, smoke bombs, smart watches and devices, etc.

    Batman is much more famous than Bruce Wayne, who is off the grid and reclusive and rich enough to live anonymously. Dick Grayson is more well known.
    Last edited by gregpersons; 11-24-2019 at 01:58 AM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    There are almost more characters named for Bob Kane than the amount of characters he created in Batman.
    If you consider that Bobby is a nick-name for Barbara, then Barbara Kean--James Gordon's former wife and the mother of Barbara Gordon--could be called Bobby Kean. That's pretty on the nose.

  11. #41
    Truth and Justice DC Classics's Avatar
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    Thomas Wayne must have been the kind father, giving humanitarian and philanthropic medical doctor, because if Thomas Wayne was a Trumpian snooty and abusive yuppie scum miser that cares only about his own profits, Martha would have been just his trophy wife, and an abusive Thomas Wayne wouldn't have bothered to take his wife and son out to a movie, also an abusive Thomas Wayne would probably be more concerned with protecting himself during a mugging, not try to protect his wife by stepping between his wife and Joe Chill, and if his father was abusive then Bruce wouldn't have been so anguished about his fathers murder to take the classic oath "I swear by the spirits of my parents, to avenge their deaths... by spending the rest of my life warring on all criminals" and become Batman. It destroys the sympathetic emotional impact of the death of Thomas Wayne if it was not a good man getting gunned down, if instead it seems more like it's karma and a fitting end for his kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I had always thought of the Wayne fortune as old money, and I seem to recall this being implied in stories during the 90s too.
    In Detective Comics #33 (1939) "Legend: The Batman and How He Came to Be" Bill Finger had established that Bruce Wayne had inherited his fortune from the Wayne estate.

    Click to enlarge...

    RCO069_1471423580g.jpg

    In Batman #120 (1958) "The Failure of Bruce Wayne" Bill Finger had established the Wayne tradition of bravery and greatness, but Bruce Wayne's great-uncle Silas Wayne thought Bruce was failing to live up to the Wayne tradition of bravery and greatness, so Bruce revealed the bravery of his secret identity as Batman.

    Click to enlarge...

    RCO014gt.jpg

    In Legends of the Dark Knight #27 (1992) "The Destroyer Part Two: Solomon" Denny O'Neil had established Bruce Wayne's great-great grandfather was Judge Solomon Wayne, during the civil war era he was an entrepreneur, he started a dozen businesses, including Gotham Buggy Whip Works, creating the Wayne fortune and had architect Cyrus Pinkney design the decorative Tudor Gothic Revival architecture of Gotham City, which that comic also brought the Burtonverse Gotham City designed by Anton Furst into the standard DCU comic book canon in the '90s.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by DC Classics; 11-24-2019 at 03:51 PM.

  12. #42
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    The fact that the Waynes have a bulter is one of the reasons we probably now think they were well off. But realistically if they were mega-rich, they wouldn't just have one butler. For the 1930s, a middle class white family having one servant was no big deal. In many movies and TV shows--even on THE BRADY BUNCH in the 1970s--there's at least one person that keeps house for the family. And back in the '30s, when you didn't have modern appliances that lightened the load, a family would need an extra hand to get all the work done around the house. Since they weren't spending their income on all those modern conveniences that hadn't been invented yet (or were so expensive that only wealthy people could afford them), it made more sense for a famly to hire help.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    The fact that the Waynes have a bulter is one of the reasons we probably now think they were well off. But realistically if they were mega-rich, they wouldn't just have one butler. For the 1930s, a middle class white family having one servant was no big deal. In many movies and TV shows--even on THE BRADY BUNCH in the 1970s--there's at least one person that keeps house for the family. And back in the '30s, when you didn't have modern appliances that lightened the load, a family would need an extra hand to get all the work done around the house. Since they weren't spending their income on all those modern conveniences that hadn't been invented yet (or were so expensive that only wealthy people could afford them), it made more sense for a famly to hire help.
    Well, from the very beginning, Bruce said his father left him wealthy. There was no mention of household servants for Thomas and Martha until later (Alfred originally being a later addition after Dick was there) but certainly they would have hired household help. Upper middle class did, then, as you said. But Bruce was a wealthy socialite (with no indication of needing to earn any money himself) and playboy from the beginning. I'm not really sure when he shifted from wealthy to very, very rich. Or when he went from millionaire to billionaire.

    In Brave and the Bold 113 (July 1974) Wayne Foundation (company name at the time) was worth about 27 million. Measuring worth gives that about 360 million in economic share (largest number from any way it can be measured). That's is indisputably extremely rich. But it nothing compared to the wealth Bruce has now. Back in the 1980s, he didn't compare to Dayton (Beast Boy/Changeling's adoptive father) in terms of wealth. Today, Bruce is top 5, at least. And he wasn't always as wealthy as he was in the 1970s, IMO.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 11-24-2019 at 04:43 PM.

  14. #44
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    I've always preferred the humble doctor who happens to be worth billions. I didn't even really know that anyone had been trying to write him otherwise.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Mutant God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    It's quite the family tree.
    Finger and Robinson have probably the same amount of references, location based, as O'Neal and Adams. I know King has gone overboard in naming Gotham landmarks for writers and artists, he did the Moore Church I think? I don't remember specifically if there's anything for Miller but I remember Judge Wolfman and Wein Tower or something else maybe in Batman 50.

    Are there landmarks for Moench, Dixon, Grayson, Simone, Rucka, Brubaker? I feel like it's about time they get a boulevard or some buildings.
    The only one I know is Westward Bridge, for Adam West and Burt Ward, but that I think was for a game.

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