Page 1 of 16 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 236
  1. #1
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    628

    Default To those unhappy with the relaunch, how would you fix it?

    I've seen it said in many of the threads, in response to people not liking what's going on, well, what would you do differently? So why not put it to everyone: What would you do to fix your problems with the relaunch?

    This can be as broad or narrow as you like. If you love what's happening but maybe have a problem with one of the books or just one particular thing, that's fine too. What small thing would you change? And if you just hate everything, how would you change things? What kind of story would you prefer?

  2. #2
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    47į9′S 126į43′W
    Posts
    11,201

    Default

    I would do away with the mutant supremacy rhetoric and the cult commune feel.
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  3. #3
    Incredible Member xpyred's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    529

    Default

    Everyone sounds so robotic. Just so artificial.

  4. #4
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    203

    Default

    The simplest thing to do would be to show people questioning it.

    Magneto has tried this before. Xavier has tried this before. Scott and Logan have tried this before. Emma has. Have someone point out the obvious and ask what is different—and then show them proving themselves to mutant kind. They showed off to ambassadors and set up Krakoa and mutantkind’s legitimacy to humans and national governments; they didn’t show why the people should listen to them when this isn’t different from what Xavier and magneto have been trying to do for decades. Why is it different? We the reader know it’s because of Moira; they, every character but those three in the loop, do not and therefore don’t have an in-character reason to follow along, seemingly blindly. Some might go for it and believe in the leadership of these men, but not everyone, for sure.

  5. #5
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Commuting betwen "Marvel Future Fight" and ZETSUBOU-SHITA!
    Posts
    1,971

    Default

    Have all Marvel characters in existence have a sit-down with the One-Above-All and maybe the One-Below-All, where it's revealed to them that they ARE just fictional characters in comic books (boy, will they be shooting glares at Deadpool and maybe She-Hulk after that bombshell) and that the Ones Above-and-Below ARE the embodiment of the creative and editorial teams of Marvel over the decades. We have the IRL-dead Marvel "leadership" figures like Stan and Jack manifesting as character avatars for the Ones, while the currently active (and formerly-involved but still-living) personages are represented by, say, SEELE-like monoliths.

    Then the discussion starts on the ups and downs of Marvel story-smithing throughout its publishing history. Introduce the characters to the SLIDING TIMELINE, as well as the RETCON, and how this narrative tool either added or subtracted biographical elements from their fictional lives, be it for good or for ill. (Say Emma, this was your backstory as you related in in Gen-X. Great job controlling that asylum-keeper to let you out! Scratch that, here's your new backstory several publishing years later: You started in the HFC as a STRIPPER!) (Tessa, or was is Sage, SURPRISE! You were working for Xavier all this time!) (Chuck, great damage control in putting together the new X-Men team to save the originals from being drained dry by Krakoa! Let's shake things up: we'll add this event in your past that there was actually an earlier team managed by your "friend" Doc McTaggart that you then sent off to their deaths! How shocked will Scott and friends be when they discover that? Wait, Scott! now you know, Gabriel and his buddies NEVER EXISTED until we wrote them into your timeline!)

    Then the Ones-Above-and-Below-All wait as the Marvel characters start venting over the realization that they were toys in a box and that their lives and histories were just an increasingly ratty patchwork of sometimes-contradictory plots that passes itself off as "continuity." It'll take some deft writing here (by the current creatives) to sell how the likes of Emma, Scott, Charles, Moira (Hey, if you were a mutant that gets reborn back in time after, who was it that was resurrected in "Necrosha?" and the non-X's like Peter (We made Gwen pregnant before her death, OUTTA nowhere!) will argue at how a constantly-changing editorial and writing office has ruined their lives for the sake of conflict, and how Stan's mandate of "our characters are HUMANLY FLAWED and will make decisions that screw themselves as much or maybe more than benefit." The entities take in the characters' feedback, try to reach a consensus on what to do with their jumbled histories and respective biographies. (Would you like something pruned from your life, Emma? Chuck, Steve? Tony? Get things streamlined and everything) Maybe we can have Walt and Mickey with Keyblade show up and say some stuff too.

    "See Doc McCoy, all the Marvel World's a stage, and all you men and women merely players that go back and forth from the box to the spotlight as needed. YOU the characters tell US how you want your world to be like, and it must be a unified vision."Let's get the perfect balance out of an idealized setting, as can be had from a WORK OF FICTION, and the Marvel conceit that this universe is like THE WORLD OUTSIDE YOUR WINDOW *BZZT! no mention of current politics here*. Ready? Moira X, let's put your 11th life to use now. Add in the Ressurrection protocols, and the Infinity Stones to make it work on all dead characters...Ready? *snap*
    Genkai nante nai (No limits), Zettai nante nai (No absolutes)

    The Current Hill that I Risk Dying On: #KrakoaNEVERMYXMEN
    "I promise, I'll definitely save you. With my tenth and final life, I WILL PROTECT YOU, MUTANDOKA!" ~HoMoira Kinross Akemi

  6. #6
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    277

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by xpyred View Post
    Everyone sounds so robotic. Just so artificial.
    This is Hickmans weakness. A weakness that some donít care for or notice. With Hickman himself he introduces concepts, themes and overarching plots that you focus on instead.

    Ponder if he picked writers that mirror himself. Or dialogue isnít a big priority with him as showrunner. How much do we fans care?

    With myself I feel that it annoys me sometimes but I overlook it due to the overalll quality and exciting ideas. Unless it comes to my favorites. Then it becomes hard to overlook.

    I love big weird ideas but at the end of the day Iím here for character driven stories. If those characters arenít written In character Iím out after a few issues. Itís the same with reading Morrison for me.

    I just think Editorial will need to step up. Other then that it might be a question of getting warm with these characters for some writers. Letís hope they are professional enough that they acknowledge their strengths and weaknesses and keep an open mind. Worst case scenario they realize that some characters donít fit them and they get moved to other writers who are better fits.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member ChronoRogue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,225

    Default

    No off-panel reactions to resurrections and decompression. I feel like this is a franchise problem in general with resurrections how we get Banshee coming back but no reactions or interactions from his daughter is lmao, but with HOX/DOX it just turned the dial up on this issue. I feel like it's a bit disrespectful to the original run to not only make the death cheap, but to rob the reader of the emotional pay offs of these characters returning which we don't see expressed with their friends or family. Realistically do we need to see every single reaction? No. But there are plenty of big one's that were huge moments for various characters. Did Husk and Cannonball completely forget they had a brother who died? Where is are the reactions of Emma in seeing the Hellions or her class in Genosha? The kids who died on during the Purifier attack for the New X-Men crowd? Synch and Skin for Generation X? etc... I feel a bit robbed in this sense, the throw-away explanation of "it happened off-panel" just doesn't cut it imho.

    More coherent roster choices and less singular character focus. No stealth solos please, I'm seeing this crop up for what I've read so far in many 'team' titles but the major focus being Kate (Marauders), Betsy (Excalibur), Kwannon (Fallen Angels) and Cyclops (X-Men). Maybe this will change in later issues, but that's not the impression I'm getting from interviews. Only X-Force so far felt like there wasn't a clear protagonist in the book. I've also got my gripes with what characters seemed to be chosen for what books, but I'll leave that for another thread.

    More on-panel voicing of dissent or questioning regarding of new direction and cooperation with villains. Basically tying into what others said regarding the cult-like behavior of the X-Men. Maybe this a plot point that will be addressed later down the line, but it's kinda aggravating to see these characters be so unconcerned about sleeping next to characters who have tried to kill them multiple times. Like with resurrection(s), this is another franchise-related problem though, and they do have a history of freely giving out pardons for people who wear their badge.

    Characterization seems a bit weak across the board but that's more of a writer-to-writer issue.
    Last edited by ChronoRogue; 11-23-2019 at 02:06 AM.

  8. #8

    Default

    Characterisation--this is equally important as plot, if not more-so! Find the character's voice, get into their head, really assess how they'd feel about the situation beyond the author thinking "This is the way forward." Challenge that, even alongside leaps of progress! Individuality is key here; though people will unite for the greater good, they'll never see it the exact same way, nor will they be quite so willing to go along. Show that! And stop with the broad-brush, hyperbole, rhetoric language. If it's important enough to challenge, have the character show us why.

    Narrative resistance--only on a much more personal level. Let characters explore gut feelings, if something looks too good to be true, let them suss it out for themselves, let us as the audience see it through their eyes! Simply being told "Everything is amazing right now," quite often, isn't enough for our suspension of disbelief; we need to experience it, not just be told about it. Address the audiences concerns, don't snark at it! It hardly makes for an endearing experience. For every one character telling us about why things are great, have another asking "why do you think that?" or at least disagreeing slightly!

    Nuance--this is something that feels totally lost in this new direction. Hickman's distilled the problem to "Us VS Them" on a global scale without considering the grey areas in between. For example, while characters like Magneto might be perfectly content with looking down the bridge of his nose at humans and all that makes them such, religion for example, others like Dani, Rahne, Kurt and Kitty are going to think differently; their religions and cultures have heavily shaped and informed who they are. It's not the extent of their personality, of course, but it's definitely run alongside them in a meaningful manner. That can't be simply tossed aside; show characters who still identify with the 'human' side of themselves, explore what that means! Show characters who still have close ties to their families but might not like the idea of being completely separated from them, show characters who resent the idea of having to uproot themselves from their communities, and just as importantly; have characters call out others' rhetorics. Additionally, have characters react to the things that are going to push them from point A to point B. Don't just drop us in there and expect it to be alright!

    Storm is a prime example of this: why is she so dedicated to the cause beyond the data-pages? What has pushed her from what was a generally objective, moderate outlook to a much more jaded and embittered one? Even one sentence with clear, unambiguous language would help us empathise with this and be much more receptive to seeing it explored.

    Enough with the data pages--The only place I've seen these used well is in Excalibur, and that's because it seems to integrate into the overall narrative much more organically. Don't interrupt the story or use these as a substitute for actual, character reactions. Those only explain the broader context, they do not account for each, individual reaction, nor what went on within those scenarios.
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 11-23-2019 at 03:33 AM.

  9. #9
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Imagi Nation
    Posts
    7,003

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    … if something looks too good to be true...
    … it usually is? While the messages have been subtle, I think the signaling has been pretty clear:



    … It's just a shell. ...


    … and now it's real. …

    … Do you really believe that?...


    … That's what Krakoa does. Makes everyone feel safe.

    And when you're safe, you're soft.
    … that ole Krak-head's utopia induced euphoria, will be relatively short lived.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heroine Addict View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Krakoafrom Giant-Size in 1975...
    I'm glad you brought this up!

    As upon reflection, I think aspects of how the living island's original nature was shown back then:



    … might be somethin' to keep in mind now, as it could prove to be important, or even... integral. ;D

    (If you're in a hurry, go right to say... about the 34 min. mark, should be good, to see what I'm referring to... eXactly.)

  10. #10
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    741

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Characterisation--this is equally important as plot, if not more-so! Find the character's voice, get into their head, really assess how they'd feel about the situation beyond the author thinking "This is the way forward." Challenge that, even alongside leaps of progress! Individuality is key here; though people will unite for the greater good, they'll never see it the exact same way, nor will they be quite so willing to go along. Show that! And stop with the broad-brush, hyperbole, rhetoric language. If it's important enough to challenge, have the character show us why.

    Narrative resistance--only on a much more personal level. Let characters explore gut feelings, if something looks too good to be true, let them suss it out for themselves, let us as the audience see it through their eyes! Simply being told "Everything is amazing right now," quite often, isn't enough for our suspension of disbelief; we need to experience it, not just be told about it. Address the audiences concerns, don't snark at it! It hardly makes for an endearing experience. For every one character telling us about why things are great, have another asking "why do you think that?" or at least disagreeing slightly!

    Nuance--this is something that feels totally lost in this new direction. Hickman's distilled the problem to "Us VS Them" on a global scale without considering the grey areas in between. For example, while characters like Magneto might be perfectly content with looking down the bridge of his nose at humans and all that makes them such, religion for example, others like Dani, Rahne, Kurt and Kitty are going to think differently; their religions and cultures have heavily shaped and informed who they are. It's not the extent of their personality, of course, but it's definitely run alongside them in a meaningful manner. That can't be simply tossed aside; show characters who still identify with the 'human' side of themselves, explore what that means! Show characters who still have close ties to their families but might not like the idea of being completely separated from them, show characters who resent the idea of having to uproot themselves from their communities, and just as importantly; have characters call out others' rhetorics. Additionally, have characters react to the things that are going to push them from point A to point B. Don't just drop us in there and expect it to be alright!

    Storm is a prime example of this: why is she so dedicated to the cause beyond the data-pages? What has pushed her from what was a generally objective, moderate outlook to a much more jaded and embittered one? Even one sentence with clear, unambiguous language would help us empathise with this and be much more receptive to seeing it explored.
    That and more 'heart': how can they make us feel if they don't seem to feel. Claremont considered the characters as 'people' and wrote them as people. It also doesn't help that comic artists seem to have problems to draw expressions on their faces, there is also a body language, I'm sorry but I have been used to much more quality than that from the comics I've read since… the beginning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Enough with the data pages--The only place I've seen these used well is in Excalibur, and that's because it seems to integrate into the overall narrative much more organically. Don't interrupt the story or use these as a substitute for actual, character reactions. Those only explain the broader context, they do not account for each, individual reaction, nor what went on within those scenarios.
    Also, a comic doesn't need explanations, it should stand on its own: no interviews, no data pages… or it's a weak product.
    Well, it won't come to that: talent is not so common. I have read enough comics in my lifetime, I can't stand low-standard work anymore.
    "Ö something strong and soft and green,
    thrusting through the dead and petrified grayness."
    Alan Moore.

    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  11. #11
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    1,845

    Default

    I would have every story focus on my favorite characters and have the characters I dislike never show up on panel except to be insulted and humiliated.

    I also would like the mutant as a metaphor thing to never make me feel uncomfortable or question myself because I don't think thats what fiction is supposed to do. I would like it to make me feel good about myself and no one else.

    Thank you.

  12. #12
    Amazing Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    53

    Default

    I would have simply started Krakoa with only X-Men characters only rebuild the whole entire team bring back all the kids and slowly introduce the villians into Krakoa , everyone all lumped into one nation is unrealistic especially given somes ast history with The X-Men and not EVERYONE should be an X-Men.
    Mutants Vs Mutants , Mutants Vs Humans , Mutants Vs Heroes and Mutants Vs
    Villians was a great mix to the foklore the whole Mutant Vs Others only is unrealistic , expected and boring.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Americana
    Posts
    4,715

    Default

    The only thing that really needs to happen is they need to explain better how the continuity goes from where it was at the end of Rosenburg's Uncanny to this status quo. That really needs to be done. (Hickman says writers are empowered to do this through flashbacks and references so we'll just have to find out if it happens enough)

    And the details about Moira's retcon need a lot more ironing out (especially her affecting Xavier and Magneto, that doesn't seem consistent at all with known 616 history). Fortunately there will be a book to supposedly accomplish this part.

    Let's see what else is a problem. Also, Krakoa feels almost identical to the concept of Genosha. Why is it different? That needs answering/explaining.

    And then they need to do a much better job of not making characters feel really strange such as Storm going cultish and bananas when she triumphantly celebrated "The Five" bringing back the dead mutants from their mission attacking the Mother Mold. That was so creepy. It's things like that that make fans question all of this so much. I think this ties into my first point as well. If we had a better motivation or grounding for this status quo we could better appreciate how emotional the characters in-universe are about it.

    I guess the whole "villains and heroes are living together and even working together and leading and following each other" could use more explanation as well. Many fans take issue with a lot of these characters being 'allowed to breathe the same air' as their faves so it'd be nice to kinda ease into that a bit more instead of the way it's been, where it's all of a sudden ALL known mutants are "just here" and half of the new government are known villains. That is causing a lot of problems for many fans. (For me personally I love the concept but it definitely needs to be something you transition towards and not just instantly plop it down and don't really develop. No tensions at all is unbelievable.)
    Forget the old ways - Krakoa is god.

    OBEY

  14. #14
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    9,915

    Default

    Lots of good points.

    Yeah use less data pages and use on the begining or end of the issue to not break the pace of stories. majority seems pointless or just some jokes

    More focus on characterization and dialogue. This have been really lacking

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Characterisation--this is equally important as plot, if not more-so! Find the character's voice, get into their head, really assess how they'd feel about the situation beyond the author thinking "This is the way forward." Challenge that, even alongside leaps of progress! Individuality is key here; though people will unite for the greater good, they'll never see it the exact same way, nor will they be quite so willing to go along. Show that! And stop with the broad-brush, hyperbole, rhetoric language. If it's important enough to challenge, have the character show us why.

    Narrative resistance--only on a much more personal level. Let characters explore gut feelings, if something looks too good to be true, let them suss it out for themselves, let us as the audience see it through their eyes! Simply being told "Everything is amazing right now," quite often, isn't enough for our suspension of disbelief; we need to experience it, not just be told about it. Address the audiences concerns, don't snark at it! It hardly makes for an endearing experience. For every one character telling us about why things are great, have another asking "why do you think that?" or at least disagreeing slightly!

    Nuance--this is something that feels totally lost in this new direction. Hickman's distilled the problem to "Us VS Them" on a global scale without considering the grey areas in between. For example, while characters like Magneto might be perfectly content with looking down the bridge of his nose at humans and all that makes them such, religion for example, others like Dani, Rahne, Kurt and Kitty are going to think differently; their religions and cultures have heavily shaped and informed who they are. It's not the extent of their personality, of course, but it's definitely run alongside them in a meaningful manner. That can't be simply tossed aside; show characters who still identify with the 'human' side of themselves, explore what that means! Show characters who still have close ties to their families but might not like the idea of being completely separated from them, show characters who resent the idea of having to uproot themselves from their communities, and just as importantly; have characters call out others' rhetorics. Additionally, have characters react to the things that are going to push them from point A to point B. Don't just drop us in there and expect it to be alright!

    Storm is a prime example of this: why is she so dedicated to the cause beyond the data-pages? What has pushed her from what was a generally objective, moderate outlook to a much more jaded and embittered one? Even one sentence with clear, unambiguous language would help us empathise with this and be much more receptive to seeing it explored.
    It's really lacking on character exploration and reaction to the new status quo.
    Last edited by spirit2011; 11-23-2019 at 10:18 AM.

  15. #15
    Incredible Member FIGHT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    602

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoRogue View Post

    More coherent roster choices and less singular character focus. No stealth solos please, I'm seeing this crop up for what I've read so far in many 'team' titles but the major focus being Kate (Marauders), Betsy (Excalibur), Kwannon (Fallen Angels) and Cyclops (X-Men). Maybe this will change in later issues, but that's not the impression I'm getting from interviews. Only X-Force so far felt like there wasn't a clear protagonist in the book. I've also got my gripes with what characters seemed to be chosen for what books, but I'll leave that for another thread.

    was thinking about this the other day.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •