To those unhappy with the relaunch, how would you fix it?

[pkingdom]

I'm not familiar with Excaliber, and my entire knowledge of Captain Britain comes from Avengers Academy, the mobile game that got shut down earlier this year. So I can't comment on that much, but I'd like to hear about what the Braddock's usually/used to do. Apocalypse being on that team caused me to NOPE out of there, and the solicits give me the impression that they are going to be stealing magic from the British mystical Otherworld forces. I'm not sure how that plays with the notion of being 'Captain Britain'.

The idea of setting up international mutant superhero teams is actually really cool. It would really help get away from the America-centric storytelling and emphasize mutants being a global thing. Plus it would give mutants outside of the O5 and central X leaders. For me, seeing them get back to actual superheroics would be nice.

Marauders was always a bizarre title choice

[CRaymond]

Marvel UK is an incredibly weird corner of the Marvel Universe, made adjacent to X-Men via the exchange of Betsy Braddock for Nightcrawler, Shadowcat and Rachel Summers.

Marvel UK is chock full of ironically violent and single-minded characters, as well as earnest loving characters for whom Batman-like passions and Spider-Man ethics are unnatural concepts. They feel different than American superheroic tropes, and you’re either a fan or you’re not.

Excalibur was doubly unique for being sorta-Avengers, sorta-X-Men, but ultimately a book FULL of jokes. Fans of the MCU heroes would find the Alan Davis runs very fun.

I have a lot of ideas about Betsy Braddock, Captain Britain, Excalibur, etc... but my tastes aren’t everyone’s.

[Su_Whisterfield]

Marvel UK is an incredibly weird corner of the Marvel Universe, made adjacent to X-Men via the exchange of Betsy Braddock for Nightcrawler, Shadowcat and Rachel Summers.

Marvel UK is chock full of ironically violent and single-minded characters, as well as earnest loving characters for whom Batman-like passions and Spider-Man ethics are unnatural concepts. They feel different than American superheroic tropes, and you’re either a fan or you’re not.

Excalibur was doubly unique for being sorta-Avengers, sorta-X-Men, but ultimately a book FULL of jokes. Fans of the MCU heroes would find the Alan Davis runs very fun.

I have a lot of ideas about Betsy Braddock, Captain Britain, Excalibur, etc... but my tastes aren’t everyone’s.

Weren’t they just! The first superhero stories I ever read (apart from Warrior, with the super sane Warpsmiths and Axel Pressbutton) and they still stand up today. I like what I like, and what I like thrashes.

[Skullkid]

I would like to preface the following with the mention that I am a fan of the relaunch so I don't have much of an axe to grind here, however I do agree that I would like to see more interaction outside of Krakoa sooner rather than later. I am dying to know what the Avengers think about this.

Side note, despite the above I don't think it is really fair to say what I emboldened. The Avengers have a track record of not helping the mutants while the mutants often times help the Avengers. The X-Men were there for Secret Empire, War of the realms and other Avengers events. Rarely is the opposite true.

I'm sorry but that is not an equivalence that works, things Secret Empire and War of the Realms are not "Avengers problems" these are things that concern the entire MU, and the X-Men are apart of the MU just because the problem isn't specifically about them or mutants they still very much are involved, if Hyrda takes over Earth and gets the cosmic cube or the Dark Elves invade and get control of all the realms it isn't like these threats are just going to ignore the X-Men and let them walk away unscathed.
You really can't compare the X-Men helping out in company-wide events that touch pretty much all ongoing books to the Avengers sitting out things that are exclusive to X-Men books because its not the same thing.

[pkingdom]

That might be a discussion better suited to a different board. I was staying away from most of the X team books from Blue/Gold too now, so I'm not familiar with how many massive crisis' that they handled that they even could have called the Avengers and the like in to help with. A lot of X stuff was forcibly kept apart from the rest of the Marvel U for the stupid rights reasons.

We do seem to largely be in agreement that we'd like to see them interact more, and not in an antagonistic way. No more fighting or sniping at each other for not helping more.

[MYCMTSC]

I hate that the flagship book has the least amount of urgency right off the bat. It, along with the weird family reunion and rotating cast, gives it heavy X-Men Unlimited vibes.

I want X-MEN to feel as important as House of X/Powers of X did and it pales in comparison.

[Wolverine12]

I'm sorry but that is not an equivalence that works, things Secret Empire and War of the Realms are not "Avengers problems" these are things that concern the entire MU, and the X-Men are apart of the MU just because the problem isn't specifically about them or mutants they still very much are involved, if Hyrda takes over Earth and gets the cosmic cube or the Dark Elves invade and get control of all the realms it isn't like these threats are just going to ignore the X-Men and let them walk away unscathed.
You really can't compare the X-Men helping out in company-wide events that touch pretty much all ongoing books to the Avengers sitting out things that are exclusive to X-Men books because its not the same thing.

Okay, I suppose that's a fair enough point. Let's use the example of the Avenger's lack of concern of potential genocide during IvX as the example then. That was a fairly world wide event that concerned the entire human population. I also would rebuke your argument about a company wide event vs an X-Men event, that's stuff is all editorial decisions. Civil War II was globe spanning and the X-Men weren't really involved even though it had a lot of potential to affect them. That's the heart of my issue though, it's not so much that I think the Avengers won't/can't help it's more of a critique on how Marvel as a company has treated the mutant plight. It's just kind of a glaring issue when the Avengers start a civil war when Stamford got blown up, but the didn't really even show up when 42 mutants were blown up in front of their home.


Pkingdom is correct, this could spin off topic fairly easily so this will be the last I post here on the issue. Happy to continue discussing elsewhere.

Obviously it all comes down to editorial and the writers but with the luck the X-Men and mutants in general have had over the last decade it just seems strange that the Avengers didn't step in to help some.

[pkingdom]

How about we tie these two together then? I'd be interested in seeing a story that actually critically analyzed why there hasn't been much interaction between the two branches of Marvel. And I'm talking something more than sniping at each other for not helping more. Give an actual reason why during some of these crisis' other heroes didn't get involved.

Like, using your example of IvX, maybe a lot of the superhero community just wasn't aware of the severity of the problem, and nobody thought to inform them? The conflict had plenty of examples of poor communication already (which was mostly bad writing, but still). Or maybe they just line up that disaster with some other stuff going on in the Marvel world so that the other heroes were just busy with other world-ending junk.

My big post a couple pages back was me trying to extrapolate a reason for this disconnect, but none of that is actual text. Some of it could simply be made explicit. Or maybe go in the total opposite direction and have Tony Stark or Black Panther reveal they actually were doing stuff for mutants that the X-men were just not aware of. Maybe set up a secret Asteroid M enclave for refugees that they had been smuggling out of countries during one of the many disasters. They just didn't tell the X leaders because they didn't trust whoever was in charge at the time, or maybe the refugees themselves didn't want to get involved with the craziness surrounding the X-men.

Its not a perfect idea, but its something. Thoughts?

[Wolverine12]

How about we tie these two together then? I'd be interested in seeing a story that actually critically analyzed why there hasn't been much interaction between the two branches of Marvel. And I'm talking something more than sniping at each other for not helping more. Give an actual reason why during some of these crisis' other heroes didn't get involved.

Like, using your example of IvX, maybe a lot of the superhero community just wasn't aware of the severity of the problem, and nobody thought to inform them? The conflict had plenty of examples of poor communication already (which was mostly bad writing, but still). Or maybe they just line up that disaster with some other stuff going on in the Marvel world so that the other heroes were just busy with other world-ending junk.

My big post a couple pages back was me trying to extrapolate a reason for this disconnect, but none of that is actual text. Some of it could simply be made explicit. Or maybe go in the total opposite direction and have Tony Stark or Black Panther reveal they actually were doing stuff for mutants that the X-men were just not aware of. Maybe set up a secret Asteroid M enclave for refugees that they had been smuggling out of countries during one of the many disasters. They just didn't tell the X leaders because they didn't trust whoever was in charge at the time, or maybe the refugees themselves didn't want to get involved with the craziness surrounding the X-men.

Its not a perfect idea, but its something. Thoughts?

I think often there is a minor explanation given, the usual reason being that whatever team isn't helping is "off world." Something like IvX was too big imo. There was, in story, massive media coverage, entire cities that had cocoon's everywhere and a huge super powered population explosion. The Avenger's took notice of the new powered beings, but nobody knew the T-Mists were not only killing but sterilizing the entire mutant population? That's a hard sell for me especially given that the X-Men have several former Avengers in their ranks. I'm almost certain that Stark and Richards were mentioned to be looking into a fix after most of the damage had been done but considering that you would think that they would do something to stop the bleeding (better than moving them to limbo anyway). I can understand you don't want the teams stepping on each other's toes, I'm buying an X-Men book after all, not an Avengers book, but a one shot or a two part story about Stark and Reed working on a fix or saving mutants seems like a quick buck to be made by Marvel.

I think the fact that the X-Men were going from one extinction crisis to the next for basically 10 straight years real time just highlighted the issue. The Avengers are heroes, there is no way they would stand by and watch a species die and the fans know that, so when the X-Men are always almost being wiped out it is just so weird that Cap isn't there cracking skulls next to Logan.

This is veering a bit opposite of the thread, but a big part of the reason I like what Hickman has done is that he took the X-Men out of that cycle of perpetual doom. This circles me back to my original post in this thread, now that the X-Men don't actually need the Avenger's help I'm curious to see how they react. I suppose one could argue that the X-Men never needed the Avengers since they are capable heroes themselves, but I think during Decimation and IvX it felt like they needed some help.

[PsychoEFrost]

I think often there is a minor explanation given, the usual reason being that whatever team isn't helping is "off world." Something like IvX was too big imo. There was, in story, massive media coverage, entire cities that had cocoon's everywhere and a huge super powered population explosion. The Avenger's took notice of the new powered beings, but nobody knew the T-Mists were not only killing but sterilizing the entire mutant population? That's a hard sell for me especially given that the X-Men have several former Avengers in their ranks. I'm almost certain that Stark and Richards were mentioned to be looking into a fix after most of the damage had been done but considering that you would think that they would do something to stop the bleeding (better than moving them to limbo anyway). I can understand you don't want the teams stepping on each other's toes, I'm buying an X-Men book after all, not an Avengers book, but a one shot or a two part story about Stark and Reed working on a fix or saving mutants seems like a quick buck to be made by Marvel.

I think the fact that the X-Men were going from one extinction crisis to the next for basically 10 straight years real time just highlighted the issue. The Avengers are heroes, there is no way they would stand by and watch a species die and the fans know that, so when the X-Men are always almost being wiped out it is just so weird that Cap isn't there cracking skulls next to Logan.

This is veering a bit opposite of the thread, but a big part of the reason I like what Hickman has done is that he took the X-Men out of that cycle of perpetual doom. This circles me back to my original post in this thread, now that the X-Men don't actually need the Avenger's help I'm curious to see how they react. I suppose one could argue that the X-Men never needed the Avengers since they are capable heroes themselves, but I think during Decimation and IvX it felt like they needed some help.

The reason a lot of X-fans have gravitated towards (and the one that makes the most sense to me) is that at the end of the day the Avengers are government sanctioned law enforcement. They don't get involved with the X-Men getting annihilated in the same way they don't really care if the Maggia or AIM or Hydra or the Hand are going after one another (as long as civilians aren't in the cross fire). The X-Men are treated as worldwide criminals to most governments because of how ridiculous the anti-mutant sentiment got. And so the Avengers don't get involved to save them because there is no real motivation to do so. Helping them makes them look bad to the people they answer to at the end of the day.

[Wolverine12]

The reason a lot of X-fans have gravitated towards (and the one that makes the most sense to me) is that at the end of the day the Avengers are government sanctioned law enforcement. They don't get involved with the X-Men getting annihilated in the same way they don't really care if the Maggia or AIM or Hydra or the Hand are going after one another (as long as civilians aren't in the cross fire). The X-Men are treated as worldwide criminals to most governments because of how ridiculous the anti-mutant sentiment got. And so the Avengers don't get involved to save them because there is no real motivation to do so. Helping them makes them look bad to the people they answer to at the end of the day.

I don't think the Avengers have been a government sanctioned team except in the MCU and the Ultimate Universe. They worked with the US and world governments but I'm pretty sure Stark funded and housed them, maybe I'm completely wrong since I've only been reading since the early 00's but wasn't that the whole point of Civil War, to not become a government team?

Same with the X-Men, they aren't as on good of terms with most world governments but the US seems to tolerate them well enough outside of a random senator every few years. Also correct me if I'm misreading this but are you saying the Avengers only help people that will promote their public image in a positive light? Lastly why would you compare the X-Men to Maggia, AIM, the Hand and Hydra? The X-Men aren't generally viewed as criminals rather they are feared for unknown destructive potential. The other four groups you listed are clearly criminal enterprises that break laws openly. The X-Men just want the right to live freely.

[Killerbee911]

I don't think the Avengers have been a government sanctioned team except in the MCU and the Ultimate Universe. They worked with the US and world governments but I'm pretty sure Stark funded and housed them, maybe I'm completely wrong since I've only been reading since the early 00's but wasn't that the whole point of Civil War, to not become a government team?

Same with the X-Men, they aren't as on good of terms with most world governments but the US seems to tolerate them well enough outside of a random senator every few years. Also correct me if I'm misreading this but are you saying the Avengers only help people that will promote their public image in a positive light? Lastly why would you compare the X-Men to Maggia, AIM, the Hand and Hydra? The X-Men aren't generally viewed as criminals rather they are feared for unknown destructive potential. The other four groups you listed are clearly criminal enterprises that break laws openly. The X-Men just want the right to live freely.

Avengers has been US government sanctioned and UN sanctioned at different periods if remember correctly. Henry Peter Gyrich was often the US government liaison had control of decisions like roster make up for example that was way back. More recently after Civil War and Initiative stuff the government via Shield and Iron Man(head of shield) was charge of the Avengers.The government has had hand in Avengers a lot of times.

[Wolverine12]

Avengers has been US government sanctioned and UN sanctioned at different periods if remember correctly. Henry Peter Gyrich was often the US government liaison had control of decisions like roster make up for example that was way back. More recently after Civil War and Initiative stuff the government via Shield and Iron Man(head of shield) was charge of the Avengers.The government has had hand in Avengers a lot of times.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. I know the Avengers have worked with the US and international governments but outside of Tony's team during Civil War have they worked for the government? As in the military or Shield or some other agency tells them who they can and can not save? My understanding is the the Avengers followed the suggestions of the US government so they could stay autonomous and not have to turn over their proprietary technology, but the missions they choose are really up to them.

It's like the the Army can't decide to invade a country without Presidential and Congressional approval, but the Avengers can go overseas to fight Doom if they feel like it.

[Killerbee911]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. I know the Avengers have worked with the US and international governments but outside of Tony's team during Civil War have they worked for the government? As in the military or Shield or some other agency tells them who they can and can not save? My understanding is the the Avengers followed the suggestions of the US government so they could stay autonomous and not have to turn over their proprietary technology, but the missions they choose are really up to them.

It's like the the Army can't decide to invade a country without Presidential and Congressional approval, but the Avengers can go overseas to fight Doom if they feel like it.

A little piece of Gyrich bio from wiki

Henry Gyrich is the first person to be given the title of US Government Liaison to the Avengers by the National Security Agency later by the National Security Council. With his status, Gyrich is one of only two people (the other being the President of the United States) who could affect the Avengers in many difficult ways. During his tenure, Gyrich revokes the Avengers' priority status after taking issue. The Avengers have to accept Gyrich's "suggestions" or have their Quinjets and other sensitive equipment confiscated. He limits the Avengers' active membership to seven members, forces the Falcon to join unwillingly to fill an affirmative action quota Gyrich sets, and installs various security measures for the team. Gyrich oversees the Avengers' activities for the next several months without incident, until he forbids the team to go on a mission to help Quicksilver. The next incident involves a security leak. Gyrich takes part in a Senate investigation involving the Avengers which claims the team are national security threats. When the investigation ends, the Senate committee gives the Avengers new guidelines to follow, and the committee designates Raymond Sikorski as his successor

Yeah government has had real control over the Avengers at points and it makes sense in the big picture.

[PsychoEFrost]

Lastly why would you compare the X-Men to Maggia, AIM, the Hand and Hydra? The X-Men aren't generally viewed as criminals rather they are feared for unknown destructive potential. The other four groups you listed are clearly criminal enterprises that break laws openly. The X-Men just want the right to live freely.

They're lumped with those groups as threats to the general population, whether fairly or not.

As far as the government goes, the Avengers don't usually go out looking for things to stop. Unless a 50-foot tall Celestial is walking down Broadway, more often than not a government entity asks them to respond to a super villain level threat.