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  1. #226
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post

    For all the talk of how inferior human institutions are, I'm not seeing any actual idea of how to better them?
    I relaly want to see that, because the Krakoa council is totally a human way of government. Not a democratic or representative one

  2. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    I think we've had an answer to most of these questions, maybe not a definitive answer but they have all been touched upon.
    How so, exactly, because I've not seen even a hint of that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    We've seen cults that basically worship Krakoa/Mutants. We saw pharma companies wanting to co-op the drugs in HoX and we obviously saw the attack on Krakoa as for how it is effecting the mutant/human dynamic.
    One experience which is rather shallow all things considered. In any case we haven't seen any proper build-up or reasoning as to why these cults have suddenly popped up or even what these cult members think they're going to gain from acting as such. Even then, the Shaws just breeze on past as if it's a typical Tuesday; no reaction of any kind beyond "get out of my way." You'd think this would have been a big enough deal for other mutants to question it, especially so far as brokering peace or gaining more allies is concerned. Additionally, this doesn't address the already established human allies beyond the Richards, whom even then are getting their very own special later down the line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    We've seen blended family in New Mutants with Beak and Angel and her parents, also the effects drugs are having. Both in a literal sense (Angel's father was healed) and that human's want steal and sell them They also touched upon mutants who don't want to go as Beak and Angel wanted to stay and care for her father. I don't know about bake sales, but if a mutant doesn't want to go to Krakoa why would there be a fundraiser for them? Xavier is the wealthiest person on the planet so he can pretty much do what needs to be done in terms of money.
    Ok, for one thing: that wasn't all one question. Those were various rhetorical about hypothetical scenarios in one sentence.

    Again, we've seen one example for what miracles the drugs can do but not how this impacts the humans affected. The closest we've gotten to that is one throw-away data-page that can be overlooked, which is especially egregious considering the attitude presented there would have been perfect to see on panel and would have benefited the overall plot! Additionally, Beak and Angel are planning to go to Krakoa now that his father's been healed. That doesn't address what of those who don't want to go or don't feel suited to Krakoan life; who want to stay in their communities but might not be able to now that anti-mutant bigotry has escalated in such a manner.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    I made a comment in the X-Men #4 thread today about how the issue wasn't as decompressed as much as usual. I think that the way comics are written/how the story is told is part of the issue. There are only so many pages in the books and honestly what you want is valid, but it is a lot of ground to cover.
    Which, honestly, I argue shouldn't be a problem for Hickman considering he's stated to be in this for the long-term. If anything I think it's short-sighted of him not to consider this; he certainly hasn't helped by relegating most of these things to data pages. If anything those just give writers an excuse to be lazy and shove anything they don't feel like handling there. So, so lazy.

  3. #228
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    How so, exactly, because I've not seen even a hint of that.
    C'mon now, in the quotes below you acknowledge that most of the issues you have with the books are actually addressed, just not into the depth you would prefer.


    One experience which is rather shallow all things considered. In any case we haven't seen any proper build-up or reasoning as to why these cults have suddenly popped up or even what these cult members think they're going to gain from acting as such. Even then, the Shaws just breeze on past as if it's a typical Tuesday; no reaction of any kind beyond "get out of my way." You'd think this would have been a big enough deal for other mutants to question it, especially so far as brokering peace or gaining more allies is concerned. Additionally, this doesn't address the already established human allies beyond the Richards, whom even then are getting their very own special later down the line.
    I said the issues were touched upon, I didn't say they were explained in great detail. I think it's fairly simple to deduce why there are cults, humans do weird stuff like that all the time in real life. The best example I can think of is either religion or sports fans, there isn't really logic to it, it just makes people happy. The Shaw's are very much in character to just ignore the Humans, they've been doing it for years now. Personally I don't think the mutants would give much thought to the cults, much like I don't think professional athletes give much thought to overly obsessed fans.

    As for human allies, I will concede I am dying to see how the Avengers react to Krakoa so I am with you on that one.



    Ok, for one thing: that wasn't all one question. Those were various rhetorical about hypothetical scenarios in one sentence.

    Again, we've seen one example for what miracles the drugs can do but not how this impacts the humans affected. The closest we've gotten to that is one throw-away data-page that can be overlooked, which is especially egregious considering the attitude presented there would have been perfect to see on panel and would have benefited the overall plot! Additionally, Beak and Angel are planning to go to Krakoa now that his father's been healed. That doesn't address what of those who don't want to go or don't feel suited to Krakoan life; who want to stay in their communities but might not be able to now that anti-mutant bigotry has escalated in such a manner.
    I understand it wasn't one question, my answer simply tried to address all your points. Forgive my bluntness, but how do you want them explored exactly? I don't understand why a data page is a throw away even though it has been a tool used since the beginning of the overall story [HoX/PoX]. The medium the story is being told in is part literature and part art, I don't understand why the literary aspect is somehow less significant. Obviously this is extremely subjective however so if you prefer the visual aspect of the story than I can see why you would be frustrated.

    The message was conveyed by a character that has been a staple since Marauders began. I don't know his name, I don't know if it is even a "him" but the person is entertainingly written and has earned their spot in the rotation. For me personally, to see the scene illustrated wouldn't have really added any thing, and there weren't any scenes that I would've preferred to be removed so this could have been included.


    Which, honestly, I argue shouldn't be a problem for Hickman considering he's stated to be in this for the long-term. If anything I think it's short-sighted of him not to consider this; he certainly hasn't helped by relegating most of these things to data pages. If anything those just give writers an excuse to be lazy and shove anything they don't feel like handling there. So, so lazy.
    You said it yourself this is a long term project and we are on issue 4 of most books. I will agree that X-Men in particular has not moved forward very far in any one direction, but Hickman is clearly lining up the dominoes for all the sub plots he will address in the overall story. Is it going to take be resolved in 6 issues, absolutely not, but nothing ever is with Hickman. He is fairly well know for his long game. If you see that as a fault I won't argue with you because that is an opinion you're entitled to but I've followed Hickman both at Marvel and in his independent work for years now and I know what to expect from him so for me this is par for the course.
    You brought back Wolverine

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  4. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    I said the issues were touched upon, I didn't say they were explained in great detail. I think it's fairly simple to deduce why there are cults, humans do weird stuff like that all the time in real life. The best example I can think of is either religion or sports fans, there isn't really logic to it, it just makes people happy. The Shaw's are very much in character to just ignore the Humans, they've been doing it for years now. Personally I don't think the mutants would give much thought to the cults, much like I don't think professional athletes give much thought to overly obsessed fans.
    A cult is not the same as a club or gathering of overly obsessed fans; but even then, those celebrities do tend to spare a few moments now and then to reflect on how those kinds of reactions, good or ill, have impacted the kind of notoriety they now indulge in. These are a people who have been hated and discriminated against for their abilities to the most extreme; you don't think suddenly having groups pop up who have suddenly started devoting themselves and their beliefs to them is a big thing? You don't think it's worth addressing how unhealthy that is while weighing it against the idea of forming new human allies for mutants?


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    I understand it wasn't one question, my answer simply tried to address all your points. Forgive my bluntness, but how do you want them explored exactly?
    Well, for one thing, a little variation in the approach to plots. Say, for example, there are characters who just aren't sold on either the concept of Krakoa, or just don't feel at home, more-so than was presented in Fallen Angels. We need more than to be told that Krakoa is this wonderful haven; we need it to be proven to these characters, to really challenge this narrative and properly weigh up the pros and cons. This can also be achieved through addressing the world left behind on a more personal level for these characters; what's officially driven them from the roosts they were so comfortable in and how can it be challenged? If mutants want to take back their homes in their human communities then have them do it; if, as Storm says, they truly don't need to run from the world then let's see that happening! That also addresses the idea of broader integration and existence, which actually makes the influence of Krakoa seem much bigger, rather than as small as I can't help but see it as right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    I don't understand why a data page is a throw away even though it has been a tool used since the beginning of the overall story [HoX/PoX]. The medium the story is being told in is part literature and part art, I don't understand why the literary aspect is somehow less significant. Obviously this is extremely subjective however so if you prefer the visual aspect of the story than I can see why you would be frustrated.

    The message was conveyed by a character that has been a staple since Marauders began. I don't know his name, I don't know if it is even a "him" but the person is entertainingly written and has earned their spot in the rotation. For me personally, to see the scene illustrated wouldn't have really added any thing, and there weren't any scenes that I would've preferred to be removed so this could have been included.
    And what impact, exactly has it left? How did it influence the plot one way or the other other than by just being a data page?

    And I don't ask this as someone who enjoys the visual more than the text, because I actually tend be the opposite. What I enjoy is the story--I love seeing all these threads laid out and the emotions behind them. Say with Claremont; he'd make the text-boxes read like prose. You got an actual glimpse into a character's head and that created emotive tension for the narrative. It enriched the story as it was being told and, as such, was far less forgettable. These data-pages, to me, feel impersonal; they feel like foot-notes that the author couldn't be bothered to properly address. Additionally, they feel very detached from what's actually going on; I'm not seeing how they relate to the Marauder's mission, or impact them, nor do I care because there's nothing keeping me invested there. It doesn't feel like story, it just feels like notes, which is especially egregious because this looks to be a rather big plot point in and of itself!

    Conversely, I found a good use of them to be for when they were used as a journal in issue #1 of Marauders. That was a very good glimpse into Kitty's head and was appropriate for the situation as, yes, you can argue that it wasn't necessary to dedicate panel time to seeing Kitty sailing across the ocean. That was appropriate usage, because even if it was skipped then we were still able to see how Kitty's being impacted by what's going on around her.



    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    If you see that as a fault I won't argue with you because that is an opinion you're entitled to but I've followed Hickman both at Marvel and in his independent work for years now and I know what to expect from him so for me this is par for the course.
    Well if this is what to expect from Hickman, then I simply have to say he does not deserve any of the fanfare I've seen.

    While his ideas are ambitious and interesting, his execution is atrocious; his world-building comes at the extent of characterisation and, even then, that's lacking. No one character has a defined or even individual voice and even then they're only being used as mouth-pieces for some larger plot that probably could have been wrapped up in half the time.

  5. #230
    Fantastic Member Tugger's Avatar
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    I'm just not interested in current X-Men, or comics in general, anymore. Reboot after reboot after reboot and endless titles.

    I'm quite happy to reread what I consider to be 'classic' X-Men, from when I first started reading (Uncanny #174) to when they went through the Siege Perilous, plus selected other subsequent arcs (Children of the Vault, Blinded by the Light, Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire).

  6. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tugger View Post
    I'm just not interested in current X-Men, or comics in general, anymore. Reboot after reboot after reboot and endless titles.

    I'm quite happy to reread what I consider to be 'classic' X-Men, from when I first started reading (Uncanny #174) to when they went through the Siege Perilous, plus selected other subsequent arcs (Children of the Vault, Blinded by the Light, Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire).
    I actually feel like the current run grossly over-simplifies what the classic era was trying to explore? Mostly the grey-areas between opposing sides. I feel like by retconning Moira from human ally to mutant we've lost a fundamental vehicle in how to explore both sides of an issue and how, usually, the system doesn't speak for the individual as Moira once represented.

  7. #232
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tugger View Post
    I'm just not interested in current X-Men, or comics in general, anymore. Reboot after reboot after reboot and endless titles.

    I'm quite happy to reread what I consider to be 'classic' X-Men, from when I first started reading (Uncanny #174) to when they went through the Siege Perilous, plus selected other subsequent arcs (Children of the Vault, Blinded by the Light, Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire).
    I think I recognize your profile picture and I'm giggling to myself in my living room, surrounded by my family. Anyway, I think the X-men need a DC style crisis reboot for that reason. More so than the rest of Marvel they're a confusing, miserable mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I actually feel like the current run grossly over-simplifies what the classic era was trying to explore? Mostly the grey-areas between opposing sides. I feel like by retconning Moira from human ally to mutant we've lost a fundamental vehicle in how to explore both sides of an issue and how, usually, the system doesn't speak for the individual as Moira once represented.
    The retcon also makes Xavier into a complete monster who lied EVEN MORE than we already knew he lied. He didn't take any steps to stop any of the terrible things that happened to the X-men like the Phoenix Saga or House of M. The retcon has made both him and Moira into monsters that I'd rather see be completely removed from X history. Imagine if in Moira's final life she just kills Xavier, Magneto and Apocalypse right after the X-men are founded. Imagine the change THAT would cause.

  8. #233
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    This is sort of why I felt like Briar Raleigh should have had gotten the Moira treatment. Although Moura being a mutant isnt the worst thing. There are plenty of other baseline human allies anyway

  9. #234
    Astonishing Member From The Shadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tugger View Post
    I'm just not interested in current X-Men, or comics in general, anymore. Reboot after reboot after reboot and endless titles.

    I'm quite happy to reread what I consider to be 'classic' X-Men, from when I first started reading (Uncanny #174) to when they went through the Siege Perilous, plus selected other subsequent arcs (Children of the Vault, Blinded by the Light, Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire).
    I feel the same. I'd also like to add the constant deaths and resurrections. I can no longer suspend disbelief. I need some realism with my fantasy so I can lose myself in the story but now I'm very aware its a story and one using cheap stunts. I no longer think of them as real people. I can no longer immerse myself in these comics and see it as a looking glass to another world. Its no longer alive to me. Also, with the constant rebooting... how realistic is it to change teams every six months to a year/year and a half? Start new ones? Before you question the characters sanity or wonder if they can ever finish anything? And seem disorganized, distracted and aimless? I was just wondering... Is the Mauraders just the name of the book or is it the name of the team? Has it been explained the reason the X-Men chose a name that has an emotional meaning and bad feelings at that for the X-Men? X-Men like Kitty? she's on it, who almost died due to the Marauders (along with Kurt and Piotr), and the genocide of the Morlocks? If its just a name they decided on without an explanation then this is where suspension of disbelief fails as well. Hey Kitty why do you wish to save mutants with the name of genocidal traitors that almost killed you when death still meant something? The creator just liked the name I guess? Yep, little things like that bother me and can pull me out of a story. Ok, I'm prepared for the onslaught.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I actually feel like the current run grossly over-simplifies what the classic era was trying to explore? Mostly the grey-areas between opposing sides. I feel like by retconning Moira from human ally to mutant we've lost a fundamental vehicle in how to explore both sides of an issue and how, usually, the system doesn't speak for the individual as Moira once represented.
    Yeah, add this to why the X-World came crumbling down for me. In modern X-Men humans seem to be even less trusted then they used to be. I dont think mutanizing their human allies is the way to go. And I liked her human.

    Goodbye retcons, goodbye deaths, good bye resurrections and reboots. Good bye decompressed stories. Good bye disruptive events/crossovers, Good bye multiple teams, recycling names and heavy price tag as well. *Blows kiss*

    That said, I've only been sticking around the forums (which is less and less) because I love what they used to be.

    I reiterate... I'm prepared for the onslaught.
    Last edited by From The Shadows; 01-03-2020 at 07:55 PM.

  10. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by From The Shadows View Post
    That said, I've only been sticking around (which is less and less) because I love what they used to be.
    I'm in a similar boat to be honest; I adore individual characters and can't not support them, but I'm really hating more of what's going on around them than really loving it. Jubilee, Gambit, Laura, Rogue, Husk, Bling, Psylocke, Captain Britain...love them all individually and can't bear to abandon them. I just can't stand the world they're stuck in.

  11. #236
    Fantastic Member Tugger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by From The Shadows View Post
    I feel the same. I'd also like to add the constant deaths and resurrections. I can no longer suspend disbelief. I need some realism with my fantasy so I can lose myself in the story but now I'm very aware its a story and one using cheap stunts. I no longer think of them as real people. I can no longer immerse myself in these comics and see it as a looking glass to another world. Its no longer alive to me. Also, with the constant rebooting... how realistic is it to change teams every six months to a year/year and a half? Start new ones? Before you question the characters sanity or wonder if they can ever finish anything? And seem disorganized, distracted and aimless? I was just wondering... Is the Mauraders just the name of the book or is it the name of the team? Has it been explained the reason the X-Men chose a name that has an emotional meaning and bad feelings at that for the X-Men? X-Men like Kitty? she's on it, who almost died due to the Marauders (along with Kurt and Piotr), and the genocide of the Morlocks? If its just a name they decided on without an explanation then this is where suspension of disbelief fails as well. Hey Kitty why do you wish to save mutants with the name of genocidal traitors that almost killed you when death still meant something? The creator just liked the name I guess? Yep, little things like that bother me and can pull me out of a story. Ok, I'm prepared for the onslaught.

    Yeah, add this to why the X-World came crumbling down for me. In modern X-Men humans seem to be even less trusted then they used to be. I dont think mutanizing their human allies is the way to go. And I liked her human.

    Goodbye retcons, goodbye deaths, good bye resurrections and reboots. Good bye decompressed stories. Good bye disruptive events/crossovers, Good bye multiple teams, recycling names and heavy price tag as well. *Blows kiss*

    That said, I've only been sticking around the forums (which is less and less) because I love what they used to be.
    You sum up my feelings very well.

    Death used to mean something in comics but now when a character 'dies' you know that they are going to be back again in five minutes.

    Jean's original death actually meant something. I didn't mind her being resurrected the first time, as I thought the way it was done was quite clever and more importantly, believable.

    To answer the OP's question, I'm not sure. I've previously said in other threads that I think the X universe should be reset and go back to one main title (Uncanny), two at a push, with other characters appearing in something like X-Men Unlimited or their own limited series, (unless of course popularity warranted an ongoing series) but even if that were to happen, I'm not sure I'd really be invested in it after all this time.

    I guess that is what the intention of Dawn of X / Krakoa was but to me it all just sounds very zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

    I sense that a lot of people stick with X-Men because of their history with it but don't truly get much out of the experience any more, which is a shame.
    Last edited by Tugger; 01-04-2020 at 02:50 AM.

  12. #237
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    We're at the point where the initial series are reaching their climaxes or ending, in the case of Fallen Angles. Anything you would change? Is there anything turning you off from the upcoming issues/new series, and what would you change to get you invested?

  13. #238
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    I think there's to much focus on America representing the whole of humanity (in the ones Hickman is working on, at least). Saying "our education is much better than the terribly flawed human one" only works if you assume that America's education is done by the entire planet.

  14. #239
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    I think there's to much focus on America representing the whole of humanity (in the ones Hickman is working on, at least). Saying "our education is much better than the terribly flawed human one" only works if you assume that America's education is done by the entire planet.
    I complained about this on the like/dislike thread, USA is the basis for the entire world. Really flawed concept

  15. #240
    Chris-chan of X-fans Maestroneto's Avatar
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    I think it’s fair considering a lot of the rest of “the west” is trying to emulate the USA.

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