Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 27
  1. #1
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    426

    Default What stories are you looking for to get into minority characters?

    I believe this is my first thread post so hopefully I do this correctly.

    This thread was inspired by a poster in another thread talking about which black character can reach trinity status.
    The poster wanted to know what stories could be told to get people interested. In POC characters instead of shooting down characters and ideas. These type of threads have been made before about other DC characters so I thought about making one for minority ones since they usually are only talked about in these types of threads.

    It's no suprise that minority characters have a tough road in gaining popularity (much like any new character in this age). But because they were not part of the original JL, JSA, JLA, Legion, and Teen Titans teams they don't have a large following. Since those teams will rarely expand to include POC characters (or if they do they're erased in a reboot) they barely gain traction. They don't have any popular solos (if any) and are mainly team characters with the least amount of development compared to the more popular DC characters.They don't even make it into people's top ten. If I remember correctly there was a DC favorite character pole recently and I believe I only remember seeing John Stewart ( a Greeen Latern Legacy) in the 40s?

    With all that being said what stories would DC have to tell to get you invested in these characters just like you are with Batman, Superman, the Big 7, and even the original Fab 5 Titans?

  2. #2
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    988

    Default

    Hi. That was me. You've made a positive thread and sometimes I fear that its difficult for positive threads to gain traction.

    If I might though.

    After being in that thread for a while and thinking a lot about the topic.

    I think that Jaime Reyes blue beetle did it perfectly in his first arc, and then I lost track of the book but I did watch a series of Teen Titans in which he and the Reach were a big game topic.

    The last "new" book I bought was "Collider" I picked up 3 issues of it because the premise was interesting to me (a boy and his sentient black hole powering him) but I really dropped it because I didn't like
    the art style.
    Even though I'm black I really never look around and go "MAN I GOTTA PICK UP THIS NEW BLACK BOOK" I'm a reader so i'm looking for interesting Topics, Ideas, or takes on concept, as in my opinion all the stories have been
    told in an archetypal sense.

    You can tell every story that has been told with new characters, and do so in exiting ways, or you can pioneer newness and deal with inevitable comparisons.

    I'd not seen this but there was a Justice league cartoon with:
    Stargirl/Blue Bettle/ Firestrom
    There was an injustice God amoung us game with these scenes:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44L7x9rLmGI

    JLAction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXDVizim9jM

    As far as trinity level superheroes go? I'm checking for that team. They're not teen titans, they're not the JLA jr.
    They're a goddamn powerhouse trinity that need exploring.
    I'm checking for that.

    Hell I'd write that.

    As far as everything else that can be done? DC has had stubs of black and minority heroes planted here and there. They have a GUIDEBOOK how it could be done in the form of milestone comics.
    Jim Lee isn't drawing anything right now is he?
    Its not as hard as people make it out to be.

    Just don't do it like Marvel. Don't enter into the culture wars. Make good stories about superheroes and dark stories about anti-heroes/villians and Monsters.
    Don't use racist tropes/and don't try to get too preachy.
    Stoneyard. Lady Underground. Rush and Silence
    I'm checking for when Dc remembers these things
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  3. #3
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    426

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    Hi. That was me. You've made a positive thread and sometimes I fear that its difficult for positive threads to gain traction.

    If I might though.

    After being in that thread for a while and thinking a lot about the topic.

    I think that Jaime Reyes blue beetle did it perfectly in his first arc, and then I lost track of the book but I did watch a series of Teen Titans in which he and the Reach were a big game topic.

    The last "new" book I bought was "Collider" I picked up 3 issues of it because the premise was interesting to me (a boy and his sentient black hole powering him) but I really dropped it because I didn't like
    the art style.
    Even though I'm black I really never look around and go "MAN I GOTTA PICK UP THIS NEW BLACK BOOK" I'm a reader so i'm looking for interesting Topics, Ideas, or takes on concept, as in my opinion all the stories have been
    told in an archetypal sense.

    You can tell every story that has been told with new characters, and do so in exiting ways, or you can pioneer newness and deal with inevitable comparisons.

    I'd not seen this but there was a Justice league cartoon with:
    Stargirl/Blue Bettle/ Firestrom
    There was an injustice God amoung us game with these scenes:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44L7x9rLmGI

    JLAction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXDVizim9jM

    As far as trinity level superheroes go? I'm checking for that team. They're not teen titans, they're not the JLA jr.
    They're a goddamn powerhouse trinity that need exploring.
    I'm checking for that.

    Hell I'd write that.

    As far as everything else that can be done? DC has had stubs of black and minority heroes planted here and there. They have a GUIDEBOOK how it could be done in the form of milestone comics.
    Jim Lee isn't drawing anything right now is he?
    Its not as hard as people make it out to be.

    Just don't do it like Marvel. Don't enter into the culture wars. Make good stories about superheroes and dark stories about anti-heroes/villians and Monsters.
    Don't use racist tropes/and don't try to get too preachy.
    Stoneyard. Lady Underground. Rush and Silence
    I'm checking for when Dc remembers these things
    Well after seeing your positive post on Cyborg and for how that thread had its answers, I thought this thread would be a good idea.

    I haven't read a lot of blue beetle, but I did enjoy him in the Young Justice series, even if his story did kind of overwrite everyone else's. Honestly the animation department of DC has done way more for their minorities than their comics department.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    4,017

    Default

    Well, being a POC minority myself (I'm not in the US but I'm still a minority in my own country), honestly the main attraction would be culture.

    Like when I see Ms. Marvel for the first time, the one that appeals to me the most is how "at home" it feels. Kamala's family members, some wear traditional Muslim clothing, some wear casual clothing, some are conservative, some more liberal. They have a large picture of the scripture in their wall.

    All of that, when I saw that, this feels close. I know this. I'm not Muslim myself, but my friends, I've seen and visited houses like this. People like Kamala's family are all around me.

    So that's the first thing. Seeing that culture that's so rare to see in American media, is what attracts me to it. That's what makes me want to read it.

    Then there's characterization. The first Ms. Marvel book ended with Kamala being surprised her hair turned blond because she admires Carol Danvers. Some people call it racist, I call it accurate, because as a non-white who grow up in American media, I too, wished to be blonde and white once upon a time because that's what cool and attractive according to Hollywood.

    So it's like "I get you"

    The story can be whatever at that point, but the character and the world already speak to me.

    Well... not whatever whatever, since I still have a specific taste. Like for example, I didn't stay interested in Kamala Kahn for long since it's also a teenage girl's high school story, and I have zero interest in that... but then I'm going to have to talk about my specific taste, and that's not gonna be applicable for all characters.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 11-23-2019 at 12:52 PM.

  5. #5
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    426

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Well, being a POC minority myself (I'm not in the US but I'm still a minority in my own country), honestly the main attraction would be culture.

    Like when I see Ms. Marvel for the first time, the one that appeals to me the most is how "at home" it feels. Kamala's family members, some wear traditional Muslim clothing, some wear casual clothing, some are conservative, some more liberal. They have a large picture of the scripture in their wall.

    All of that, when I saw that, this feels close. I know this. I'm not Muslim myself, but my friends, I've seen and visited houses like this. People like Kamala's family are all around me.

    So that's the first thing. Seeing that culture that's so rare to see in American media, is what attracts me to it. That's what makes me want to read it.

    Then there's characterization. The first Ms. Marvel book ended with Kamala being surprised her hair turned blond because she admires Carol Danvers. Some people call it racist, I call it accurate, because as a non-white who grow up in American media, I too, wished to be blonde and white once upon a time because that's what cool and attractive according to Hollywood.

    So it's like "I get you"

    The story can be whatever at that point, but the character and the world already speak to me.

    Well... not whatever whatever, since I still have a specific taste. Like for example, I didn't stay interested in Kamala Kahn for long since it's also a teenage girl's high school story, and I have zero interest in that... but then I'm going to have to talk about my specific taste, and that's not gonna be applicable for all characters.
    That's actually interesting and it's nice to hear your opinion on the matter. I've never thought about culture being an aspect of comic that people would enjoy, but it does make sense in that it's something people can relate to.

  6. #6

    Default

    Honestly just cool concepts and characters.

    I rather avoid making more minorities legacy characters but I understand the business behind that. So I'd settle for them to stand out more and not feeling like rethreads of other characters.

  7. #7
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    8,451

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Honestly just cool concepts and characters.

    I rather avoid making more minorities legacy characters but I understand the business behind that. So I'd settle for them to stand out more and not feeling like rethreads of other characters.
    Well it's hard to do new ones when the new ones are hated even more than the legacy ones.


    Just don't do it like Marvel. Don't enter into the culture wars. Make good stories about superheroes and dark stories about anti-heroes/villians and Monsters.
    That was entitlement fans who wanted all POC to be like Cyborg & John Stewart. Guys that have NOTHING going for them beyond tokenism, background fodder and limited development.

    Moon Girl was NEVER about her race.
    Miles didn't do it aside from one comment.
    Cho Hulk teamed with Asians offended them. Meanwhile New Superman did the same thing to ZERO backlash.
    Excluding Sam Wilson & Nighthawk-race was not an issue in those books.
    Those crybabies never read the books that they bytched about. Sure some screamed looked at Milestone-did any of them READ the books?

    Static dealt with race, LGBTQ issues and other topics that would get it set on fire if it was a Marvel book.
    Blood Syndicate, Heroes & Shadow Cabinet featured LGBTQ members.
    They would have had strokes if they read Worlds Collide-with Superman, Steel & Superboy. Blood Syndicate handled up on Superman.

    The issue is no matter what is done-SOMEONE is going to take issue with it. Because they don't want to see it under the DC or Marvel banners.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member El_Gato's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    3,754

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    Hi. That was me. You've made a positive thread and sometimes I fear that its difficult for positive threads to gain traction.

    If I might though.

    After being in that thread for a while and thinking a lot about the topic.

    I think that Jaime Reyes blue beetle did it perfectly in his first arc, and then I lost track of the book but I did watch a series of Teen Titans in which he and the Reach were a big game topic.

    The last "new" book I bought was "Collider" I picked up 3 issues of it because the premise was interesting to me (a boy and his sentient black hole powering him) but I really dropped it because I didn't like
    the art style.
    Even though I'm black I really never look around and go "MAN I GOTTA PICK UP THIS NEW BLACK BOOK" I'm a reader so i'm looking for interesting Topics, Ideas, or takes on concept, as in my opinion all the stories have been
    told in an archetypal sense.

    You can tell every story that has been told with new characters, and do so in exiting ways, or you can pioneer newness and deal with inevitable comparisons.

    I'd not seen this but there was a Justice league cartoon with:
    Stargirl/Blue Bettle/ Firestrom
    There was an injustice God amoung us game with these scenes:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44L7x9rLmGI

    JLAction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXDVizim9jM

    As far as trinity level superheroes go? I'm checking for that team. They're not teen titans, they're not the JLA jr.
    They're a goddamn powerhouse trinity that need exploring.
    I'm checking for that.

    Hell I'd write that.

    As far as everything else that can be done? DC has had stubs of black and minority heroes planted here and there. They have a GUIDEBOOK how it could be done in the form of milestone comics.
    Jim Lee isn't drawing anything right now is he?
    Its not as hard as people make it out to be.

    Just don't do it like Marvel. Don't enter into the culture wars. Make good stories about superheroes and dark stories about anti-heroes/villians and Monsters.
    Don't use racist tropes/and don't try to get too preachy.
    Stoneyard. Lady Underground. Rush and Silence
    I'm checking for when Dc remembers these things
    I thought I was the only one who liked to pair those three together! I actually like that they pair up Jaime and Jason, since they debuted around the same time and faced the same amount of backlash. I think 14 years later, the definitive versions of Blue Beetle and Firestorm are a Latino and a Black guy... pretty cool to see they endured despite all the original backlash. Hopefully Ryan can catch up someday!

    I give props to DC animation, they’ve truly done more for minority DC characters than the comics (background characters mainly) and live action (they’d rather race swap) counterparts! John Stewart, Cyborg, Blue Beetle, Static, Katana, Jessica Cruz, Bumblebee...etc have animation to thank for their rise in popularity.
    Done with DC. Can't handle the constant whiplash! Time to go on a hiatus!

  9. #9
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    426

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    I thought I was the only one who liked to pair those three together! I actually like that they pair up Jaime and Jason, since they debuted around the same time and faced the same amount of backlash. I think 14 years later, the definitive versions of Blue Beetle and Firestorm are a Latino and a Black guy... pretty cool to see they endured despite all the original backlash. Hopefully Ryan can catch up someday!

    I give props to DC animation, they’ve truly done more for minority DC characters than the comics (background characters mainly) and live action (they’d rather race swap) counterparts! John Stewart, Cyborg, Blue Beetle, Static, Katana, Jessica Cruz, Bumblebee...etc have animation to thank for their rise in popularity.
    Yeah they have. Honestly it's a shame Justice League Action ended so early. I thought it was pretty good even if it wasn't like the Timmverse.

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    4,017

    Default

    Oh, now that I've talked about the culture that attracted me, I wanna talk about when it doesn't.

    New Super-Man. He's Chinese, I'm Chinese, but he started out as a bully, and continue to be kinda arrogant early on, so even though I love, love all the covers and variants that show them eating Chinese food or hanging out in Chinese old town, and I squealed when Chinese Wonder Woman was revealed to be Green Snake from White Snake Legend, the initial characterization is a turn-off. So characterization matters. Once he humbled down, I like him more.

    Cassandra Cain, and Damian Wayne. Despite them having a Chinese descent, they're not as drenched in the culture as New Superman or Kamala, but I like and interested in them more than the previous two because of two words:

    Ninja. Assassin.

    So this time it's more about the pop culture I already like since I was a kid. Ninjas are just cool. I love Snake Eyes, Storm Shadow, Kill Bill, Basilisk Ninja Scroll... No, I actually don't like Naruto that much. They are more like sorcerers than ninjas (a fun fact the author actually wanted to make a wizard story at first, which makes so much sense).

    Anyway! It's both the coolness that appeals to me and their attempt to be normal children. Lots of angst and adorableness to be found, by themselves and their interaction with others.

    I guess redemption story while still being cool and badass (and sometimes cuteness), like what Cassandra, Damian, Storm Shadow, Kill Bill, and Samurai X have (oh and Xena!) really appeals to me

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    3,421

    Default

    I think Restingvoice is onto something here. I know that G Willow Wilson in an interview about how Kamala Khan became a hit, and one of the pieces she mentioned there was a strong sense of place for the comics. Both the factors that Restingvoice takes up, and the depiction of New Jersey in the comic are part of that.

    What I think many people who try to force minority characters into comics is that it becomes surface deep, or only shows in story, but not in the setting. But the last one is arguably the most important piece to ground a character.

    That Kamala made herself blond was arguably one of the most interesting aspects of the comic, because it showed exactly how she (and other minority characters) can internalise a form of structural racism: this is what beauty looks like; conforming to the established ideal is easier and simpler than challenging or changing it.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  12. #12
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    988

    Default

    That was entitlement fans who wanted all POC to be like Cyborg & John Stewart. Guys that have NOTHING going for them beyond tokenism, background fodder and limited development.
    You're really uniformed about John Stewart it seems, you didn't read Mosaic or any of his storied history and there was a time both in the books, AND in the cartoons that he was the guy.
    For a while? It was Guy Gardner, for a while? It was Kyle Rainer. Today? Its the Lamplighter or whatever they're going with for her nowdays. I'm not going to get into a row with you over it but when you say things
    like this you sound either ignorant or dishonest to people who are in the know about comics and their history.
    Those crybabies never read the books that they bytched about. Sure some screamed looked at Milestone-did any of them READ the books?
    Sounds like you. You're the one who so boldy stated you don't buy dc books, and there's nothing they can do.
    Concerning Milestone. I did. I read all of those books. I was a kid they and they were get this on the shelf "In a supermarket"near where I lived.
    I was a kid and I bought Hardware and I have to say it was one of the most amazing things I'd seen in my young life... I WAS NOT READY FOR DEATHWISH and those scenes at that age, but home invasions weren't just a thing I saw on TV.
    I bought Blood Syndicate. I bought a few issues of Icon and I didn't like the "black martian manhunter" vibe I got from him. I'm one of the few people it looks like that didn't like Static Shock, but the book was good, but I was of the age that watched the superfriends and it hit me that "This is not black vulcan... wth?" Those were my tastes, and I'm thankful that I got to experience them first hand the way I did.
    That being said. When I say Look to MILESTONE for how to do thing like this... I happen to know what I'm talking about ... a big part of it is they did the work. They dare I say "CREATED" characters that are timeless and ahead of their time ever heard of Xombi, a korean nano-tech heroes who I came across before both Bloodshot AND Alex Mercer.
    None of these excuses about how hard it is to "Catch lightning in a bottle" like with Kamala Khan, find creators that want do the work, and have a story to tell.


    That being said I bought the entire run of Flash Point: The Outsider when it came out as well. He was from India and he was an AMAZING villain that I would have kept reading a solo of if they chose to continue it.

    https://theflash.fandom.com/wiki/The...Michael_Desai)

    He had a Doctor Doom swag and was just intriguing, and I felt like yeah... "this guys a big hitter" and they could have used that book to illustrate a lot of cultural capital from India today.
    Not that I need a comic book to teach me the culture of India... like AT ALL, but I would have BOUGHT that book and that background added to him and gave him flavor just like Latervia.
    The thing is the book focusing on Concepts, and STORY keeps your book from getting cancelled and forgotten about. Keeps your book from being looked at like a side show, and idiot things like:
    "Well its not FOR you" begin bandied about.
    Kamala works because while the family setting is about her being a muslim female in jersey ala her personal teen narrative (which is has different trapping but is hard for everyone)
    He heroic NARRATIVE is the same as every popular teen hero. Which is the heroes journey.
    Make NO MISTAKE she's walking the heroes journey, just like every other young hero we meet. Her story follows the same path as Jamie Reyes, and Robbie Reyes, Virgil Hawkins and Peter Parker...
    The Culture they set forth is current era dressing, but the trick to all of this is not turning people off for being Niche, and telling a unique variation on Tales as old as time. See my sig.
    So that's the first thing. Seeing that culture that's so rare to see in American media, is what attracts me to it. That's what makes me want to read it.
    So... do you feel the same way about Hispanic culture books? African-American based culture books? Aboriginal, based culture books? I'm not making an accusation here. So please don't take it that way.

    I'm trying to wrap my mind around what people are looking for/interested in/willing to spend money on, but sometimes it confusing, because... honestly Comic book heroes are supposed to represent
    Universal Ideals. I really liked Kenan Kong, at first I rolled my eyes like "Asian superman, wtf dc, Do you even Great 10 anymore" but I tried it, not cause it was familiar or Oooh those are my people!
    Not for voyeurism either, I wanted to see how they were tackling the subject: China wants/needs/has its own superman "GO".
    Turned out brilliant. Kenan Turned out to be understandable. Reckless youth gaining responsibility was a big part of his journey. Thats real and universal. Thats what mattered most to me, and why identified and empathized with
    him even thought he was culturally different.
    Last edited by Midnight_v; 11-24-2019 at 08:19 AM.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  13. #13
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    551

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    sometimes it confusing, because... honestly Comic book heroes are supposed to represent Universal Ideals..
    I dont see why. Paradax, Zenith, Watchmen etc were all pretty dreadful people but great books. Morrison's doom patrol - they were often the biggest threat themselves and couldnt even see what was going on under their own nose - but still a great book. Shade the changing man took the body of his soon to be girlfriend's partners killer - was dark and twisted book but also awesome.

    How many books does one need which represent some shifting notions of ideals - in the end its just identikit characters book after book.

  14. #14
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    905

    Default

    I'd probably make something like Dragon Knight, where the hero is a pervert who goes on absurd adventures and sleeps with all kinds of women, because no one really uses minority heroes for utterly shameless escapism, and they are rarely presented as sex symbols. They only reserve that for white characters like Bruce Wayne, Hal Jordan and so on.
    One of these days I'll do that, but it might be an indie game instead of a comic.


  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    5,216

    Default

    I think the primary reason some newer characters fail is because they're not attached to stories that have any consequence, and aren't given a truly great story that fleshes them out. The best way to establish a new character is to make them an important part of a memorable project with effort and originality behind it. I don't have the time now but I'm sure if we made a list of successful and unpopular new characters, whether or not they were introduced in a dramatic meaningful story would be a big factor. The character being a minority is small in comparison IMO.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •