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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knives View Post
    Although comparisons can be made between members biased for social differences, skin color or sexual choice and mutants there is a difference between them. In the marvel universe mutants will replace humans if something doesn't change it so humans' fear of mutants is not just ignorance. Prejudice-driven ignorants cannot create weapons of mass destruction and commit genocide only governments and scientists can.

    If one side will gradually be replaced by another quickly, it is possible that change will not create problems but if the change happens in decades or hundreds of years then there is a good chance that those to be replaced will try to avoid it by all available means .

    For some mutants are those who will end humanity.
    But that kind of bigoted thinking has rightfully been challenged in the past.

    Like, ok; say it is an evolutionary inevitability that mutants replace humanity...that doesn't have to be viewed as a bad thing! Much the same as, because autism is now thought to be a genetic inheritance (and I speak from experience here), it's over-taking of NT isn't the end of the world. It's just society moving on, it happens--especially considering that the diagnosis of autism is much more prevalent now than 10 years ago, even in adults 50+!

    Though it will face resistance, that doesn't mean that the attitude shouldn't be challenged, nor that it can't be changed. There'll probably always be an off-shoot hate-group (as you say, it's human nature) but that shouldn't negate progress, even in a theoretical manner!

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knives View Post
    The problem is not whether mutants or X-men can help humanity but whether humans want or will allow mutants to do so? It's not just about AvX, several heroes have already tried to transform the world around them to help humanity just to be rejected or failed due to human nature. This is because change is never easy and comes at a cost which many are not willing to pay.

    And it's not just mutants see for example Wakanda they could help to improve the human condition in many ways but due to human nature they prefer to take care of their own problems and the only time Wakanda tried to change that and offer help for other countries all they thought was about stealing their technology and their resources.

    Taking this to the real world considering how much food is wasted and the number of people starving in the world if all countries set aside their differences this problem would be solved. There is no limit to what humanity can achieve by working together, but we cannot do it for a variety of reasons.

    Strangely, humanity is capable of uniting against an enemy to the point of creating killer giant robots or atomic bombs but not so much as to end world hunger or end the fossil fuel dependence .


    And even if mutants could help why should they? Humans keep trying to kill them in all cruel ways.

    The drug Xavier gave them is just to buy time. This truce will not last and eventually when humanity no longer needs the drug they will not need to honor their agreement with the mutants.
    In regards to the bolded, that's because it's all about the elites in human society squabbling amongst themselves for total control of the planet's resources, and helping the downtrodden and less fortunate with said resources isn't as profitable (in the short-term, which is all most of them care about) as hoarding it all for themselves. That's true in real life, and as the MU is supposed to be "the world outside your window," albeit with superheroes and supervillains, that's reflected quite accurately by the comics. Again, why do you think Bruce Banner, a.k.a. the Immortal Hulk, wants to smash it all?
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Knives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    But that kind of bigoted thinking has rightfully been challenged in the past.

    Like, ok; say it is an evolutionary inevitability that mutants replace humanity...that doesn't have to be viewed as a bad thing! Much the same as, because autism is now thought to be a genetic inheritance (and I speak from experience here), it's over-taking of NT isn't the end of the world. It's just society moving on, it happens--especially considering that the diagnosis of autism is much more prevalent now than 10 years ago, even in adults 50+!

    Though it will face resistance, that doesn't mean that the attitude shouldn't be challenged, nor that it can't be changed. There'll probably always be an off-shoot hate-group (as you say, it's human nature) but that shouldn't negate progress, even in a theoretical manner!
    Prejudice is not the main problem for mutants it's just a symptom of a bigger problem. People like Reverend William Stryker or Purifiers can be dangerous and cause a lot of trouble but not at the level of Sentinels, Nimrods, X-gene Vaccines or Alien Toxic Clouds that can cause genocide of all mutant species and usually those who produce this type of weapon are governments, scientists or others with resources who believe mutants are a threat to humanity. So the comparison with autism in my opinion does not fit well with mutants.

    I will not say that it is impossible for both species to coexist but taking into account human history whenever a more advanced or powerful culture encounters a weaker one, the tendency is for the weaker to disappear or lose its autonomy by assimilating (if lucky) ). And even if coexistence is possible, it rarely happens without conflict before. Both in real life and in various stories is something that happens often.

  4. #19
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    Humans are the most invasive species on the planet. They need to be wiped out. Apocalypse and Moira took out the Avengers by themselves in life 9. With the full force of Krakoa it would be easy peasy.

    Kill a human, save an animal!

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knives View Post
    Prejudice is not the main problem for mutants it's just a symptom of a bigger problem. People like Reverend William Stryker or Purifiers can be dangerous and cause a lot of trouble but not at the level of Sentinels, Nimrods, X-gene Vaccines or Alien Toxic Clouds that can cause genocide of all mutant species and usually those who produce this type of weapon are governments, scientists or others with resources who believe mutants are a threat to humanity. So the comparison with autism in my opinion does not fit well with mutants.

    I will not say that it is impossible for both species to coexist but taking into account human history whenever a more advanced or powerful culture encounters a weaker one, the tendency is for the weaker to disappear or lose its autonomy by assimilating (if lucky) ). And even if coexistence is possible, it rarely happens without conflict before. Both in real life and in various stories is something that happens often.
    But weren't mutants also considered the weaker force here, if only narratively? Physical power does not equal political clout, after all, which put them in danger until the formation of Krakoa. The same can be said for any minority, including autistic and disabled. Say if we all did band together under one flag and cause and were able to put our in-fighting behind us...why wouldn't we want to help shape the world for the better, especially knowing that not all of us will be born the same?

    Take it as, say...say comparing power-sets in the mutant verse. Say comparing Ororo Munroe to Glob Herman. By comparison, Glob comes across as more 'human' if only by how you can say his power-set can be applied, similar to say an autistic persona and an NT--but then, he also has certain traits that Ororo doesn't necessarily possess and thus can't apply.

    It is similar to autism and NT's because, like mutant powers, autism isn't limited to one race, culture or civilisation; it can be anywhere and pose its' own unique strengths in addition to its' own debilitations.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Knives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    But weren't mutants also considered the weaker force here, if only narratively? Physical power does not equal political clout, after all, which put them in danger until the formation of Krakoa. The same can be said for any minority, including autistic and disabled. Say if we all did band together under one flag and cause and were able to put our in-fighting behind us...why wouldn't we want to help shape the world for the better, especially knowing that not all of us will be born the same?

    Take it as, say...say comparing power-sets in the mutant verse. Say comparing Ororo Munroe to Glob Herman. By comparison, Glob comes across as more 'human' if only by how you can say his power-set can be applied, similar to say an autistic persona and an NT--but then, he also has certain traits that Ororo doesn't necessarily possess and thus can't apply.

    It is similar to autism and NT's because, like mutant powers, autism isn't limited to one race, culture or civilisation; it can be anywhere and pose its' own unique strengths in addition to its' own debilitations.
    If I had to guess I would say that mutants have the power advantage of some individuals who alone could destroy the world but they have the numerical and technological disadvantage over humans which generated the new war narrative against machines and new human evolution through technology. Basically mutants have power but lack numbers and resources before humans.

    Social movements can change the course of humanity however these movements are erratic it is rarely possible to predict when and how they will happen or their outcome.

    From my point of view everyone likes underdogs and cheers for them. I wonder if would continue this way if the X-men were no longer underdogs? Isn't that the way we are going? From a group almost driven to extinction to a group that forges its own destiny apart from humanity?


    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    In regards to the bolded, that's because it's all about the elites in human society squabbling amongst themselves for total control of the planet's resources, and helping the downtrodden and less fortunate with said resources isn't as profitable (in the short-term, which is all most of them care about) as hoarding it all for themselves. That's true in real life, and as the MU is supposed to be "the world outside your window," albeit with superheroes and supervillains, that's reflected quite accurately by the comics. Again, why do you think Bruce Banner, a.k.a. the Immortal Hulk, wants to smash it all?
    I agree but to be fair it is not easy for you to trust someone you do not know or who has been your enemy for years. And the average human being is not strong enough to do anything about it even if the truth is in his face.

    Basically if resources are not enough for everyone it is virtually instinctive that you try to take control of most of yourself or your group.

    Capitalism is just the only system that works with humanity today, but that does not mean that we cannot do or create anything better in the future.
    Last edited by Knives; 11-23-2019 at 07:06 PM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knives View Post
    If I had to guess I would say that mutants have the power advantage of some individuals who alone could destroy the world but they have the numerical and technological disadvantage over humans which generated the new war narrative against machines and new human evolution through technology. Basically mutants have power but lack numbers and resources before humans.

    Social movements can change the course of humanity however these movements are erratic it is rarely possible to predict when and how they will happen or their outcome.

    From my point of view everyone likes underdogs and cheers for them. I wonder if would continue this way if the X-men were no longer underdogs? Isn't that the way we are going? From a group almost driven to extinction to a group that forges its own destiny apart from humanity?




    I agree but to be fair it is not easy for you to trust someone you do not know or who has been your enemy for years. And the average human being is not strong enough to do anything about it even if the truth is in his face.

    Basically if resources are not enough for everyone it is virtually instinctive that you try to take control of most of yourself or your group.

    Capitalism is just the only system that works with humanity today, but that does not mean that we cannot do or create anything better in the future.
    Sadly, we may very well not have a future if things keep going the way they have been and currently are. Also, there are more than enough resources for everyone; we just have a few who've been hoarding the most of those resources for themselves and refusing to share with the rest. That's where the scarcity is really coming from. Yes, I do see your point that the average human being in real life isn't strong enough to do anything about it, which is why I'm more inclined to sympathize with Bruce Banner/Immortal Hulk as of the more recent issues, because he is "the strongest there is" and is aiming to use that strength to do something substantial about the corruption in human society.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan Daddy View Post
    Humans are the most invasive species on the planet. They need to be wiped out. Apocalypse and Moira took out the Avengers by themselves in life 9. With the full force of Krakoa it would be easy peasy.

    Kill a human, save an animal!
    In both fiction and reality, it would make sense for a more evolved species to want to wipe out humans, or at least contain us, since we're too much of a destructive force. And they'd probably find a place in their ethos to justify it, just like we already justify what we do to animals and plants. Or what Europeans did to justify what was made to native-americans.

    It's a nice conundrum we got ourselves into the moment we decided we should rule the planet, isn't it. Makes it hard to reject the current stance of the X-Men if it was as baffling as some more sensitive posters make it sound.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knives View Post
    From my point of view everyone likes underdogs and cheers for them. I wonder if would continue this way if the X-men were no longer underdogs? Isn't that the way we are going? From a group almost driven to extinction to a group that forges its own destiny apart from humanity?
    Honestly, no, I don't think so. From my experience, it isn't until said underdog does something that warrants criticism, such as causing harm to others, that public consensus on them changes. Such as now; readers such as myself can't quite gauge what it meant by some language Hickman uses when referring to 'man' or 'humanity,' as in whether it's meant to be some sort of hyperbole (which I have to say makes no sense, because why be mean to a group of people if you don't mean it?) or is genuine, divisive language.

    This is where some criticism is coming from; the apparent lack of empathy or compassion, especially concerned to past relationships or friendships. It's jarring.

  10. #25
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    This question is simply answered because the fiction doesn't allow it. The same way the fiction does allow Reed and Tony to fix everything.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    This question is simply answered because the fiction doesn't allow it. The same way the fiction does allow Reed and Tony to fix everything.
    Pretty much. Status quo is the bread and butter of comics. Between all the geniuses on the Avengers alone most of the world’s problems in the MU could be solved, but if that happens there isn’t a lot of story to tell.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member useridgoeshere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knives View Post
    From my point of view everyone likes underdogs and cheers for them. I wonder if would continue this way if the X-men were no longer underdogs? Isn't that the way we are going? From a group almost driven to extinction to a group that forges its own destiny apart from humanity?
    I disagree. People cheer for people like themselves and ultimately, do nothing to actually help true underdogs. They might put an underdog label on it, but look at all the underdogs in the world who are targeted and oppressed. No one is cheering for them. And look at all the wealthy privileged people and companies that claim underdog status.

    In terms of the X-Men, what’s emerged here is that there are fans who like Mutants as struggling second class citizens, fighting for the majority and getting nothing in return. They like them not expressing a Mutant identity in any other way than using powers. That’s not cheering for the underdog.

  13. #28
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    From what we have seen, Krakoa is capable of terraforming such inhospitable places as the Moon or Mars. And we all know what radioactivity does to Krakoa: Nothing.

    Mutants do not have to worry that humans are destroying Earth because they can always repair what they want later while Krakoa survives.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan Daddy View Post
    Humans are the most invasive species on the planet. They need to be wiped out. Apocalypse and Moira took out the Avengers by themselves in life 9. With the full force of Krakoa it would be easy peasy.

    Kill a human, save an animal!
    Mutant and Proud
    Krakoa FOREVER!!!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    This question is simply answered because the fiction doesn't allow it. The same way the fiction does allow Reed and Tony to fix everything.
    Pretty much. Storm or Iceman could probably single-handedly deal with climate change. (Ok Bobby, just hang out in Antarctica for a few days every couple of years and freeze the polar ice-shelves down another couple meters, lowering the oceans gradually by a couple of centimeters each day as you progress...)

    Ilyanna single-handedly handles pollution / waste disposal by shunting it all to Limbo (or just portals it into space, to fall into the sun). (Not that a dozen other mutants couldn't do similar things, like physically or telekinetically hurling it into space to fall into the sun, incinerating it, tunneling down to the molten core of the Earth for Petra, or transmuting it for someone like Alchemy.)

    What's relevant is that the mutants live on the planet, too. They wouldn't be cleaning up humanity's messes *for humanity's benefit,* necessarily, but for themselves and their own next generations, which could be a bitter pill to swallow for mankind.

    "Yeah, Storm just fixed global climate change. Because the high tides that were destroying cities like Venice and Miami, were also annoying her on Krakoa... The fact that she just saved us trillions in relocation costs is like, eh, a side-effect. She said, 'I didn't stop my house from burning down for the convenience of the mice living in the attic. I did it for me!'"

    But they'd never be allowed to change the world any more than Forge or Stark or Pym or Richards or Doom will be allowed to invent something that actually matters, or the existence of Asgard or Atlantis or Attilan or various alien races or the Savage Land or Wakanda will be allowed to change the world or society or make the world less recognizable to the reader in any significant way.

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