Could Nightwing beat Batman 5/10?

[Valentonis]

Post-crisis, standard equipment, fight takes place on some rooftop.

Saw this question on another forum and was curious to see this board's take. If the answer is no, what are Dick's next best odds?

[The Arbiter]

Nightwing is like a tiny smidge better at back flips, cartwheels and all things bouncy and fun. I'm talking general agility.

That's kinda his /only/ advantage. Everywhere else he is generally portrayed as either very similar or slightly worse the Bruce.

With standard equipment, I can see Dick taking a few rounds, especially in an Arena setting, but would hesitate to say his odds were 50%.

[Nine Crocodile]

Batman has punched out a Flash coming at him at high speeds. Unless we can find a similar example for Nightwing, the argument becomes that Bruce can move in bullet-time and Dick can't.

[Pendaran]

Batman has punched out a Flash coming at him at high speeds. Unless we can find a similar example for Nightwing, the argument becomes that Bruce can move in bullet-time and Dick can't.

A Flash coming in at high speeds and Batman hitting them anyway would mean Batman is somewhere between lightspeed and ftl.

Or: Batman hitting speedsters is part of why discarding feats that require plot induced stupidity (i.e. a given Flash conveniently forgetting that their reflex time is at bare minimum repeatedly demonstrated as being near the speed of light at the very least, so that someone who is no such thing can hit them) to happen is a thing here.

Unless this was a really, really, really degraded version of the Flash, I guess.

[Nine Crocodile]

A Flash coming in at high speeds and Batman hitting them anyway would mean Batman is somewhere between lightspeed and ftl.

Or: Batman hitting speedsters is part of why discarding feats that require plot induced stupidity (i.e. a given Flash conveniently forgetting that their reflex time is at bare minimum repeatedly demonstrated as being near the speed of light at the very least, so that someone who is no such thing can hit them) to happen is a thing here.

Unless this was a really, really, really degraded version of the Flash, I guess.

This Flash was under Poison Ivy's control, so I am assuming he was not moving at full speed or using full reflexes. Still, it's there.

The idea that some things can be removed from consideration because they are examples of "plot stupidity" but others can't is so random that it nullifies the point of all this.

I *want* Dick to be able to beat Bruce at least half the time - I'd love to use the fight in the last issue of the last volume of Nightwing as an example - but I can't, based on how this works.

[Pendaran]

This Flash was under Poison Ivy's control, so I am assuming he was not moving at full speed or using full reflexes. Still, it's there.

The idea that some things can be removed from consideration because they are examples of "plot stupidity" but others can't is so random that it nullifies the point of all this.

I *want* Dick to be able to beat Bruce at least half the time - I'd love to use the fight in the last issue of the last volume of Nightwing as an example - but I can't, based on how this works.

So basically a mind controlled Flash operating below capacity shows Bruce can move in bullet time? How much slower was he going according to you?

The idea that some things can be removed from consideration because they are examples of "plot stupidity" but others can't is so random that it nullifies the point of all this.

It's not really all that random at all. The Flash as part of his power set again and again shows he can operate at, at bare minimum, near the speed of light. Someone hitting him, for him not to dodge, would have to be able to do similar. Otherwise the Flash's powers, such as they are, are being ignored so that a particular story beat can happen. That's certainly how comics tells most of its stories but it doesn't mean it's worth anything when trying to talk about something like "how fast" a character's reflexes are. If you want to talk about characters like their abilities are anything but pure narrative contrivance of what a given story/writer wants to happen in any moment, then you're stuck with that problem. If a given performance can show Batman's "bullet time reflexes", then you crash into "then the other character has their abilities too, therefore how was that even possible?"

For example "I assume the Flash was going slower" Okay, how much slower? "As slow as would let me claim this shows Batman operating at the speed I want to claim he can operate at." That's itself extremely arbitrary but that's basically all your argument boils down to.

You say Flash was going "bullet time" speeds. Anything showing that other than you wanting that to be the speeds he was going at?

I *want* Dick to be able to beat Bruce at least half the time - I'd love to use the fight in the last issue of the last volume of Nightwing as an example - but I can't, based on how this works.

Here's how it works on the board:

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ules-and-FAQs)

Part of why we developed that stuff is because without it, you get things like "the Flash was going just slow enough, though I can't show this for anything, that it counts for demonstrating exactly what I want to say about it, because otherwise it would mean that if we're talking as though we're having to acknowledge that the Flash actually has the powers he has, it wouldn't be possible."

[Pendaran]

I mean if we're otherwise doing this by the "it counts because it happened and it shows exactly what I want it to, no matter the abilities of the people involved" standard, Nightwing has managed to catch a speeding around Wally West of all people in a thrown batarang rope tie thing. How fast does that make him? If you want to say "well that shouldn't count", that doesn't really work with your standards for anything so far.

[Nine Crocodile]

So basically a mind controlled Flash operating below capacity shows Bruce can move in bullet time? How much slower was he going according to you?

I don't know, and you know I don't know, because the creative teams don't fill in that kind of detail.

Anyway, I want to thank you for clarifying how the board works. I appreciate it.

[Nine Crocodile]

I mean if we're otherwise doing this by the "it counts because it happened and it shows exactly what I want it to, no matter the abilities of the people involved" standard, Nightwing has managed to catch a speeding around Wally West of all people in a thrown batarang rope tie thing. How fast does that make him? If you want to say "well that shouldn't count", that doesn't really work with your standards for anything so far.

Hey, if you've got evidence of something like that, I'd love to see it. Because you seem to be misunderstanding me here. I want evidence of Dick being ablr to go toe-to-toe with Bruce.

[Pendaran]

I don't know, and you know I don't know, because the creative teams don't fill in that kind of detail.

Anyway, I want to thank you for clarifying how the board works. I appreciate it.

If you don't know and I don't know, how does that make Batman "bullet time"?

[Pendaran]

Hey, if you've got evidence of something like that, I'd love to see it. Because you seem to be misunderstanding me here. I want evidence of Dick being ablr to go toe-to-toe with Bruce.

It's not evidence of anything but Dick also getting to job out Flashes. It happened all the same:

https://imgur.com/a/0Cfs0As

https://imgur.com/a/ycdo2ZL

Wally's not even impaired/mind controlled. Roped up anyway despite being a guy who has acute enough reaction and perception time to perceive and react within nanoseconds, to pick out just one of a variety of examples of Flash's capacity by contrast.

Like Batman hitting a Flash, it's not worth much of anything here.

[TerryAce]

Also, being fair, Bruce's Flash punch was Ivy controlling Barry to take the hit for the ALSO controlled Alfred. That's less a Bruce feat than an Ivy one.

[Jonathan]

Nightwing is probably a little more agile, but not nearly to the same extent that Batman is stronger and tougher.

[Pendaran]

Anyway as far as the actual fight itself, I can't really see Nightwing taking 5/10. He could take a few, but not that many.

[Shellhead]

Compared to Bruce, Dick only has an advantage at acrobatics, long-term relationships, and maybe leadership. In a straight fight, Batman is smarter, stronger, faster, tougher, and has a reach advantage.

Random thought: Has Dick ever had a real job, or has he been getting an allowance from Bruce all these years?