Who are Marvel's "Big Three"?

[capandkirby]

I love the fact that Cap's a "commie smasher!" now. I doubt that they would have even gone forward with the FF had the other three been making money at the time. They already had a Human Torch, after all. They didn't need another one. This would have taken the MU in a whole different direction.

"Commie smasher" only because of the Comics Code of Authority, which pretty much spelled the ruination of all comics during that time period. Keep in mind during this same time period Diana Prince got depowered and demoted to the lofty career of secretary (no insult to administrative staff, I appreciate all you do and I do realize your job comes with its fair share of difficulties). It wasn't so much that they characters themselves no longer had interesting stories in them (as evident today by the fact that Cap, Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, all Golden Age characters, still sell well), but rather the fault of Fredric Wertham being a total wrack job who had 1950's America convinced that comics were after their children's souls and ate all their morals for breakfast.

We all owe a lot to Stan Lee coming in and not really giving a flying @#$% about any of that and doing what he wanted anyway. But I do wonder what a world where Wertham didn't publish Seduction of the Innocent would be like and Cap, Jim Hammand and Namor were allowed free reign in the 1950's instead of having their wings rather brutally cut. I'm sure all modern day heroes would still exist along with Cap, Jim and Namor, a great idea is a great idea, it's not like Marvel only allows three heroes at a time, it's not like there's a quota, but the comics published in the 1950's would certainly be less embarrassing. Pretty sure the only character who would no longer be needed (to exist) in that scenario would be William Burnside.

After all, the entire reason Lee brought Cap back was because he posed that exact question to the Marvel readership in F4 in the 60's, 'do you want to see Cap brought back?' The answer, from the reader-base, was a resounding YES. So the demand was there, what happened in the 50's had less to do with the characters themselves and more to do with forces outside their control. Censorship, frankly.

[superduperman]

"Commie smasher" only because of the Comics Code of Authority, which pretty much spelled the ruination of all comics during that time period. Keep in mind during this same time period Diana Prince got depowered and demoted to the lofty career of secretary (no insult to administrative staff, I appreciate all you do and I do realize your job comes with its fair share of difficulties). It wasn't so much that they characters themselves no longer had interesting stories in them (as evident today by the fact that Cap, Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, all Golden Age characters, still sell well), but rather the fault of Fredric Wertham being a total wrack job who had 1950's America convinced that comics were after their children's souls and ate all their morals for breakfast.

We all owe a lot to Stan Lee coming in and not really giving a flying @#$% about any of that and doing what he wanted anyway. But I do wonder what a world where Wertham didn't publish Seduction of the Innocent would be like and Cap, Jim Hammand and Namor were allowed free reign in the 1950's instead of having their wings rather brutally cut. I'm sure all modern day heroes would still exist along with Cap, Jim and Namor, a great idea is a great idea, it's not like Marvel only allows three heroes at a time, it's not like there's a quota, but the comics published in the 1950's would certainly be less embarrassing. Pretty sure the only character who would no longer be needed (to exist) in that scenario would be William Burnside.

After all, the entire reason Lee brought Cap back was because he posed that exact question to the Marvel readership in F4 in the 60's, 'do you want to see Cap brought back?' The answer, from the reader-base, was a resounding YES. So the demand was there, what happened in the 50's had less to do with the characters themselves and more to do with forces outside their control. Censorship, frankly.

Wasn't there a Captain America comic that had his name on it but he wasn't even in it? Some kind of horror comic? It's been a long time since I read about it but I recall that this was during the period when super-heroes were in decline. My understanding of the early fifties was that horror and crime comics were the most popular and super-heroes were in severe decline. Even DC only got the "big three" label because they were the only ones still selling. Everyone else got cancelled. Green Arrow and Aquaman only survived because they were back up features in Batman and Superman. I know that Cap went after Russians because that was what was popular at the time and it was later reconned it wasn't really him but some replacement that was turned insane by the super-soldier formula or something like that.

[phantom1592]

I know that Cap went after Russians because that was what was popular at the time and it was later reconned it wasn't really him but some replacement that was turned insane by the super-soldier formula or something like that.

Exaclty... when the Nazis lost the war... the Commies took the #1 spot for political heroes to punch in the face. Not sure what the CCA would have to do with that.

[capandkirby]

Wasn't there a Captain America comic that had his name on it but he wasn't even in it? Some kind of horror comic? It's been a long time since I read about it but I recall that this was during the period when super-heroes were in decline. My understanding of the early fifties was that horror and crime comics were the most popular and super-heroes were in severe decline. Even DC only got the "big three" label because they were the only ones still selling. Everyone else got cancelled. Green Arrow and Aquaman only survived because they were back up features in Batman and Superman. I know that Cap went after Russians because that was what was popular at the time and it was later reconned it wasn't really him but some replacement that was turned insane by the super-soldier formula or something like that.

Yes. The name you’re looking for is William Burnside. He was the 1950’s Cap replacement. Which is why I stated he probably wouldn’t exist if the Golden Age characters had been allowed to thrive.

Exaclty... when the Nazis lost the war... the Commies took the #1 spot for political heroes to punch in the face. Not sure what the CCA would have to do with that.

You answered your own question. The political sentiment at the time, re: the Red Scare, was exactly as you described. And these are some of the rules of the CCA I copied and pasted:

Crimes shall never be presented in such a way as to create sympathy for the criminal, to promote distrust of the forces of law and justice, or to inspire others with a desire to imitate criminals.
If crime is depicted it shall be as a sordid and unpleasant activity.
Policemen, judges, government officials, and respected institutions shall never be presented in such a way as to create disrespect for established authority.
Criminals shall not be presented so as to be rendered glamorous or to occupy a position which creates a desire for emulation.
In every instance good shall triumph over evil and the criminal punished for his misdeeds.

Kinda took the choice away from writers to write Cap or anyone in any way that contradicted the Red Scare or anyone in a position of authority. Either write superheroes as 100% in-step with current government leadership/beliefs, or be accused of warping young minds (and probably accused of communism, yourself). Naturally this had an impact on how stories were presented and naturally readers at the time would hate it because it contradicts what the heroes were created to represent. Cap especially, who was created before America joined the war as a political protest. America was in a state of isolationism. Simon and Kirby were going AGAINST the grain when they created Cap. He wasn’t meant to be a government stooge and doesn’t work as one.

[phantom1592]

Yes. The name you’re looking for is William Burnside. He was the 1950’s Cap replacement. Which is why I stated he probably wouldn’t exist if the Golden Age characters had been allowed to thrive.



You answered your own question. The political sentiment at the time, re: the Red Scare, was exactly as you described. And these are some of the rules of the CCA I copied and pasted:



Kinda took the choice away from writers to write Cap or anyone in any way that contradicted the Red Scare or anyone in a position of authority. Either write superheroes as 100% in-step with current government leadership/beliefs, or be accused of warping young minds (and probably accused of communism, yourself). Naturally this had an impact on how stories were presented and naturally readers at the time would hate it because it contradicts what the heroes were created to represent. Cap especially, who was created before America joined the war as a political protest. America was in a state of isolationism. Simon and Kirby were going AGAINST the grain when they created Cap. He wasn’t meant to be a government stooge and doesn’t work as one.

Meh... as far as I've read, (though I admit my golden age marvel is spotty) Cap was always under orders and following commands from the government. it wasn't so much the america that existed... but the one that Simon and Kirby felt SHOULD be... but he was the hero and respectful for the president and supporter of the soldiers. He wasn't really the type to flip off the government just because he wasn't 'a stooge'.

He was created for WWII. Once that was ended they COULD have gone a lot of different directions with the character. Fighting supervillains, gangsters, mafia... he was 'human' enough that he could have filled in for any of those private eye stories that became popular... but they took the easy route and just switched Nazi with Commie. But there were a lot of things that Cap could do inside the CCA. It didn't outright dictate teh only stories he could tell.

[The no face guy]

Well recently the big merchandise mover has of course been the Avengers but traditionally,

1) Spiderman
2) The Hulk
3) Wolverine

Marvel's popularity seems to fluctuate a lot more than DC that tends to remain static. I remember when I was little the Fantastic Four were popular, and than the X-Men were the biggest thing for the longest time. So has Captain America or Iron Man surpassed the three above....? Couldn't tell you.

[capandkirby]

Meh... as far as I've read, (though I admit my golden age marvel is spotty) Cap was always under orders and following commands from the government. it wasn't so much the america that existed... but the one that Simon and Kirby felt SHOULD be... but he was the hero and respectful for the president and supporter of the soldiers. He wasn't really the type to flip off the government just because he wasn't 'a stooge'.

He was created for WWII. Once that was ended they COULD have gone a lot of different directions with the character. Fighting supervillains, gangsters, mafia... he was 'human' enough that he could have filled in for any of those private eye stories that became popular... but they took the easy route and just switched Nazi with Commie. But there were a lot of things that Cap could do inside the CCA. It didn't outright dictate teh only stories he could tell.

Was he respectful of the president? Sure. But the president was depicted/written as someone who secretly joined the war far before the US actually did (thus a rebel himself). Was he a hero? Also yes. Did he cheerfully act the dutiful soldier who just followed orders? Oh good lord no. LOL. Quite the opposite. In the early Simon and Kirby stuff the Army was actually a cover for Steve. He pretended to be a bumbling, incompetent private by day (and he really hammed that role up, too, he loved it, he was already fully trained as Cap at the time, so he enjoyed tormenting his ‘superiors’ in the army by acting like the worst possible recruit he could be) and would be Captain America by night. His relationship with General Philips was such where he’d put itching powder in the General’s coat when he wasn’t looking (this actually happened on panel). The General was originally written as the sort of authority figure so obtuse and drunk on his power that he had no idea Steve (and Bucky) were going out at night and squaring off against Hitler right under his nose.

Most of the above would have gone against the CCA rules. Portraying army generals as kinda dumb. Portraying Steve be a prankster and frankly a sarcastic little sh*#(in a delightful, fun way). Even the ‘cases’ Steve took, some of which he stumbled on by being at the right place at the right time and weren’t directed by the president, Steve winged it. All against the rules outlined by the CCA. Simon and Kirby’s Steve Rogers was so different from how he was was written in the 1950’s that they might as well have been different characters. Which is was made Steve Englehart’s retcon regarding William Burnside entirely believable.

So yes, the CCA almost ruined comics. And superhero comics especially. I stand by my claim. I wasn’t trying to say that superheroes couldn’t not be written inside the CCA, they obviously were, but they were made lesser for it and therein uninteresting to the readership.

[Steel Inquisitor]

You answered your own question. The political sentiment at the time, re: the Red Scare, was exactly as you described. And these are some of the rules of the CCA I copied and pasted:



Kinda took the choice away from writers to write Cap or anyone in any way that contradicted the Red Scare or anyone in a position of authority. Either write superheroes as 100% in-step with current government leadership/beliefs, or be accused of warping young minds (and probably accused of communism, yourself). Naturally this had an impact on how stories were presented and naturally readers at the time would hate it because it contradicts what the heroes were created to represent. Cap especially, who was created before America joined the war as a political protest. America was in a state of isolationism. Simon and Kirby were going AGAINST the grain when they created Cap. He wasn’t meant to be a government stooge and doesn’t work as one.

It was a war, and the Communists were the chief adversary for the United States. Reducing it to "Red Scare" nonsense ignores the context. I'm talking about the war itself, the CCA was a disaster who wanted American propaganda and nothing more.

Cap can work for the government fine, he's not MCU Cap.

[capandkirby]

It was a war, and the Communists were the chief adversary for the United States. Reducing it to "Red Scare" nonsense ignores the context. I'm talking about the war itself, the CCA was a disaster who wanted American propaganda and nothing more.

Cap can work for the government fine, he's not MCU Cap.

As someone who has been reading the Cap comics since Gruenwald was writing him (1985-1996) I'm WELL aware of the differences between the MCU portrayal and the comics. But it is clear to me, with that last statement you made, that YOU aren't.

Here's a refresher of how well Steve works with the government (otherwise known as Steve Rogers' greatest hits in telling the government to @#$% off):

Englehart (Nomad: Man Without a Country story arc):



Gruenwald (Captain America No More story arc):



Millar (Civil War story arc):



And, if not for the three image limit I could post panels far more recent than the above. He basically told the American government, through Ross, in the current Avengers run under Jason Aaron that he doesn't work for them and that the Avengers do not belong to any one country and refuse to be the US government's lapdogs.

So, CAN Steve work with the government? Yes. Does he like to? No. Does he do well in that role? Also no. You're confusing Steve with John Walker. Moreover, readers like it better when Steve beats to his own drum, thus the reason no one liked the 1950's portrayal. The above stories (Englehart, Gruenwald, etc.) are considered some of Cap's greatest hits. There is a reason for that.

[phantom1592]

As someone who has been reading the Cap comics since Gruenwald was writing him (1985-1996) I'm WELL aware of the differences between the MCU portrayal and the comics. But it is clear to me, with that last statement you made, that YOU aren't.

Here's a refresher of how well Steve works with the government (otherwise known as Steve Rogers' greatest hits in telling the government to @#$% off):


And, if not for the three image limit I could post panels far more recent than the above. He basically told the American government, through Ross, in the current Avengers run under Jason Aaron that he doesn't work for them and that the Avengers do not belong to any one country and refuse to be the US government's lapdogs.

So, CAN Steve work with the government? Yes. Does he like to? No. Does he do well in that role? Also no. You're confusing Steve with John Walker. Moreover, readers like it better when Steve beats to his own drum, thus the reason no one liked the 1950's portrayal. The above stories (Englehart, Gruenwald, etc.) are considered some of Cap's greatest hits. There is a reason for that.

CCA was still a thing during at least Gruenwald and englehart. I'd have to check for Millar... i think they had abandoned it by then....

[capandkirby]

CCA was still a thing during at least Gruenwald and englehart. I'd have to check for Millar... i think they had abandoned it by then....

In name only. For show. Stan Lee started ignoring it when he became EIC and no one else really followed it after him. As evident by the Gruenwald and Englehart panels. Cap was disagreeing with authority, which was explicitly against the rules of the CCA. It’s influence over comics was mostly left in the 50’s. Thank goodness.

[Steel Inquisitor]

As someone who has been reading the Cap comics since Gruenwald was writing him (1985-1996) I'm WELL aware of the differences between the MCU portrayal and the comics. But it is clear to me, with that last statement you made, that YOU aren't.

Here's a refresher of how well Steve works with the government (otherwise known as Steve Rogers' greatest hits in telling the government to @#$% off):

Englehart (Nomad: Man Without a Country story arc):



Gruenwald (Captain America No More story arc):



Millar (Civil War story arc):



And, if not for the three image limit I could post panels far more recent than the above. He basically told the American government, through Ross, in the current Avengers run under Jason Aaron that he doesn't work for them and that the Avengers do not belong to any one country and refuse to be the US government's lapdogs.

So, CAN Steve work with the government? Yes. Does he like to? No. Does he do well in that role? Also no. You're confusing Steve with John Walker. Moreover, readers like it better when Steve beats to his own drum, thus the reason no one liked the 1950's portrayal. The above stories (Englehart, Gruenwald, etc.) are considered some of Cap's greatest hits. There is a reason for that.

Englehart was in 1974. Cap rotates on and off with the government, its got nothing to do with John Walker. Rogers was a SHIELD operative in Brubaker's run, after Osborn was defeated the president made him the head of security, during "Time Runs Out" the Avengers fell under SHIELD authority with him leading it.

The Avengers has been a government institution forever and he leads it without blinking, too. United Nations certified.

[capandkirby]

Englehart was in 1974. Cap rotates on and off with the government, its got nothing to do with John Walker. Rogers was a SHIELD operative in Brubaker's run, after Osborn was defeated the president made him the head of security, during "Time Runs Out" the Avengers fell under SHIELD authority with him leading it.

The Avengers has been a government institution forever and he leads it without blinking, too. United Nations certified.

You obviously haven’t read Cap either. Why are people who have obviously not done the reading arguing with me?! JFC. Do you always pick arguments on subjects you know little to nothing about?! Is this a habit for you?! You MUST be trolling me, because there’s no way you just said what you just said and were serious about it. John Walker was created by Mark Gruenwald specifically for the Captain America No More arc, which I posted a page of above!!! “That’s got nothing to do with Walker”, are you serious with that?! Gruenwald, through his own statements, invented Walker to exhibit “the dark side of patriotism”. John Walker was meant to be a direct contrast to Steve Rogers. Wherein Steve refused to be a government stooge, who followed orders, Walker was handpicked by the government to be their quintessential soldier/patriot.

Here’s an interview with Gruenwald where he says all of this (though you wouldn’t need the interview if you’d actually read the freakin comics!!!!)...



And what the Avengers were (they no longer are) was a non-State actor, a real life equivalent would be like Red Cross or Amnesty International. That’s slightly different than ‘working for the government’. It’s more... contracted. Look it up.

And do me a favor? Actually read a Cap comic before responding to me. Thanks.

[Steel Inquisitor]

You obviously haven’t read Cap either. Why are people who have obviously not done the reading arguing with me?! JFC. Do you always pick arguments on subjects you know little to nothing about?! Is this a habit for you?! You MUST be trolling me, because there’s no way you just said what you just said and were serious about it. John Walker was created by Mark Gruenwald specifically for the Captain America No More arc, which I posted a page of above!!! “That’s got nothing to do with Walker”, are you serious with that?! Gruenwald, through his own statements, invented Walker to exhibit “the dark side of patriotism”. John Walker was meant to be a direct contrast to Steve Rogers. Wherein Steve refused to be a government stooge, who followed orders, Walker was handpicked by the government to be their quintessential soldier/patriot.

Here’s an interview with Gruenwald where he says all of this (though you wouldn’t need the interview if you’d actually read the freakin comics!!!!)...

You're not telling me what I don't know. Cap is more than Gruenwald, he didn't stop working for any government agency after the 70's I've given examples from modern comics where he does this. Rogers was the director of SHIELD and a long term SHIELD operative, like in Bru's run, long after Gruenwald left the title. Gruenwald had a lengthy and influential run on the title, but he isn't the sole defining Captain America in 616. Did you read Brubaker's run? They're good comics. Those comics don't disappear because you think Rogers stopped working for the government after the 70's.

My comment was about Cap's service in the government, post-Gruenwald, had nothing to do with Walker. Nothing about Walker himself, being a dark reflection of what Cap could be. That's blatantly obvious and has nothing to do with what I was discussing.

And what the Avengers were (they no longer are) was a non-State actor, a real life equivalent would be like Red Cross or Amnesty International. That’s slightly different than ‘working for the government’. It’s more... contracted. Look it up.

The Red Cross don't have them sticking pencil pushes, like Henry Gyrich, into powerful positions in the organisation and heavily impacting how its run. Being contracted is still working for them. They work with the government, they have a long history of not being free agents.

And do me a favor? Actually read a Cap comic before responding to me. Thanks.

I've read years of Cap and Avengers comics.

[Triniking1234]

Technically the Avengers are privately-owned entity but their work requires them to be sanctioned by the American government in order to operate inside the law.