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  1. #31
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Cyborg should be the mix of Oracle and Q for the Justice League, building the necessary technology for Leaguers and gathering intel.
    I think thats a big part of his problem. People looking as if he's broken god Hephaestus/Vulcan. Problem with Q... and Oracle... and Heph... they're not the ones going on adventures.

    Conceptually this is what I'm against. It why sometimes I refer to him and really... on a similar vein for many years as. Justice Leagues "Butler".

    It would be nice to get a design space away from being "Q" and "Oracle" in which he fulfills the role of tony starks jarvis program from the movie...

    If we can't get Cyborg fighting superman ala Genos vs Saitama....

    Then off the top of my head I see Angela Spica being the same but wildly more interesting and capable, when I shouldn't be that way if hes an integrated mother box.

    He also could stand for some impressive physical showings in fights, and his rogues gallery could be more defined gleaned from quite a few people already existing or made whole cloth.

    Someone who is:

    A primal force of rage, or nature: Doomsday, Hulk, Nameless Titan or Monster.
    Tech/Alien Guys: Amazo, The New Leviathan (which any espionage group would want him for his surveillance)
    Deity Figures: Likewise anyone who covets the powers of the new Gods. Or understands him as a the planet tipping weapon that he could be.

    *shrug* but in the end he looks pretty low tech.
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  2. #32
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    I think thats a big part of his problem. People looking as if he's broken god Hephaestus/Vulcan. Problem with Q... and Oracle... and Heph... they're not the ones going on adventures.

    Conceptually this is what I'm against. It why sometimes I refer to him and really... on a similar vein for many years as. Justice Leagues "Butler".

    It would be nice to get a design space away from being "Q" and "Oracle" in which he fulfills the role of tony starks jarvis program from the movie...

    If we can't get Cyborg fighting superman ala Genos vs Saitama....

    Then off the top of my head I see Angela Spica being the same but wildly more interesting and capable, when I shouldn't be that way if hes an integrated mother box.

    He also could stand for some impressive physical showings in fights, and his rogues gallery could be more defined gleaned from quite a few people already existing or made whole cloth.

    Someone who is:

    A primal force of rage, or nature: Doomsday, Hulk, Nameless Titan or Monster.
    Tech/Alien Guys: Amazo, The New Leviathan (which any espionage group would want him for his surveillance)
    Deity Figures: Likewise anyone who covets the powers of the new Gods. Or understands him as a the planet tipping weapon that he could be.

    *shrug* but in the end he looks pretty low tech.
    I was only talking in the context of his position on the Justice League, there is nothing to stop him from building equipment, gathering intelligence and mixing it up in the field when he has the capability to do so on the fly, in the field or wherever he is. Vic isn't some brawler brick, he wasn't just an athlete, he was a promising student with two geniuses for parents, he should be allowed to flex those muscles too. if he's on the League he should be pivotal beyond just showing up to transport people and get beat on. simplifying Cyborg from a the team's token ragdoll to it's super fighting robot is more reductive than anything because at the end of the day DC is never going to let him outpunch the likes of Superman or Wonder Woman, so he should be allowed to outdo them in the thing he does best: tech!

    he should be running tactics with Batman and Martian Manhunter, him and John Stewart should be the ones designing and building HQ's and satellites for the League and it's members, he should have a planetary defense system for interstellar threats, he should have a lab full of inventive gadgets that Batman couldn't dream of, that help not just himself but his fellow leaguers and all of mankind. Imagine how dope it would be for Cyborg to boomtube weapons and support items in real-time for himself and the other League members in the middle if a hard fought conflict, or coordinating stealth missions on some far off space mission with the League. Him being the guy that people call for intel, like Oracle used to, is the perfect avenue to boosting his profile through cameos in other book as well. Everyone needs to supplement their teammates on a team, allowing Vic to not just shine but also help in spectacular fashion is not the same as making him a "Bulter". you can throw whoever you want at Vic but if he remains a. poorly designed and b. lacking a clear role of prominence, he's going to face the same problems. arbitrarily limiting him from playing roles he would be able to make his own is not going to help him, evaluating, updating, and making them for his character will.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 01-25-2020 at 08:00 AM.
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  3. #33
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    All these wonderful ideas in this thread.... It actually hurts to see what Vic currently is compared to them.

    With regards to the McFarlane DC Multiverse action figures, I’m curious as to which design they’ll use. It would be a dream if they used the Reis/Walker version.

  4. #34
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    I find I'm not a fan of the Reis design. It's certainly an improvement over the Lee design, but I don't think I've ever seen a Cyborg design that I actually thought was great or even good...or even mediocre. They've all been varying degrees of bad to me, with the worst being Jim Lee's or the Justice League Action design. Considering that, I think the first thing to upgrade would be his look.

    EDIT:
    After a quick Google image search, I can say that Jim Lee's design is worse than the Justice League Action one.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    One of the biggest things holding Vic back, imo is that Vic needs the upgrade, not his tech. The premise of his origin or archetype works against his advancement. He's Ronnie Raymond and Kyle Rayner - the "regular young guy who has powers thrust upon them." Vic isn't Tony Stark, who created his tech where the armor is an extension of who he is as a genius inventor, he's more like Firestorm - two parts trying to reconcile with each other but never can because that's the basis of his identity. Or Kyle Rayner, stuck as "the newbie" for decades as the regular guy being overwhelmed by the larger world he was thrown into. The dichotomy is baked into his premise, preventing him from totally owning his tech and advancing as a whole being. Even Peter Parker was at least a science guy, same as Barry Allen Flash also a science guy where the powers came to him as an extension of his work, or Hal Jordan who was already pushing the envelope of human boundaries and embodied the ideals of the space race so becoming a space cop seemed natural.

    That said, some writers have tried at times to do that with Vic and it's certainly not impossible to get Vic to that stage. It will take a really good writer at this point to give Vic such an indelible story that it will replace the old archtype and give future writers something they can use to further Vic's story as a character. Reading up on the latest advances in technology won't be enough - those advances have to have a more human, character-based reason. (for example, maybe as a 21st century athlete Vic was always looking to use science as a way to better himself, to imporove his mind/body connection and optimize his performance so that when his accident happens, becoming Cyborg would be something he could take advantage of and feed into his already established motivations... or something) Otherwise, writers will tend to fall back on the tried and true "man/monster" angle that they're familiar with. Vic needs to be seen as who he is, rather than what his tech can do, or he'll never be more than the human swiss army knife, utility guy.
    Last edited by j9ac9k; 01-25-2020 at 09:16 AM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    One of the biggest things holding Vic back, imo is that Vic needs the upgrade, not his tech. The premise of his origin or archetype works against his advancement. He's Ronnie Raymond and Kyle Rayner - the "regular young guy who has powers thrust upon them." Vic isn't Tony Stark, who created his tech where the armor is an extension of who he is as a genius inventor, he's more like Firestorm - two parts trying to reconcile with each other but never can because that's the basis of his identity. Or Kyle Rayner, stuck as "the newbie" for decades as the regular guy being overwhelmed by the larger world he was thrown into. The dichotomy is baked into his premise, preventing him from totally owning his tech and advancing as a whole being. Even Peter Parker was at least a science guy, same as Barry Allen Flash also a science guy where the powers came to him as an extension of his work, or Hal Jordan who was already pushing the envelope of human boundaries and embodied the ideals of the space race so becoming a space cop seemed natural.

    That said, some writers have tried at times to do that with Vic and it's certainly not impossible to get Vic to that stage. It will take a really good writer at this point to give Vic such an indelible story that it will replace the old archtype and give future writers something they can use to further Vic's story as a character. Reading up on the latest advances in technology won't be enough - those advances have to have a more human, character-based reason. (for example, maybe as a 21st century athlete Vic was always looking to use science as a way to better himself, to imporove his mind/body connection and optimize his performance so that when his accident happens, becoming Cyborg would be something he could take advantage of and feed into his already established motivations... or something) Otherwise, writers will tend to fall back on the tried and true "man/monster" angle that they're familiar with. Vic needs to be seen as who he is, rather than what his tech can do, or he'll never be more than the human swiss army knife, utility guy.

    Victor was a straight A student before his accident and has been shown making upgrades to his enhancements.

  7. #37
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    I was only talking in the context of his position on the Justice League, there is nothing to stop him from building equipment, gathering intelligence and mixing it up in the field when he has the capability to do so on the fly, in the field or wherever he is. Vic isn't some brawler brick, he wasn't just an athlete, he was a promising student with two geniuses for parents, he should be allowed to flex those muscles too. if he's on the League he should be pivotal beyond just showing up to transport people and get beat on. simplifying Cyborg from a the team's token ragdoll to it's super fighting robot is more reductive than anything because at the end of the day DC is never going to let him outpunch the likes of Superman or Wonder Woman, so he should be allowed to outdo them in the thing he does best: tech!

    he should be running tactics with Batman and Martian Manhunter, him and John Stewart should be the ones designing and building HQ's and satellites for the League and it's members, he should have a planetary defense system for interstellar threats, he should have a lab full of inventive gadgets that Batman couldn't dream of, that help not just himself but his fellow leaguers and all of mankind. Imagine how dope it would be for Cyborg to boomtube weapons and support items in real-time for himself and the other League members in the middle if a hard fought conflict, or coordinating stealth missions on some far off space mission with the League. Him being the guy that people call for intel, like Oracle used to, is the perfect avenue to boosting his profile through cameos in other book as well. Everyone needs to supplement their teammates on a team, allowing Vic to not just shine but also help in spectacular fashion is not the same as making him a "Bulter". you can throw whoever you want at Vic but if he remains a. poorly designed and b. lacking a clear role of prominence, he's going to face the same problems. arbitrarily limiting him from playing roles he would be able to make his own is not going to help him, evaluating, updating, and making them for his character will.
    In my post I missed an important name. I meant to say:
    I refer to him and really... on a similar vein for many years as the Martian Manhunter as the Justice Leagues "Butler"
    I think MM got that bad job too.

    Everyone needs to supplement their teammates on a team, allowing Vic to not just shine but also help in spectacular fashion is not the same as making him a "Bulter". you can throw whoever you want at Vic but if he remains a. poorly designed and b. lacking a clear role of prominence, he's going to face the same problems. arbitrarily limiting him from playing roles he would be able to make his own is not going to help him, evaluating, updating, and making them for his character will.
    Lemonpeace, first I want to say I'm not "Throwing things at him" I'm certainly not going aggro here. Cyborg is thing in the back of my mind that irks me and I'd like to be better.
    I'm not arbitrarily limiting him from roles either... by this simple fact... Its not arbitrary.
    That role isn't a role of prominence, but moreso...

    Also... I really need to give it some thought. A priori I feel like one of the pitfalls is that it does run the risk of becoming a "Support Character Only" once used that way at all. Not because it has to be, but because lazy writers will default to him being Lucius Fox in space."Here, batman "USE THIS SUPERWEAPON I designed "JUST FOR YOU"! which is both annoying and eyerolling but somewhat inevitable. Unless theres some kind of Vic Stone bible Held up by the editors explicitly saying "THese are the things that he must never do".

    On another note. . . This:

    Everyone needs to supplement their teammates on a team
    Hmph. I feel as if this isn't how the justice league works. Or rather... I'm a little confused how each member is supplementing. Perhaps I'm being a bit jaded admittedly, but it feels
    as if the majority of justice league adventures boil down to 2 thing outcomes: 1. Fencing with Viliian of the week until such time as superman punches it down. Or 2. Punch vothw until BatGod figures out
    what its weakness is and defeats it via Bat-Maguffin.

    That being said... if they made Cyborg into (Angela Spica, The Engineer) "Door!" and had his combat style like GENOS (Maybe let him be the guy that punches people down more often) there are a lot of other tech heroes to draw on.
    I get that he needs that Tony Start/Reed Richards moment of invent a MaGuffin on the spot, but... like the above poster says Vic often seems like hes just along for the ride of what happened, his dad was the scientist etc etc.

    Finally though, I really have to sit back and give it more thought Lemonpeace. I have misgivings about trying make him into the "Hephestus" archetype. While that might sound annoying, understand I'd like him to have good role. I don't WANT him to be something lesser.
    The other thing that bothers me is with Q, Oracle, Hephestus, hell even the Martian Manhuter... they really don't have adventures themselves. They're trapped in a lab, back at base, sending answers...
    Feminist veiws took BABS out of that chair of for some GOOD reason. Manhunter has only had Fenris, and The Hyperclan (white martian story line), and Q... I don't even know his fan fiction adventures.
    While Hephestus made a lot of the weapons of the gods but his greatest "stories" were Standing up to zues and getting crippled and trapping his wife and ares having an affair. I feel theres a problem with the associated archtype not with vic on that not.

    Still, there's a lot there to sink your teeth into... I'll really think about the things you suggest further tho. Laterz gents.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  8. #38
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    I think it'd be cool to do a Matrix thing with Cyborg... where he's always connected to this alternate VR reality, kind of, but he's also present in reality as well. He's the most Extremely Online hero, the god in the machine and also here in the present as a Mega Man cyborg at the same time.

    He's literally code switching, while he's on missions with Superman and the Justice League, he's able to "see" things that Superman's powers don't reach. Superman can see wireless signals but he can't be in the matrix-verse without the tech that's built into Vic's brain and body.

    Advanced A.I. machines built by Luthor and Brainiac that are formless but exist in this other dimension, the Signalverse, that only someone like Cyborg can take down, like Neo vs Smith.

    Vic would be susceptible to being hacked... good way to do a story to test how well the Justice League teammates can tell when you're not really yourself. Like when Doc Ock hacked Peter's brain for Superior Spider-Man.

    He's capable of being both the good and bad Terminator, and this could be a source of tension on "which Vic" they're getting. Cyborg could be scary to other heroes in the way that Batman is intimidating, in that they both seem to know so much more than anyone else in the room.

    You could have Vic be more of an intelligence agent / spy on Mission Impossible meets Inception style missions, chasing X macguffin. He's doing Tom Cruise stuff and Ving Rhames stuff at the same time, then doing the Leonardo DiCaprio stuff, then the Keanu Reeves stuff. And while he's in Matrix world, he's also still in the real world.

    And after all that, a brain would be so stressed and scrambled, and the big kryptonite to Cyborg is -- he's human. A mind can only take so much input and stimulus. And Vic maybe struggles to log off/relax/let go after taking in SO MUCH, but he has to keep going, because he's the only one who's this plugged in to both worlds.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    All these wonderful ideas in this thread.... It actually hurts to see what Vic currently is compared to them.

    This.

    Out of nowhere Cyborg has become my near singular comic book related focus. I recall Dwayne McDuffie writing for the animated series Ben 10 and I believe he utilized generic comic book character archetypes we're all familiar with (a FF Human Torch aka a fire guy analogue comes to mind as well as an
    Iron Man type aka a tech armored guy) but written from a new perspective and with a new back story. He made those blank slates better than or as interesting as the original characters in a show marketed to children.

    I'm almost ...no I AM at the point of wanting to see that take place with Cyborg.
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