To be honest, I'd love to see X-Men connect with more non-mutant characters

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Here ya go:

Alright, a problematic approach, I'll admit.

The ideologies aren't nearly the same, but, on a very superficial level I think I understand the sentiment: judge each life equal. (I hope, at least, I can't say for certain.)
That doesn't factor in ideology however and, I don't agree with it in the slightest, but I think I understand to a certain degree.


In any case; one does not speak for all and each poster's grievances with the current direction are going to be as varied as they are complex. I, for example, don't subscribe to the overall "eye for an eye" mentality, though I do advocate for unapologetic self-defence and for the immediate shutting down of harmful ideologies being preached in public or otherwise. The point is, however, to judge the individual by the action: shut Nazi's down by all means, but don't go after everyone who looks like them, or maybe sounds a bit like them.

It can be hard, trust me; the amount of times I've flinched at the slightest tone similar to what my abuser did to me--at similar turns of phrase or attitudes, for example...but in time, you learn to separate them.


That being said, I'd still like to clarify I don't agree. I can empathise to a point, but yeah, you're right, I don't agree with that.

[PsychoEFrost]

Here ya go:

Thank you.

Wow, that's bad. I don't know that guy.

I agree.

[PsychoEFrost]

Alright, a problematic approach, I'll admit.

The ideologies aren't nearly the same, but, on a very superficial level I think I understand the sentiment: judge each life equal. (I hope, at least, I can't say for certain.)
That doesn't factor in ideology however and, I don't agree with it in the slightest, but I think I understand to a certain degree.


In any case; one does not speak for all and each poster's grievances with the current direction are going to be as varied as they are complex. I, for example, don't subscribe to the overall "eye for an eye" mentality, though I do advocate for unapologetic self-defence and for the immediate shutting down of harmful ideologies being preached in public or otherwise. The point is, however, to judge the individual by the action: shut Nazi's down by all means, but don't go after everyone who looks like them, or maybe sounds a bit like them.

It can be hard, trust me; the amount of times I've flinched at the slightest tone similar to what my abuser did to me--at similar turns of phrase or attitudes, for example...but in time, you learn to separate them.

The argument where that quote comes in was about Kitty hurting the soldiers who were carting off innocent mutants to concentration camps. Saying it is just as evil to hurt them (or even maim them) compared to what the soldiers were doing is complete bollocks.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

The argument where that quote comes in was about Kitty hurting the soldiers who were carting off innocent mutants to concentration camps. Saying it is just as evil to hurt them (or even maim them) compared to what the soldiers were doing is complete bollocks.

Yeah, no, Kitty acted in self-defence and in a reasonably merciful response proportionate to what the soldiers were doing. She even prefaced it with "It doesn't have to be this way," showing more empathy in one panel than anyone did in the entire of HOX/POX; I totally agree with you there.

[GodfatherIV]

Val Cooper
Briar Raleigh
Stevie Hunter
Justin Pierce
Renee Majcomb
Cartier St Croix
Miguel Reyes
Trish Tilby
Kavita Rao
Peter Corbeau
Lee Forrester
Charlotte Jones

All of them are humans i think we'll be seeing again

[GodfatherIV]

I would like the X-men to be on their own universe. outside of Storm/Panther I prefer the X-men on their own.
Otherwise everything ends on pointless things like Avx or IvX

Im 100% onboard with this idea. Ive been saying this for the longest

[Kisinith]

And yet you seem to ignore the following:

How Jubilee was terrified of Apocalypse being left alone with Shogo, her own nightmares outright stating how he'd find "A human hiding within mutant paradise," and, as such, wouldn't leave her baby alone with him. She has no reason to trust Apocalypse, nor, by insinuation, the idea that humans might be welcome amongst Krakoa as you seem to believe. While not outright evidence that "All mutants hate humans", it is something to ponder.

And even then, it doesn't account for what the broader regards to 'humans' as a supposed separate species are in relation to mutants.


Additionally, the tone set shouldn't be amongst criticism regardless of how many 'issues' we're in. We've had 6 issues of set-up, if that didn't do anything to explain the tone that we should be perceiving in regards to mutant/human relations then it is a fault on the writer and is not amongst criticism, especially considering it's a monthly set up. Unlike, say, a novel, we do not have the luxury of reading the whole damn thing in one sitting--the choices made should be absolutely open to critique as we receive them because, basically, it's a totally different format.

Even one panel addressing how we got from A to B would help readers properly gauge what they're supposed to be picking up in regards to what Hickman wants to communicate; you cannot deride fans for wanting that clarification, if only because it might help better inform characters' voices.

Two things, first its Apocalypse, anyone with a brain should be wary of leaving any child, let alone a baseline human child with him. In point of fact I'm perfectly ok with concerns about the "former" villains. I understand the, in story, need for a fresh start but they still are who they were. That goes for the heroes as well, Magneto is a militant isolationist with an inherent distrust of humanity in large groups. Xavier is a hopeless optimist who walked alone and unprotected into the Sokovian embassy. The mutants in the MU have undergone a seismic shift in setting and circumstance which has impacted characterization not rewritten them. The inclusion of so many former villains and antagonists is obviously going to be addressed and just as obviously is fodder for future conflicts and stories. Also something already hinted at with Mystique and Sinister and shown with Shaw.

Second, In the post I responded to it laments what would happen to mutants with human kids... Answered with the example of Shogo. It also asks about non-mutant friends and allies, answered with the Starjammers and Brian Braddock. The criticism you speak of is (potentially) valid, the timing is what I take issue with. These aren't sociology dissertations, comics have a limited amount of space and have to work in laser beams and fisticuffs. As such when you look at something like the X-Men with decades of history, the conceit that every concept needs to be fully fleshed out and explored right now is absurd. We don't have all the answers yet, true but that's what you should expect from serialized storytelling. That criticism is further undermined because as I pointed out, there are current and future stories, Excalibur and the upcoming Fantastic Four crossover, that are specifically addressing these concerns.

You are right that we don't have the luxury of reading the whole damn thing in one sitting, The conversation in this thread however isn't criticizing what they have done. Its a criticism of what people assume may have been done, possibly could be and we just haven't been told yet. My critique isn't that this is an invalid criticism its a premature one.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Two things, first its Apocalypse, anyone with a brain should be wary of leaving any child, let alone a baseline human child with him. In point of fact I'm perfectly with the concerns about the "former" villains. I understand the need for a fresh start but they are still who they were. That goes for the heroes as well, Magneto is a militant isolationist with an inherent distrust of humanity in large groups. Xavier is a hopeless optimist who walked alone and unprotected into the Sokovian embassy. The mutants in the MU have undergone a seismic shift in setting and circumstance which has impacted characterization not rewritten them. The inclusion of so many former villains and antagonists is obviously going to be addressed and just as obviously is fodder for future conflicts and stories. Also something already hinted at with Mystique and Sinister and shown with Shaw.

Second, In the post I responded to it laments what would happen to mutants with human kids... Answered with the example of Shogo. It also asks about non-mutant friends and allies, answered with the Starjammers and Brian Braddock. The criticism you speak of is (potentially) valid, the timing is what I take issue with. These aren't sociology dissertations, comics have a limited amount of space and have to work in laser beams and fisticuffs. As such when you look at something like the X-Men with decades of history, the conceit that every concept needs to be fully fleshed out and explored right now is absurd. We don't have all the answers yet, true but that's what you should expect from serialized storytelling. That criticism is further undermined because as I pointed out, there are current and future stories, Excalibur and the upcoming Fantastic Four crossover, that are specifically addressing these concerns.

You are right that we don't have the luxury of reading the whole damn thing in one sitting, The conversation in this thread however isn't criticizing what they have done. Its a criticism of what people assume may have been done, possibly could be and we just haven't been told yet. My critique isn't that this is an invalid criticism its a premature one.

It's not really that absurd or premature though, not when you consider this: Mutants are still human. They come from humans and can create humans. If anything, considering the (implied) sudden drastic desire to totally separate from humanity as a whole, I would have thought this would have been at the forefront of the quiet council's mind "What about the human ties?"

When uprooting yourself to a new place, sometimes, the first thing you think of is family and friends. Yes, in healthy, adult relationships, you'll always have ties and lines of communication; but Krakoa seems to operate much differently and doesn't seem to take into account the grey area. What of those who want to remain where they are, what of those who don't think relocating is the answer.

Usually, that's step one in a few considerations of many.

[Kisinith]

It's not really that absurd or premature though, not when you consider this: Mutants are still human. They come from humans and can create humans. If anything, considering the (implied) sudden drastic desire to totally separate from humanity as a whole, I would have thought this would have been at the forefront of the quiet council's mind "What about the human ties?"

When uprooting yourself to a new place, sometimes, the first thing you think of is family and friends. Yes, in healthy, adult relationships, you'll always have ties and lines of communication; but Krakoa seems to operate much differently and doesn't seem to take into account the grey area. What of those who want to remain where they are, what of those who don't think relocating is the answer.

First issue, nowhere has it been stated they are going to or want to totally separate from humanity. Its never been stated by a character, never been shown in a comic. Its been directly refuted by the actions of the mutants and the X-Men. In fact, you have greater engagement with the humans after Krakoa than you did before.

Second issue, the question about human ties, once more, is being addressed. Its a running plot in Excalibur and its reasonable to assume it to be one of the central plot points of the upcoming X-Men FF book. Comics don't have to answer every plot point in issue #1. The answer may suck and may be deserving of criticism, we won't know until its actually given.

Third issue, If someone doesn't want to go to Krakoa why would that be an issue? What reason do we have to even assume its an issue?

1.jpg

Usually, that's step one in a few considerations of many.

Correction, Usually, that's one step in a few considerations of many. There are a lot of things they have to address and most of what they are looking at are still about creating a new state, not even the major considerations of running it. Whats more considering the long running, extinction-plot-of-the-week status quo the X-Men had been operating under before Krakoa. The logical first steps would be
1) Creating a safe space
2) Getting people from unsafe places to the safe place and
3) Protecting that safe space...

Hmmmm...Coincidentally, that looks like a summary of the core plots of X-Men, Marauders and X-Force.

[Electricmastro]

Guys, I miss when scenarios like this where more likely to happen (Rom #65 (1985), Infinity War #3 (1992)).

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

First issue, nowhere has it been stated they are going to or want to totally separate from humanity. Its never been stated by a character, never been shown in a comic. Its been directly refuted by the actions of the mutants and the X-Men. In fact, you have greater engagement with the humans after Krakoa than you did before.

Second issue, the question about human ties, once more, is being addressed. Its a running plot in Excalibur and its reasonable to assume it to be one of the central plot points of the upcoming X-Men FF book. Comics don't have to answer every plot point in issue #1. The answer may suck and may be deserving of criticism, we won't know until its actually given.

Third issue, If someone doesn't want to go to Krakoa why would that be an issue? What reason do we have to even assume its an issue?

1.jpg


Correction, Usually, that's one step in a few considerations of many. There are a lot of things they have to address and most of what they are looking at are still about creating a new state, not even the major considerations of running it. Whats more considering the long running, extinction-plot-of-the-week status quo the X-Men had been operating under before Krakoa. The logical first steps would be
1) Creating a safe space
2) Getting people from unsafe places to the safe place and
3) Protecting that safe space...

Hmmmm...Coincidentally, that looks like a summary of the core plots of X-Men, Marauders and X-Force.

I offer in refute; Fallen Angels. To quote Magneto talking to Kwannon "It's difficult to think like Charles, but I'm certain he would have told you to leave the matters of the human world be." --Even regarding the context of Kwannon receiving a vision of unknown origins, this doesn't sound particularly hopeful considering human-mutant relations. However, I will concede that is only Magneto talking (One can't speak for all, after all) and that he isn't going to be the most pro-human on Krakoa. Howver, the language adopted is worrying, as is with other characters, such as with the example of Storm you posted.

Namely, the pause she takes when describing "...Out there. In the world." She sounds so distanced from it, somewhere she was so willing to embrace as part of herself as recently as a few months ago (X-Time, that is) which isn't helped by the constant rhetoric she uses in regards to humanity, 'man' in particular. She of all sounds the most jaded and we haven't been given proper, on panel context for it--why is she suddenly referring to humanity in a broad-stroke manner, for example, or using language more associated with Magneto in regards to man "begging for unearned mercy." ?

I won't deny that the points you raised are important in nation building and survival, however, I argue it didn't have to come at the expense of properly established friendly mutant-human relationships and that the cause might even be helped by banking on such.

And no, you don't have greater engagement with humans from Krakoa than you did before.

[Londo Bellian]

Guys, I miss when scenarios like this where more likely to happen (Rom #65 (1985), Infinity War #3 (1992)).
http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chron...M65_Heroes.jpg
http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chron...stPowerful.jpg

I reiterate from elsewhere. Maybe never again. These team-ups are just laughter fodder in the Age of Krakoa. They may as well have been What Ifs or Elseworlds.

[Kisinith]

I offer in refute; Fallen Angels. To quote Magneto talking to Kwannon "It's difficult to think like Charles, but I'm certain he would have told you to leave the matters of the human world be." --Even regarding the context of Kwannon receiving a vision of unknown origins, this doesn't sound particularly hopeful considering human-mutant relations. However, I will concede that is only Magneto talking (One can't speak for all, after all) and that he isn't going to be the most pro-human on Krakoa. Howver, the language adopted is worrying, as is with other characters, such as with the example of Storm you posted.

Namely, the pause she takes when describing "...Out there. In the world." She sounds so distanced from it, somewhere she was so willing to embrace as part of herself as recently as a few months ago (X-Time, that is) which isn't helped by the constant rhetoric she uses in regards to humanity, 'man' in particular. She of all sounds the most jaded and we haven't been given proper, on panel context for it--why is she suddenly referring to humanity in a broad-stroke manner, for example, or using language more associated with Magneto in regards to man "begging for unearned mercy." ?

I won't deny that the points you raised are important in nation building and survival, however, I argue it didn't have to come at the expense of properly established friendly mutant-human relationships and that the cause might even be helped by banking on such.

The two characters you use as an example are
1) Magneto, who as much as I love the character (my favorite) is a paranoid militant isolationist, deathly afraid of what human society will do to mutants. A product of multiple genocides.
2) Kwannon, A introverted ninja murder doll who was raised by the Hand, had her only meaningful family murdered, or stolen (and then murdered). Who has spent the better part of the last few decades worth of stories dead. She was distanced from the world long before the nation of Krakoa ever became a part of it. In fact she has no meaningful connections with anyone at all except maybe Betsy...

Also not having seen something yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist or won't appear. As yet we have no reason to assume that properly established friendly mutant-human relationships have been sacrificed. So far that has never been stated, never been shown.

And no, you don't have greater engagement with humans from Krakoa than you did before.

Sure you do, its different but the Krakoans are engaging politically with the UN and far more countries than ever before. Engaging as an equal not a supplicant and on a far more meaningful basis. China, notably, was extraordinarily eager to develop a good relationship with Krakoa. There is the potential for the development of a meaningful political relationship with the Shi'ar possibly even including an off world mutant refuge in Sh'ar space. They are engaged economically with legal business entities through the hellfire trading company. The Black King is developing underworld and back channel relationships. The Excalibur team are developing a relationship with non-mutant magic users, the druids as well as whatever might develop in the Otherworld. In their so far only contact with other hero's (the FF) the official representation for Krakoa was friendly, engaging and ultimately backed away from a conflict in favor of a negotiated settlement. The X-Men are supposedly set to take a meaningful role in the next company wide event alongside other heroes.

Thing is there has been a change in tactics. The engagement is different than it was before, a top-down approach targeting corporations and governments rather than bottom up, community based activism they used to do. A different type of engagement but its still engagement and on more fronts and in more ways than I can remember ever before being tried. Whats more, we've never actually been shown that they aren't going to continue their previous actions. That's an assumption some of the fans have been leaping to based almost exclusively on the words of Magneto alone.

[BroHomo]

These aren't sociology dissertations, comics have a limited amount of space and have to work in laser beams and fisticuffs. As such when you look at something like the X-Men with decades of history, the conceit that every concept needs to be fully fleshed out and explored right now is absurd. We don't have all the answers yet, true but that's what you should expect from serialized storytelling. That criticism is further undermined because as I pointed out, there are current and future stories, .

Oh Dude. The truth in this is blinding!!!

[Kisinith]

I would speculate that one of the major plot points raised by HoX/PoX and the many lives of Moira is that
1) A lack of engagement and total isolationism will not work. Life 5
2) Community activism in the face of genocide will not work. Life 4
3) Mutant Conquest (Magneto's old path) will not work. Life 8
4) Genetic War (Apocalypse's path) will not work. Life 9

What Krakoa is, is an amalgamation of tactics and paths, a protected homeland, the development of a genuine mutant culture, negotiation from a position of strength but not based upon threats (mutant medicines), disciplined engagement with humanity. Give them a reason a material reason to want the mutants around, not relying on the better angels of human nature which have so often failed.