Silver Surfer vs. Sentry

[The Arbiter]

I know this match has been done a bunch of times, but hear me out. My buddy and I were discussing this match irl and I was going over how I thought Sentry had a decent counter to everything Norrin could toss out and would slowly overtake the guy with AoE blasts and so on. We were arguing with each other from a Rumbles perspective - meaning same rules, Arena etc.

He actually changed my mind. In the past, I have argued on here that Sentry wins, but now I feel like Surfer has the advantage, at least in standard Rumbles matches.

His argument (and now mine I suppose) is that despite Sentry's ability to return from having his molecules scattered, he's not flat immune to it and Surfer has plenty of transmutation stuff. The second time Sentry returns from Molecule Man scattering seems to take more then 10 seconds (going off of memory). Even if you feel he can come back in just under 10 seconds, say 7 or 8, Norrin will then have flooded the Arena in a black hole singularity. Not that either thing can kill Sentry off alone or even combined, but it should be able to slow down his molecules from reassembling before the 10 count.

What do you guys think? Sound workable? Or am I forgetting some instance where Sentry doesn't even need a body to act?

Bonus: New Merged Sentry vs Surfer with Quantum Bands

[Pendaran]

The problem of transmuting the Sentry, at least for the Silver Surfer, is that ultimately he's basically a mass of energy. We've seen him explode into such, we've seen him bleed out the Void, etc.

I don't really see the Surfer transmuting a mass of energy is my thing with arguing the transmutation win.

[The Arbiter]

The problem of transmuting the Sentry, at least for the Silver Surfer, is that ultimately he's basically a mass of energy. We've seen him explode into such, we've seen him bleed out the Void, etc.

I don't really see the Surfer transmuting a mass of energy is my thing with arguing the transmutation win.

Agreed. I more so meant, if Norrin can transmute him into something NOT Bob, would he then have to pull himself back into Bob before being able to retaliate?

I don't think it will stick. Wondering about a 10 count. Because if he just turns him into jello and scatters that jello (or gas whatever) with a black hole, it might get the 10 count.

Unless I'm mistaking your point? Are you suggesting he's flat out immune to transmutation because of being energy? If so, what did Owen do to him? Scattered his molecules? Seems transmutation-ish to me.

[Cronus]

Trying to recall, IIRC didnt Owen just try to disperse Bob into nothingness?

Sorry, into his component atoms?

[Wildling]

Trying to recall, IIRC didnt Owen just try to disperse Bob into nothingness?

Sorry, into his component atoms?

He tried to kill him off completely (whatever way one could say he was capable of) because he correctly decided Sentry was too much of an unknown variable to let go into the wild (unlike the other Dark Avengers, those were the guys Molecule Man felt safe just transmutating all kinds of ways, he threatened DNA reconfiguration to Osborn just as a way to inflict torture).

am I forgetting some instance where Sentry doesn't even need a body to act?

When he 100% bodily restored himself from Morgana's time magic attack on him, he was completely unaware of what had just happened to him. Now it took an eternity by Rumbles standards for that to happen, but that run had him on a learning curve taking dramatically less and less time every time someone did something that extreme on him. And he was just a half-body, bubbling mass of Void energy and still mentally capable of figuring out Loki's presence and immediately targetting and terminating him.

That's the first problem I see with this argument. Sentry's body reset was shown as part of his power set that kicks in by itself right after the ridiculous One Hit Kill threshold is passed, even if it could be consciously put on hold (when he played possum just to hear out his wife's crack theories about his powers) or diminished (by a pre-existing, storyline specific and long gestating personal desire to die). I don't see Surfer fundamentally overcoming Sentry's power set, just chip at it.

Second problem is I didn't have the impression Molecule Man was around Surfer in between retcons and walked back retcons at least regarding manipulation. Just in the Dark Avengers story in question he wasn't just able to transmutate people, but take them over completely in his wide vicinity regardless of wildly variable origins and power levels (from Bullseye to Sentry) to the point of casually musti-tasking them (he trapped Sentry and the rest separately and had the rest of the city's civilians in some kind of molecular cornfield he brought them out of when coaxed). He seemed more like the kind of multi super team wrecking maxi threat as Sentry was, just with a different angle. As unhinged as he was at times, his big concern at the time was rather rational: that if he became a public threat killing the Avengers, he'd be forced to counter and kill wave after wave of superhero teams until Mister Fantastic himself figured a way to trick/contain him.

[big_adventure]

I don't see Norrin putting out as much transformation oomph as Owen. And, while Sentry took longer than 10-count to come back from Owen's first wipe, he just no-sold Owen after and then did the same in reverse, to which Owen couldn't resist. So it would seem that he's learned to deal with transmutation.

[k von doom]

I know next to nothing about Sentry but if he becomes a mass of energy, wouldn't Surfer be able to just absorb him into himself or the Quantum bands?

[Wildling]

I know next to nothing about Sentry but if he becomes a mass of energy, wouldn't Surfer be able to just absorb him into himself or the Quantum bands?

I'm not sure that's such a great tactic to try since Sentry's appearance in Doctor Strange established the Void side of him can, if given the chance and independently of the Sentry, possess other people. It took Loki boosting himself with all of the world's magic in order to separate him from Doctor Strange's body.

[Cronus]

There's probably an obvious answer that I'm missing here...but is there a difference between simply reducing someone to atoms vs actually trying to change those same atoms into say lead?

[The Arbiter]

There's probably an obvious answer that I'm missing here...but is there a difference between simply reducing someone to atoms vs actually trying to change those same atoms into say lead?

Transmutation is a breaking down of a things component molecules at the atomic level and then using the "ingredients" of said breakdown to recombine into a new material.

The other is a breaking down of a things component molecules at the atomic level and... that's it lol. Just tossing those "ingredients" to the wind.

[big_adventure]

Once again, the point still stands for me that Surfer's best transmutation feats are nowhere near Owen's. And Sentry no-sold the guy once he learned how. One could argue that Reece was weaker than normal in that arc, but that's kind of wishcasting as it's never remotely stated that he is, nobody was acting like he was, except for Sentry, he never fails at the kind of thing he'd otherwise succeed at, etc.

So yeah, I'd say that sort of power progression shows that Sentry is too much for the Surfer, still.

[Cronus]

Transmutation is a breaking down of a things component molecules at the atomic level and then using the "ingredients" of said breakdown to recombine into a new material.

The other is a breaking down of a things component molecules at the atomic level and... that's it lol. Just tossing those "ingredients" to the wind.

Okay. So in touching on the relevant points from Dark Avengers 11 and 12, I saw no evidence that Owen ever attempted to actually transmute the Sentry, just the aforementioned dispersing of Bob on the atomic level. In fact, Owen later transmuted Daken into tree.

Now the comment that gives pause is when a self restored Sentry commands Owen to show him how to put "everything back the way it was". Is he saying that with tutoring he can recombine everything destroyed by Owen with the same skill Owen can? Hmmm, might be a stretch without some hard feats.

I guess, from what I read, there's no real evidence that Sentry can resist transmutation. Not sure I'm comfortable hand waving what took place between Owen and Bob as an attempt to transmute Bob. I mean, I place Bob on a par with Thanos (dang close anyway), so below skyfather.

Maybe you're right Arby. *shrugs*

[The Arbiter]

It does seem like if Bob knows its coming he can basically "nope" offensive attacks on his atomic structure, but again Surfer is fast enough to do the thing before Bob can reasonably react.

Big might be right in that Owen has better feats for molecules then Surfer though.

[Cronus]

Isnt there an old issue of Avengers where Owen enlists Surfers help in focusing his power? Obviously, in terms of raw, brute control over molecular composition, Owen is far and away more powerful. But perhaps early depictions of Surfer and Owen's fine tunes control over molecules suggests Norrin to be superior. After all, Norrin transmuted Quasimodo into living flesh and back again, as well as choked an entire planet with vegetative growth...maybe the power cosmic gives the Surfer some intuitive ability that Owen initially lacked.

[Wildling]

Okay. So in touching on the relevant points from Dark Avengers 11 and 12, I saw no evidence that Owen ever attempted to actually transmute the Sentry, just the aforementioned dispersing of Bob on the atomic level. In fact, Owen later transmuted Daken into tree.

And interestingly Daken was able to initially resist transmutation through his mutant healing factor until Owen noticed, dialed his powers up, and easily turned him a plantman anyway until Sentry saved the day. That is the important distinction here: Sentry was able to not just survive but on the fly overpower the entirety of Molecule Man's powers (which included turning X to Y but also made him replicate telepathy and government files hacking, grant himself flight and forcefields, manipulate a symbiote to eat its host and make pocket reality spaces) to the point Sentry paralyzed him in mid-air where you couldn't even say Owen didn't have access to his own powers, since Owen was raging about how Sentry was beating him at his own game and then, under the promise of being let go, instantly reversing what his powers had done for the entire storyline.

Now Sentry wasn't learned enough with these powers to multi-task restore everybody else and also subdue Molecule Man all by himself (can't help to wonder a little bit about Merged Sentry whose sleepwalking in Oklahoma recently was something I'd see Molecule Man doing if he was in a Halloween mood) but that has nothing to do with restoring his own body, which even before Owen started giving him ideas was a by-design power set thing that never required him having a working brain or anything like that to kick in. Even when suicidal, smitten by Thor and inside the Sun it was revealed he still had enough left in him to reshape himself over and over from one atom before the Apocalypse Twins retrieved his body, and there was still enough left of his body to undergo ceremonial mummification before the Horseman transformation reanimated him fully.

Basically I don't see Surfer and Molecule Man's powers as being equivalent enough to the point his speed edge is going to tip the scales, especially depending on what's the word on him being able to manipulate a well of energy this deep and weird by the time Sentry gets to the "K-i-l-L" stage of thought.