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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Shellhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Isnt there an old issue of Avengers where Owen enlists Surfers help in focusing his power? Obviously, in terms of raw, brute control over molecular composition, Owen is far and away more powerful. But perhaps early depictions of Surfer and Owen's fine tunes control over molecules suggests Norrin to be superior. After all, Norrin transmuted Quasimodo into living flesh and back again, as well as choked an entire planet with vegetative growth...maybe the power cosmic gives the Surfer some intuitive ability that Owen initially lacked.
    Maybe in Avengers #215. I barely remember them meeting in that issue, but I barely remember that second Shooter run on Avengers because I never felt like re-reading any of the issues.

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Okay. So in touching on the relevant points from Dark Avengers 11 and 12, I saw no evidence that Owen ever attempted to actually transmute the Sentry, just the aforementioned dispersing of Bob on the atomic level. In fact, Owen later transmuted Daken into tree.

    Now the comment that gives pause is when a self restored Sentry commands Owen to show him how to put "everything back the way it was". Is he saying that with tutoring he can recombine everything destroyed by Owen with the same skill Owen can? Hmmm, might be a stretch without some hard feats.

    I guess, from what I read, there's no real evidence that Sentry can resist transmutation. Not sure I'm comfortable hand waving what took place between Owen and Bob as an attempt to transmute Bob. I mean, I place Bob on a par with Thanos (dang close anyway), so below skyfather.

    Maybe you're right Arby. *shrugs*
    Again, the Sentry is basically a sentient pile of energy. The idea that the Surfer can transmute energy seems well out of anything we have seen the Surfer do with transmutation.

  3. #18
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shellhead View Post
    Maybe in Avengers #215. I barely remember them meeting in that issue, but I barely remember that second Shooter run on Avengers because I never felt like re-reading any of the issues.
    Heh, yeah. You either love or hate Jim's stuff.
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  4. #19
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Again, the Sentry is basically a sentient pile of energy. The idea that the Surfer can transmute energy seems well out of anything we have seen the Surfer do with transmutation.
    Hmm. Didnt the Surfer transmute his board into energy only to reconstitute it once outside Galactus' barrier? Of course, not sure that compares to the raw energy of the Sentry...
    "I know you're in there Banner. I'll get you out!"
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    "Would you give a guy a foot massage?"
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    "You said clear."
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  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Hmm. Didnt the Surfer transmute his board into energy only to reconstitute it once outside Galactus' barrier? Of course, not sure that compares to the raw energy of the Sentry...
    You kind of answer yourself there. But more to the point, the Surfer's board is something he's at times straight up generated out of himself, it's not really normal circumstances when it is involved.

  6. #21
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    You kind of answer yourself there. But more to the point, the Surfer's board is something he's at times straight up generated out of himself, it's not really normal circumstances when it is involved.
    What's your take on Surfer "sampling, synthesizing and supercharging the odin force"?

    I suppose I'm driving at, it occurs to me, one of the most formidable energy and matter manipulators in the 616 has almost zero feats for transforming energy from one type to the next.
    Last edited by Cronus; 12-03-2019 at 05:59 PM.
    "I know you're in there Banner. I'll get you out!"
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    "Would you give a guy a foot massage?"
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    "You said clear."
    "I said it looks clear."
    "Well what's it look like now?"
    "Looks clear."

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    What's your take on Surfer "sampling, synthesizing and supercharging the odin force"?

    I suppose I'm driving at, it occurs to me, one of the most formidable energy and matter manipulators in the 616 has almost zero feats for transforming energy from one type to the next.
    That compared to his overall career it's an insane outlier that would require him to be a skyfather. That whole sequence with Bill/Odin was well out of type.

  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    What's your take on Surfer "sampling, synthesizing and supercharging the odin force"?

    I suppose I'm driving at, it occurs to me, one of the most formidable energy and matter manipulators in the 616 has almost zero feats for transforming energy from one type to the next.
    He's added Firelords energy bolts to his own energy, drained the Hulk of gamma, ripped open singularities out of thin air and turned off gravity while /sleeping/ before.

    He's a potent energy manipulator just fine.

    He's also done bizarre things like turn his own body into snow despite the vast energies it contains. Note: I don't think Surfer is MADE of energy like Bob sometimes is, just that he has plenty of it residing within him. Like a battery.

    That and Bob seems to start off in a quasi-organic matter state as a baseline with his vast energies lurking below the surface. He is not immune to a sufficiently talented matter manipulator scattering him. It just won't stick. It won't even work at all if he sees it coming - he can shut it down. I personally don't think Norrin could beat him in any meaningful way in a comic. But a 10-count on Rumbles doesn't seem too crazy imo.

    Again, this is all moot if Sentry can act in a disembodied state beyond just trying to reconstitute some form of body - void body or otherwise - which maybe he totally can.
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  9. #24
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    He's added Firelords energy bolts to his own energy, drained the Hulk of gamma, ripped open singularities out of thin air and turned off gravity while /sleeping/ before.

    He's a potent energy manipulator just fine.
    But if we say Bob is a big pile of energy, are there feats for Surfer converting a mass of energy that large into say a twinkie (ghost busters reference intended).

    Edit, or from one type of energy to a different form of energy even?

    He's also done bizarre things like turn his own body into snow despite the vast energies it contains. Note: I don't think Surfer is MADE of energy like Bob sometimes is, just that he has plenty of it residing within him. Like a battery.
    I'm under the assumption you and Pen know more about the Sentry being more defined as a mass of energy. I dont recall that, but it has been a stretch since I read his stuff.

    That and Bob seems to start off in a quasi-organic matter state as a baseline with his vast energies lurking below the surface. He is not immune to a sufficiently talented matter manipulator scattering him. It just won't stick. It won't even work at all if he sees it coming - he can shut it down. I personally don't think Norrin could beat him in any meaningful way in a comic. But a 10-count on Rumbles doesn't seem too crazy imo.
    I see. Because Norrin is vastly faster.

    Again, this is all moot if Sentry can act in a disembodied state beyond just trying to reconstitute some form of body - void body or otherwise - which maybe he totally can.
    Not sure if he can. Bob's subsequent reconstitution seemed involuntary. Honestly, the Sentry is very difficult for me to pin down.
    "I know you're in there Banner. I'll get you out!"
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    "Would you give a guy a foot massage?"
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    "You said clear."
    "I said it looks clear."
    "Well what's it look like now?"
    "Looks clear."

  10. #25

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    I'm not saying he needs to make Bob into a new thing. Even if restructuring that energy is beyond his skills, he should still be able to locate and break down the baseline molecules/energy at the atomic level and just leave it in its scattered state.

    Like, he can move a Class 100 level of energy around (the Hulk) without strain or effort and put it into different places and utilize it for new purposes. Pulling energy around is not a new thing for him. We know he can break down and restructure normal matter/molecules pretty easily and we know he can shift/absorb/move vast quantities of energy around as well. Bob is either one or the other of these things and has been shown to be scattered by potent enough manipulators if caught off guard - which Norrins blitz would effectively replicate imo.
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  11. #26
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Like, he can move a Class 100 level of energy around (the Hulk) without strain or effort and put it into different places and utilize it for new purposes.
    Those aren't really comparable depths of energy ultimately.

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Those aren't really comparable depths of energy ultimately.
    True, but relatively speaking Norrin didn't particularly exert himself on the Hulk thing. It was presented as a pretty simple action.

    Mileage might totally vary here, and again, big_adventure might have a point in saying Owen has more oomph then Surfer to have done what he did.
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  13. #28

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    Also, this totally confirms my suspicions that you love the Sentry as a character and a concept ;P
    "At the end of the day, Arby is a pretty prolific poster proposing a plurality of proper posts for us."
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  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Also, this totally confirms my suspicions that you love the Sentry as a character and a concept ;P
    The only thing that stops him from being the worst character to come out of modern superhero comics is that Superboy Prime also did ;p

  15. #30
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Then again, there's also the Court of Owls.

    I am depressingly spoiled for choice here ;p

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