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  1. #1
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    Default So, I just found out marvel/hulu cancelled the Ghost Rider tv show !!!!!!!!

    runaways is ending after the third season, cloak and dagger is gone as a solo show, and now this ghost rider show I was looking forward to was apparently axed two months ago. What a god damn waste.

    There were reports that Fiege was the hitman, perhaps he wanted to use ghost rider in the cinematic universe... and so is this the shit we are going to have to deal with now? Film gets top billing while television, the SUPERIOR creative medium must always be home to the strays? Loki and scarlet witch and vision are not iron man, not thor, not xmen. What the hell is going on?

    Remember how people used to say that if Marvel had the rights to xmen and spiderman they would never have branched out with iron man and thor like they did? I feel like that is what Fiege or someone controlling marvel is doing with television, they are literally sucking the life out of the medium. Is there some other explanation?

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    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammael View Post
    runaways is ending after the third season, cloak and dagger is gone as a solo show, and now this ghost rider show I was looking forward to was apparently axed two months ago. What a god damn waste.

    There were reports that Fiege was the hitman, perhaps he wanted to use ghost rider in the cinematic universe... and so is this the shit we are going to have to deal with now? Film gets top billing while television, the SUPERIOR creative medium must always be home to the strays? Loki and scarlet witch and vision are not iron man, not thor, not xmen. What the hell is going on?

    Remember how people used to say that if Marvel had the rights to xmen and spiderman they would never have branched out with iron man and thor like they did? I feel like that is what Fiege or someone controlling marvel is doing with television, they are literally sucking the life out of the medium. Is there some other explanation?
    Besides the film spin offs like Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Hawkeye, WandaVision, and Loki Disney+ is also introducing new characters with their own shows with She-Hulk, Moonknight, and Ms. Marvel.

    IMO Feige now controlling all Marvel he doesn't want tv shows he didn't create and thus didn't have creative and more importantly quality control over remember the MCUs biggest embarrassments came from the tv side with stuff like Inhumans and Iron Fist.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    Kevin Feige is sucking the life out of the medium of television?

  4. #4
    Mighty Member C_Miller's Avatar
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    Television is the superior creative medium? That's definitely an opinion.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member AndrewCrossett's Avatar
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    The people in the movie side of the MCU never had any use or respect for the TV side. That's been pretty clear. Now that the movie people are in charge of it all, I fear they're going to try and declare all prior TV series to be non-canon. Which I will have a big problem with.

    Unless you're doing a global reboot, I think canon material in a fictional universe should follow the same rules as canon in the real universe... you're stuck with reality, like it or not. Removing things from continuity is a betrayal of the people who watched it with the understanding that it counted, even if it didn't impact the flagship movies at all. It was still part of the complete story.

    I can't muster much respect or investment in a story where "reality" (i.e. canon) is a matter of convenience. Which is a big reason I don't get into superhero comics with their constant reboots.

    I hope my fears will turn out to be unfounded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_Miller View Post
    Television is the superior creative medium? That's definitely an opinion.
    The correct one, as judged by a higher authority. Me!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    The people in the movie side of the MCU never had any use or respect for the TV side. That's been pretty clear. Now that the movie people are in charge of it all, I fear they're going to try and declare all prior TV series to be non-canon. Which I will have a big problem with.

    Unless you're doing a global reboot, I think canon material in a fictional universe should follow the same rules as canon in the real universe... you're stuck with reality, like it or not. Removing things from continuity is a betrayal of the people who watched it with the understanding that it counted, even if it didn't impact the flagship movies at all. It was still part of the complete story.

    I can't muster much respect or investment in a story where "reality" (i.e. canon) is a matter of convenience. Which is a big reason I don't get into superhero comics with their constant reboots.

    I hope my fears will turn out to be unfounded.

    I would not care if tv was canon or not if it got to paint with the same colors on a different canvas. But it seems Feige has an attitude of... only crayons for that canvas! Hmm, I like that crayon I never bothered to use on my own canvas, I take that one now too and none for yours.


    This sense of tv taking a back seat is what I have a problem with. If Feige wants to go around clipping the wings of promising marvel content on television I think that is an incredible waste.

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    Most of it wasnt promising tbh.

  9. #9
    The Nature Boy AnakinFlair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    Kevin Feige is sucking the life out of the medium of television?

    There is a simple explanation for this. Disney wants to bring all of the Marvel universe under one umbrella, especially now that they have a streaming service that needs content. Why farm out your properties to other networks when you can make the show for your own? As to why the shows are being cancelled instead of just moved- that may be contractual. For instance, Disney is prohibited from using the characters from the Marvel Netflix shows on TV for 2 years. There may have been similar restrictions for Runaways and Cloak and Dagger.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    The people in the movie side of the MCU never had any use or respect for the TV side. That's been pretty clear. Now that the movie people are in charge of it all, I fear they're going to try and declare all prior TV series to be non-canon. Which I will have a big problem with.

    Unless you're doing a global reboot, I think canon material in a fictional universe should follow the same rules as canon in the real universe... you're stuck with reality, like it or not. Removing things from continuity is a betrayal of the people who watched it with the understanding that it counted, even if it didn't impact the flagship movies at all. It was still part of the complete story.

    I can't muster much respect or investment in a story where "reality" (i.e. canon) is a matter of convenience. Which is a big reason I don't get into superhero comics with their constant reboots.

    I hope my fears will turn out to be unfounded.
    Or they can do what a large portion of the public did and just ignore the TV stuff. They may have tried to sell the 'It's all connected' stuff at one point, but that connection only ever ran one way- what happened in the movies affected what happened on the shows. The shows never impacted the movies.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    There is a simple explanation for this. Disney wants to bring all of the Marvel universe under one umbrella, especially now that they have a streaming service that needs content. Why farm out your properties to other networks when you can make the show for your own? As to why the shows are being cancelled instead of just moved- that may be contractual. For instance, Disney is prohibited from using the characters from the Marvel Netflix shows on TV for 2 years. There may have been similar restrictions for Runaways and Cloak and Dagger.



    Or they can do what a large portion of the public did and just ignore the TV stuff. They may have tried to sell the 'It's all connected' stuff at one point, but that connection only ever ran one way- what happened in the movies affected what happened on the shows. The shows never impacted the movies.

    But Hulu is 2/3 owned by Disney already, it makes no sense to cancel shows there... unless the 1/3 would have power over usage of characters. But that never stopped marvel from including whoever they wanted in movies, they have even had different versions.

    I don't get this attitude that if a movie is going to have a version of a character, the tv version needs to DIE !!!!!!!!!!!!! (i.e. deadshot). The CW version owned by warner brothers is not even in the same universe !!!!!!!!!!!

    WTF!


    As for the public ignoring television. That feeds into the narrative that movies are higher tier. That is bs. Take disney+, the largest SINGLE draw of a series or movie on that platform right now is the Mandalorian, a tv show.

    I'd rather watch a well done star wars tv show than a movie, even though I'd like to see both. I'd rather a well done xmen series were made than a well made xmen movie, look at how shriveled up the apocalypse movie was. It's a stunted broken shriveled up canvas in movies, it's not ideal for telling larger stories unless you literally take a decade.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammael View Post
    But Hulu is 2/3 owned by Disney already, it makes no sense to cancel shows there... unless the 1/3 would have power over usage of characters. But that never stopped marvel from including whoever they wanted in movies, they have even had different versions.

    I don't get this attitude that if a movie is going to have a version of a character, the tv version needs to DIE !!!!!!!!!!!!! (i.e. deadshot). The CW version owned by warner brothers is not even in the same universe !!!!!!!!!!!

    WTF!


    As for the public ignoring television. That feeds into the narrative that movies are higher tier. That is bs. Take disney+, the largest SINGLE draw of a series or movie on that platform right now is the Mandalorian, a tv show.

    I'd rather watch a well done star wars tv show than a movie, even though I'd like to see both. I'd rather a well done xmen series were made than a well made xmen movie, look at how shriveled up the apocalypse movie was. It's a stunted broken shriveled up canvas in movies, it's not ideal for telling larger stories unless you literally take a decade.
    I forgot about Disney owning a part of Hulu. And it could also be Feige clearing house so he can do the shows he wants to do.

    As for TV and Movie characters crossing over, while there were occasions where movie characters guested on Agents of SHIELD, I don't think one character from any of the TV shows ever made it to the big screen, with the exception of a cameo from Agent Carter's Jarvis.

    And killing off TV characters because they are going to be in a movie is a DC thing, not Marvel. And I agree that it's ridiculous. I especially hated it that they were forced to kill off Waller and Deadshot on Arrow, and they were prevented from using Slade Wilson for the longest time. But apparently WB thinks it's audience are morons and are easily confused.

    Also, let me clarify- I'm not saying that movies are a higher tier, and that TV doesn't draw. I love The Mandalorian. And there are plenty of TV shows on right now that just wouldn't have the same quality if they were reduced to a movie (See The Haunting, or Daredevil). What I'm saying is that, when Agent's of SHIELD was first launched, they made a big deal about how it was all connected. They also carried that over to the Netflix shows (I'm taking the Fox shows out of the equation here). But at the end of the day, people realized that nothing that happened on any of those shows ever impacted the movies, and so people stopped paying attention to them.

    The Netflix shows did much better, and it's pretty much agreed that they were canceled because Disney didn't want Marvel shows on a competing streaming service. But AoS has had declining viewership every year. I won't take a shot and say it's because of the quality- from all I've heard and the bit I've seen, the show actually improved each year. But the fans stopped caring because it wasn't connected, and the general audience never really cared at all.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member AndrewCrossett's Avatar
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    In the international market, Agents of SHIELD was Disney+'s second most popular title.

    They couldn't have done anything in a TV show that impacted the movies, because even the most-watched show on TV has only a fraction of the viewership of an MCU feature film... you can't have all those movie goers wondering what they missed. So I'm not sure what people were expecting. Tony Stark sitting by the pool with a mojito and a copy of the WSJ?
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    In the international market, Agents of SHIELD was Disney+'s second most popular title.

    They couldn't have done anything in a TV show that impacted the movies, because even the most-watched show on TV has only a fraction of the viewership of an MCU feature film... you can't have all those movie goers wondering what they missed. So I'm not sure what people were expecting. Tony Stark sitting by the pool with a mojito and a copy of the WSJ?
    It's easier to have different spotlights of focus when there is not some earth-scale or universe-scale conflict and cosmic happening that would obviously effect every other properties characters. Thor Ragnarok being in a far off planet could easily coexist with any other movie or tv show that had their own more contained focuses.


    Also, to bolster my own argument that tv is a superior medium.

    watchmen movie (which I enjoyed)

    vs

    watchmen tv show (this $%# is getting pretty damn phenomenal)



    Now imagine a watchmen Fiege... ooh, we want the watchmen characters for a MOVIE, CANCEL the tv show, CANCEL IT !!!!!!!!!!!! MOVIES uber alles !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Garbage. Absolute garbage.

  14. #14
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammael View Post
    Film gets top billing while television, the SUPERIOR creative medium must always be home to the strays? Loki and scarlet witch and vision are not iron man, not thor, not xmen. What the hell is going on?
    Television is not the superior medium - nor is it inferior. Both mediums have their strengths and weaknesses. Film's strength is superior effects, a wider audience, and the possibility for greater profit. Given that, of course studios are going to prioritize certain characters for film over TV. Why is that upsetting? I'm glad it seems they might think GR is worthy of the big leagues of film still.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammael View Post
    It's easier to have different spotlights of focus when there is not some earth-scale or universe-scale conflict and cosmic happening that would obviously effect every other properties characters. Thor Ragnarok being in a far off planet could easily coexist with any other movie or tv show that had their own more contained focuses.


    Also, to bolster my own argument that tv is a superior medium.

    watchmen movie (which I enjoyed)

    vs

    watchmen tv show (this $%# is getting pretty damn phenomenal)



    Now imagine a watchmen Fiege... ooh, we want the watchmen characters for a MOVIE, CANCEL the tv show, CANCEL IT !!!!!!!!!!!! MOVIES uber alles !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Garbage. Absolute garbage.
    Again, I'm agreeing with you that TV can be a superior medium. You have no argument from me for that. And again, you need only look at the TV shows that have been made that also had a movie made, and you can see that the show is always far superior to the movie. Just look at Watchmen, The Haunting, Daredevil, His Dark Materials....

    At the same time, Film can be a superior medium. Taking Batman '66 out of the equation, we've never had a good, serious Batman on television. But we had three excellent Nolan Batman films that would never have happened on TV. Alien could never have been done on TV. Amazon is doing a Lord of the Rings show, but I don' think it will be as good as the movies. Justice League....

    Okay, that's a bad example.

    Again, DC is notorious for either killing off characters that are being used in film projects (Deadshot, Waller), or not allowing the characters to be used at anymore (Slade Wilson), or not be used at all (Ted Kord). But I don't think that Marvel has ever done that. When has Feige ever killed off a character because they wanted to use them in the movies? For the failed Ghost Rider show, in which case there could be any number of reasons why that didn't happen. Maybe they couldn't crack the story to make it a weekly show. Maybe it was cost prohibitive to make is as a TV show. Hell, we only see J'onn J'onz as a Martian 2 or 3 times a season, the rest of the time he's shown as human. I can't imagine what the budgets would be for a show where the main characters walks around with a flaming body and drives a flaming car every week.

    We know that the's shows are canceled now, but that's not to say they couldn't try to bring them back later on down the road. I've been hearing rumors that Charlie Cox will be coming back as Daredevil at some point. It could be that Marvel and Disney have a full slate of shows they are launching right now, and they want those to succeed. But those seem to be event series, with limited episodes. Maybe Feige is going to treat TV like he treated the film slate and break it up into phases. In that case, maybe we'll see a Ghost Rider show in Phase 2 or 3. Or maybe they do want to put him back on the big screen, in which case as long as Nick Cage stays away and the Marvel/Disney machine is behind it, it could end up being a damn good movie.

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