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  1. #16
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Was that intentional or instinct ?
    It doesn't matter at all. Two dudes unload crossbows on her. After they are fired, she whips up ice to catch them in flight. That's a fair amount faster then these people throw kicks and punches.
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  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    One of the few areas the Avatar characters can win in is if they can get in close, because Elsa has literally no combat training in the slightest so any martial artist quick enough may be able to take her down.
    If they can get a in close she can just AOE everything.

  3. #18
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    It doesn't matter at all. Two dudes unload crossbows on her. After they are fired, she whips up ice to catch them in flight. That's a fair amount faster then these people throw kicks and punches.
    For clarity, it was one crossbow and Elsa pretty clearly didn't intend to catch it. She literally closed her eyes, flinching and was surprised that the arrow had been caught. See 1:02 in the below video.



    Given the much deeper pool of comparable or superior speed feats for several Avatar characters and the overall presentation of Elsa being - so far as I can tell - pretty normal in terms of reflexes, I don't see speed being a factor here.
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  4. #19
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    For clarity, it was one crossbow and Elsa pretty clearly didn't intend to catch it. She literally closed her eyes, flinching and was surprised that the arrow had been caught. See 1:02 in the below video.



    Given the much deeper pool of comparable or superior speed feats for several Avatar characters and the overall presentation of Elsa being - so far as I can tell - pretty normal in terms of reflexes, I don't see speed being a factor here.
    Sorry, thought it was two. But to me, that makes it even better: she didn't know she could do it, and barely expected anything worthwhile to happen at all, and she STILL did it. Knowing that she can do it, and in a definitive combat situation just means that she'll have an easier time of it. Plus, for these guys to punch her, they have to get through the barrage of crap she can throw at them. She ACCIDENTALLY froze a country in the first one (I haven't seen the second), and built a massive castle entirely out of ice without hurrying as a small part of a song.
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  5. #20
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Sorry, thought it was two. But to me, that makes it even better: she didn't know she could do it, and barely expected anything worthwhile to happen at all, and she STILL did it. Knowing that she can do it, and in a definitive combat situation just means that she'll have an easier time of it.
    So, I'm not going to get into this statement because I don't think it's worth litigating but I will note that I highly disagree with the premise you're suggesting here.

    Plus, for these guys to punch her, they have to get through the barrage of crap she can throw at them. She ACCIDENTALLY froze a country in the first one (I haven't seen the second), and built a massive castle entirely out of ice without hurrying as a small part of a song.
    They don't need to punch her? Most of the Avatar crew have pretty solid range games, much better mobility and skill and much greater experience at fighting supernatural opponents. Elsa, as far as I'm aware, has no formal combat training or much experience or, for that matter, enhanced durability.

    I also have not seen the second film but I've not seen or heard anything to indicate that she's become a much better or more accomplished fighter. Anyone who has seen it, feel free to chip in if Elsa has any super good feats. That sequence of her trying to run into the ocean made it look like she's taken a nerf if anything since the first film.

    In short, I'm not really seeing why Toph couldn't just bean her in the head with a boulder or something off the bat.

    Elsa's magic works casually on a much grander scale than typical benders, obviously, but I think her lack of skill and experience is going to cost her matchups here.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    So, I'm not going to get into this statement because I don't think it's worth litigating but I will note that I highly disagree with the premise you're suggesting here.



    They don't need to punch her? Most of the Avatar crew have pretty solid range games, much better mobility and skill and much greater experience at fighting supernatural opponents. Elsa, as far as I'm aware, has no formal combat training or much experience or, for that matter, enhanced durability.

    I also have not seen the second film but I've not seen or heard anything to indicate that she's become a much better or more accomplished fighter. Anyone who has seen it, feel free to chip in if Elsa has any super good feats. That sequence of her trying to run into the ocean made it look like she's taken a nerf if anything since the first film.

    In short, I'm not really seeing why Toph couldn't just bean her in the head with a boulder or something off the bat.

    Elsa's magic works casually on a much grander scale than typical benders, obviously, but I think her lack of skill and experience is going to cost her matchups here.
    Well I can say for certain that Elsa is much more skilled and experienced with her powers in the second film, though I don't recall any specific speed feats off hand, beyond spoilers:
    Catching up to a huge wave at the end, and she technically had a steed for part of that
    end of spoilers

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    That sequence of her trying to run into the ocean made it look like she's taken a nerf if anything since the first film.
    That's actually an impressive part of the movie. spoilers:
    She was fighting against a water elemental. And in the end she wins and controls it. Some good durability feats as well; she gets pounded by multiple waves but doesn't even feel it.
    end of spoilers

  8. #23
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    So, I'm not going to get into this statement because I don't think it's worth litigating but I will note that I highly disagree with the premise you're suggesting here.
    OK, disagreement noted. I really don't understand where it's coming from. The premise I stated is that Elsa catches a crossbow bolt after it's fired completely instinctively. It stands to reason for me that, knowing she can do this, it would be easier to react and do the same kind of thing in a later combat situation.

    If you had never dodged a bullet after it was fired, then did exactly that when someone shot at you, you wouldn't doubt yourself the next time, you'd just do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    They don't need to punch her? Most of the Avatar crew have pretty solid range games, much better mobility and skill and much greater experience at fighting supernatural opponents. Elsa, as far as I'm aware, has no formal combat training or much experience or, for that matter, enhanced durability.

    I also have not seen the second film but I've not seen or heard anything to indicate that she's become a much better or more accomplished fighter. Anyone who has seen it, feel free to chip in if Elsa has any super good feats. That sequence of her trying to run into the ocean made it look like she's taken a nerf if anything since the first film.

    In short, I'm not really seeing why Toph couldn't just bean her in the head with a boulder or something off the bat.

    Elsa's magic works casually on a much grander scale than typical benders, obviously, but I think her lack of skill and experience is going to cost her matchups here.
    I wasn't claiming that Elsa wins - I was literally replying to the idea that typical benders have martial arts skills that would let them hit her in hand to hand. And my point was that this is the WORST way to try to win for them. As you point out, many of them have good range games and can do them pretty quickly. I'm not enough of an expert on Avatar to be able to really judge winners here (or even name all of the characters and what they can do).
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  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    It is worth remembering that we use high end feats "consistent with a character's presentation." If Elsa wasn't presented as someone with that level of reflexes, a single example to the contrary isn't worth much.

  10. #25
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    It is worth remembering that we use high end feats "consistent with a character's presentation." If Elsa wasn't presented as someone with that level of reflexes, a single example to the contrary isn't worth much.
    She's not presented as someone WITHOUT those reflexes either. When her sister is bouncing around like a fool and she's just a little girl completely hiding her powers, she has no problem iceman-ing her all over the place with excellent speed and accuracy. Yeah, she misses on one, and it's the plot device that causes the movie, but it's not like she was ever anything but easy, comfortable and quick with this stuff early. Then she never used the powers again for 10 years or whatever. Then, within a few days of using the powers for the first time in those 10 years, she's instinctively freezing crossbow bolts out of the air after they are fired.

    I mean, there is only one crossbow bolt ever fired at her that she'd have to catch, and she does. She's clearly vastly superpowered. Board standards are in favor of the feat, not against it.
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  11. #26
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    She's not presented as someone WITHOUT those reflexes either.
    That is not a viable argument, that's a proof of absence.

    In the context of the first film, Elsa is consistently presented as having ostensibly normal reflexes. She has effectively one speed feat of note in that film and it's her specifically not choosing to take a defensive action, not dodging or moving or even really reacting beyond going "Oh shit I'm gonna get shot,"

    Barring actual speed feats from the second movie, I don't think there's a strong enough case to indicate Elsa having any significantly enhanced reflexes. Saying "Well, she did this one not really good feat so clearly she's now going to be able to react to opponents with better, more consistent speed feats because of conjecture," does not hold up under Rumbles rules for my money.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    It doesn't matter at all. Two dudes unload crossbows on her. After they are fired, she whips up ice to catch them in flight. That's a fair amount faster then these people throw kicks and punches.
    Are you joking? That were small not modern crossbows who don't shoot bolts but arrows, and Elsa just barely got not hit. That's absolutely not a fair amount faster than these people in Avatar can move, even Book 2 Zuko going by very conservative interpretations of the speed feats in Avatar casually did this against an arrow of a longbow(which should be in fact even faster than the kind of of crossbows Elsa kind of reacted to) drawn by a superhuman:



    So even if we take Elsa's crossbow feat as consistent dance the "Speedsters" of Avatar like Aang, Azula or Tenzin still circles around her like they do around Book 2 Zuko.

    To the topic at hand, Elsa has theoretically enough power to defeat even Avatars, but if you put her just into an arena with skilled benders and say fight is she toast. Elsa's biggest problem is that she isn't a good fighter at all, and here you put her up against superhuman martial artists.

  13. #28
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    That is not a viable argument, that's a proof of absence.

    In the context of the first film, Elsa is consistently presented as having ostensibly normal reflexes. She has effectively one speed feat of note in that film and it's her specifically not choosing to take a defensive action, not dodging or moving or even really reacting beyond going "Oh shit I'm gonna get shot,"

    Barring actual speed feats from the second movie, I don't think there's a strong enough case to indicate Elsa having any significantly enhanced reflexes. Saying "Well, she did this one not really good feat so clearly she's now going to be able to react to opponents with better, more consistent speed feats because of conjecture," does not hold up under Rumbles rules for my money.
    That's just... not how we work here, in all of my experience.

    As a sort of cross-platform example, Magneto isn't presented as a guy with enhanced physical combat reflexes, but with his powers he has some feats which are at least CBPH and could be argued to be BT (I don't think he is, but it's at least arguable).

    Elsa has normal enough reflexes with her fists and feet (I guess - she never fights this way). She has precisely one combat reaction feat, and in that feat, she demonstrates better-than-normal reflexes WITH HER POWERS. She never FAILS to demonstrate such things. So how is her presentation anything less than "she's got really really good reflexes with her powers?"

    Again, I'm not claiming that Elsa wins, not claiming that she's faster than the Avatar bunch. I'm JUST saying that the worst option on those guys' plates is to approach someone with her raw oomph and her "decent enough to freeze these dudes solid if they try to cross 100 feet to try to physically punch her in the nose" reflexes. They have much better options.
    Last edited by big_adventure; 12-09-2019 at 12:06 AM.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;"
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    ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops."

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  14. #29
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    Are you joking? That were small not modern crossbows who don't shoot bolts but arrows, and Elsa just barely got not hit. That's absolutely not a fair amount faster than these people in Avatar can move, even Book 2 Zuko going by very conservative interpretations of the speed feats in Avatar casually did this against an arrow of a longbow(which should be in fact even faster than the kind of of crossbows Elsa kind of reacted to) drawn by a superhuman:



    So even if we take Elsa's crossbow feat as consistent dance the "Speedsters" of Avatar like Aang, Azula or Tenzin still circles around her like they do around Book 2 Zuko.

    To the topic at hand, Elsa has theoretically enough power to defeat even Avatars, but if you put her just into an arena with skilled benders and say fight is she toast. Elsa's biggest problem is that she isn't a good fighter at all, and here you put her up against superhuman martial artists.
    It's like people don't even read what I write.

    I never once said that Elsa is faster then these characters. I said that she's probably fast enough to waste them with her ridiculous levels of oomph if they try to approach her to fight hand to hand. That would be the WORST way for them to fight her, as many (or most, or all) have MUCH better options here.

    Do you see the difference?
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  15. #30
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    As a sort of cross-platform example, Magneto isn't presented as a guy with enhanced physical combat reflexes, but with his powers he has some feats which are at least CBPH and could be argued to be BT (I don't think he is, but it's at least arguable).
    This isn't an equivalent case to Elsa in terms of the logic. Magneto has an extensive library of feats accrued over decades that indicate that he has enhanced reflexes of some type. The paucity of feats outweighs the traditional presentation.

    Elsa doesn't have anything like that to make the same kind of case.

    Elsa has normal enough reflexes with her fists and feet (I guess - she never fights this way). She has precisely one combat reaction feat, and in that feat, she demonstrates better-than-normal reflexes WITH HER POWERS. She never FAILS to demonstrate such things. So how is her presentation anything less than "she's got really really good reflexes with her powers?"
    If Elsa had made any kind of conscious decision to catch the arrow, even throwing a hand up in a casting motion that implied intent, I would be willing to be more open to the idea. However, the actual in-text events show her flinching away from the arrow with her eyes closed and being genuinely shocked that the arrow has been caught afterwards.

    Thus this feat does not, in my view of the argument, make a strong enough case to claim that Elsa herself has any kind of above human combat reflexes. You can make that argument if you want, this is a debate forum after all, but it is a paper thin argument and I personally would not buy it.

    Heck, we know her powers can impart sentience and can operate outside of her direct control (ice golems, Olaf). There are many moments in the film where her powers operate without her conscious choice, it's literally the premise of the film with her making a country-wide ice storm unintentionally. The arrow catch could just as easily argue be another aspect of her powers operating outside of her conscious control, some form of automated defence or similar.

    Please note, I'm not /making/ this argument specifically but pointing out that there are other interpretations of this individual feat. Personally, I find the above explanation a bit more plausible than granting Elsa enhanced reflexes of said singular feat.

    TL;DR: The feat, as viewed as a speed feat, is not good enough to claim that Elsa has any kind of enhanced reflexes without some kind of corroboration either in terms of other feats or character presentation. Elsa has neither, so I don't agree with your argument.

    Again, I'm not claiming that Elsa wins, not claiming that she's faster than the Avatar bunch. I'm JUST saying that the worst option on those guys' plates is to approach someone with her raw oomph and her "decent enough to freeze these dudes solid if they try to cross 100 feet to try to physically punch her in the nose" reflexes. They have much better options.
    I'm not really commenting on the fight either. My interest is about the viability of the feat for Elsa.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 12-09-2019 at 03:10 AM.
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