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  1. #31
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    This isn't an equivalent case to Elsa in terms of the logic. Magneto has an extensive library of feats accrued over decades that indicate that he has enhanced reflexes of some type. The paucity of feats outweighs the traditional presentation.

    Elsa doesn't have anything like that to make the same kind of case.



    If Elsa had made any kind of conscious decision to catch the arrow, even throwing a hand up in a casting motion that implied intent, I would be willing to be more open to the idea. However, the actual in-text events show her flinching away from the arrow with her eyes closed and being genuinely shocked that the arrow has been caught afterwards.

    Thus this feat does not, in my view of the argument, make a strong enough case to claim that Elsa herself has any kind of above human combat reflexes. You can make that argument if you want, this is a debate forum after all, but it is a paper thin argument and I personally would not buy it.

    Heck, we know her powers can impart sentience and can operate outside of her direct control (ice golems, Olaf). There are many moments in the film where her powers operate without her conscious choice, it's literally the premise of the film with her making a country-wide ice storm unintentionally. The arrow catch could just as easily argue be another aspect of her powers operating outside of her conscious control, some form of automated defence or similar.

    Please note, I'm not /making/ this argument specifically but pointing out that there are other interpretations of this individual feat. Personally, I find the above explanation a bit more plausible than granting Elsa enhanced reflexes of said singular feat.

    TL;DR: The feat, as viewed as a speed feat, is not good enough to claim that Elsa has any kind of enhanced reflexes without some kind of corroboration either in terms of other feats or character presentation. Elsa has neither, so I don't agree with your argument.



    I'm not really commenting on the fight either. My interest is about the viability of the feat for Elsa.
    Just because it's a mostly respectful debate with someone I respect, I'll keep going.

    1. With what you stip to there, that Elsa automatically defends herself against an incoming attack by freezing it, shows that, even if she's not consciously doing it, her POWERS include some kind of autodefense that work at significantly-faster-than-normal-human speeds. And again, for this particular situation, it makes trying to punch her in the schnozz a really bad idea.

    2. I would also posit that Elsa realizes that she's in trouble, but she is so inexperienced with her abilities that she has no idea that she can do what she did there. She's also never been shot at in her life. So yeah, she has a normal human flinch reaction away from the bolt. But she clearly also manifests her powers to defend herself, and again, does it basically instinctively, and faster then the already-fired bolt can cross the distance.

    3. I'd like you to clarify your argument against her repeating what we actually see on screen. If you are arguing that she's presented specifically and explicitly as someone with normal reactions, I'd like for you to point out where. If you're arguing that she can't be somewhat quicker than normal with her powers because it's only shown once, well, I'd ask to see the times where she either FAILS to act quickly with her powers, or she's explicitly shown not to be quick with powers. Because it seems like you are either arguing that the feat is an outlier, but an outlier needs to have contrary evidence and there isn't any of that, or that it's, I dunno, an unrepeatable accident, and again, that's not really shown by the material.


    Basically, I don't think the things exist to show that she can't consistently do what she does the only time she has to: she really only has the one speed/combat feat. And I agree that it's not amazing or super ultra dominant and conclusive, but it's all we have.
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  2. #32
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    1. With what you stip to there, that Elsa automatically defends herself against an incoming attack by freezing it, shows that, even if she's not consciously doing it, her POWERS include some kind of autodefense that work at significantly-faster-than-normal-human speeds. And again, for this particular situation, it makes trying to punch her in the schnozz a really bad idea.
    I'm not interested in the viability of a close range strategy being used against her. As I said, my argument is whether she has enhanced reflexes or not. Potential auto-defences does not parlay into her being personally quick.

    2. I would also posit that Elsa realizes that she's in trouble, but she is so inexperienced with her abilities that she has no idea that she can do what she did there. She's also never been shot at in her life. So yeah, she has a normal human flinch reaction away from the bolt. But she clearly also manifests her powers to defend herself, and again, does it basically instinctively, and faster then the already-fired bolt can cross the distance.
    Again, there were many times in the film when her powers did stuff on their own, without her bidding. None of this means she has functional enhanced reflexes. The feat is a bad speed feat.

    Also, I would also note that another interpretation that is quite viable would be that her powers did not target the arrow, rather that Elsa unconsciously threw up a shield and the speed her ice propagates was fast enough to catch it rather than actually block it.

    Then there's no auto-defence or target and it's more an indication that her grows from the ground to head height in the time it takes an arrow to go X distance.

    It's a very nebulous feat on all sides.

    3. I'd like you to clarify your argument against her repeating what we actually see on screen. If you are arguing that she's presented specifically and explicitly as someone with normal reactions, I'd like for you to point out where. If you're arguing that she can't be somewhat quicker than normal with her powers because it's only shown once, well, I'd ask to see the times where she either FAILS to act quickly with her powers, or she's explicitly shown not to be quick with powers. Because it seems like you are either arguing that the feat is an outlier, but an outlier needs to have contrary evidence and there isn't any of that, or that it's, I dunno, an unrepeatable accident, and again, that's not really shown by the material.
    This, also, isn't really a solid argument. It's a "this rock keeps away tigers," kind of thing. The burden of proof is on you [sic: the person making the argument] to argue why it is convincing.

    Thus far effectively the dialogue is:

    Big: Elsa has enhanced reflexes because she caught a crossbow bolt.

    Nik: That's not quite accurate as Elsa definitely didn't consciously choose to block the bolt and we never see her do anything else to suggest that she has enhanced reflexes of any kind.

    It falls to you to try and make the argument more convincing. For my part, the point is that we don't see anything else to suggest that she's beyond baseline human.

    Basically, I don't think the things exist to show that she can't consistently do what she does the only time she has to: she really only has the one speed/combat feat. And I agree that it's not amazing or super ultra dominant and conclusive, but it's all we have.
    As I said before, if she had a singular speed feat that had /less caveats to it/, I would be much more receptive to the idea of her having some form of ambiguously quick reflexes.

    However, because the feat comes with so much context to indicate that Elsa made no conscious decisions in the timeframe displayed, I don't see how you can expect the claim that she is faster than a regular person to be taken as viable.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 12-09-2019 at 04:45 AM.
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  3. #33
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Seeing as I made the first comment about the crossbow bolt, I feel I should clarify my stance.

    Elsa reacts to a crossbow bolt loosed at some 20' distance, if that. Medieval crossbows loosed at roughly 140 feet per second (it looks like a medieval crossbow, it's a steel bow, etc). Let's assume the bolt needed to travel about 25', to oversell the distance.

    That means Elsa managed to flinch away and throw up her hand in at most 0.17 seconds without any warning of when the guy was about to loose the bolt, assuming we go with it being a medieval crossbow designed to actually kill something, rather than a Nerf™ toy. That's reacting to the bolt. Whether or not the ice was meant to trap the bolt, instinctive, etc, is not my original point. My point is that she REACTS. Her reaction time is sufficient that she can note a crossbow bolt speeding toward her and throw a hand up.

    I am not saying she's going to be superspeed monstering attack powers all over people.

    I'm not saying she can consistently put up magical shields with such speeds as to intercept close-range crossbow bolts.

    I'm saying that her reaction time is clearly faster than mine, or most normal human's, because I strongly doubt anyone else could have gotten their hand up before getting hit. Heck, I probably wouldn't have even had a chance to flinch before the bolt was sticking out of my ribcage.

    Mileage, it may vary.

    ...also one might argue it's a one-off, as noted in my post, but I figure that's pretty clear already.
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  4. #34
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Amusingly, having re-watched the fight sequence, I'm inclined to say that with a little experience, she'll actually BE doing attacks at whatever her top-end reaction speed is rather easily. She's tossing them off one-and-two there in the first actual fight she has even when clearly holding back and not wanting to simply blast the guards themselves. AND demonstrates pinpoint and instant control on her powers when immobilizing one guard.

    From a comic book standpoint, for a first-timer in a fight it's rather impressive (despite the guards not simply loosing their bolts at the first opportunity...though understandable given she has powers, and they have a single shot each. That first guard must have reloaded pretty quickly).
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  5. #35
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Amusingly, having re-watched the fight sequence, I'm inclined to say that with a little experience, she'll actually BE doing attacks at whatever her top-end reaction speed is rather easily. She's tossing them off one-and-two there in the first actual fight she has even when clearly holding back and not wanting to simply blast the guards themselves. AND demonstrates pinpoint and instant control on her powers when immobilizing one guard.

    From a comic book standpoint, for a first-timer in a fight it's rather impressive (despite the guards not simply loosing their bolts at the first opportunity...though understandable given she has powers, and they have a single shot each. That first guard must have reloaded pretty quickly).
    As I say, with corroboration, I'd be more warm to the idea of her having advanced reflexes but off that one feat, I'm not buying it myself.

    Probably not useful that none of us have seen the second film :/
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  6. #36
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    As I say, with corroboration, I'd be more warm to the idea of her having advanced reflexes but off that one feat, I'm not buying it myself.

    Probably not useful that none of us have seen the second film :/
    I know - too bad that my kids grew up so much between the first and second.
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  7. #37
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    It looks like it's intended to portray an extremely lucky catch to me, and a seasoned bender is going to do more than fire one shot at her. Her block in that scene seems about as credible as Iroh catching a lightning bolt out of the sky.

    Meanwhile on the Avatar side, we've seen enough earthbending attacks travel hundreds of feet in a second or less to put pretty much anyone who's gone up against earthbending past arrowtime. I'm sure there's similar feats for other bending styles, the earth ones are just the easiest to follow. The volleyball game goes a long way to show that the main cast is drastically above normal humans in terms of reflexes, with the normies being unable to even react to most of the game, then there's Azula putting a big trench in the sand in a bit that seems specifically designed to show that it as an effect of the volleyball's velocity. Aang is specifically shown catching an explosion after it starts; he was reacting before the explosion happened, but the explosion itself happens in slow motion and we see Aang moving in context with it (seen here: https://youtu.be/xCCHi84IlDo?t=81 around 1:21 if my timestamp doesn't work. See every other time Explosion Man attacks, the explosion is instant once his pressure wave actually reaches where he aims, so we're seeing extremely slow motion).

    Elsa isn't outspeeding any named benders in Avatar and she's not a seasoned fighter. Hell, Katara flash-freezing an entire moat shows more immediate combat output with ice than most of what Elsa does. Most avatar characters are durable enough that being smacked into stone hard enough to crater it won't take them out, so actually freezing them is probably the only way Elsa can actually win a match, which eliminates her chances of beating pretty much any waterbender, since they can just de-ice themselves.
    Last edited by BitVyper; 12-09-2019 at 10:48 AM.
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  8. #38

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    I'm going to watch it soon! My kids are excited =)

    Also, throw my vote in with team Sharp. I'm totally cool with saying she is quicker then an average human to some extent.

    Nik has a compelling argument in his own way, but im varying the mileage so to speak :P If anything, Rumbles has had a history of being a touch more... relaxed when it comes to feats with a character who only has a few showings. A long character history is often a detriment in the sense that a person's best feats become classified as outliers.
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  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    It looks like it's intended to portray an extremely lucky catch to me, and a seasoned bender is going to do more than fire one shot at her. Her block in that scene seems about as credible as Iroh catching a lightning bolt out of the sky.

    Meanwhile on the Avatar side, we've seen enough earthbending attacks travel hundreds of feet in a second or less to put pretty much anyone who's gone up against earthbending past arrowtime. I'm sure there's similar feats for other bending styles, the earth ones are just the easiest to follow. The volleyball game goes a long way to show that the main cast is drastically above normal humans in terms of reflexes, with the normies being unable to even react to most of the game, then there's Azula putting a big trench in the sand in a bit that seems specifically designed to show that it as an effect of the volleyball's velocity. Aang is specifically shown catching an explosion after it starts; he was reacting before the explosion happened, but the explosion itself happens in slow motion and we see Aang moving in context with it (seen here: https://youtu.be/xCCHi84IlDo?t=81 around 1:21 if my timestamp doesn't work. See every other time Explosion Man attacks, the explosion is instant once his pressure wave actually reaches where he aims, so we're seeing extremely slow motion).

    Elsa isn't outspeeding any named benders in Avatar and she's not a seasoned fighter. Hell, Katara flash-freezing an entire moat shows more immediate combat output with ice than most of what Elsa does.
    Pretty sure most of us aren't suggesting she's faster then any named Avatar character. She clearly isnt.
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  10. #40
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Pretty sure most of us aren't suggesting she's faster then any named Avatar character. She clearly isnt.
    My fault for assuming the Elsa vs Avatar thread would be about comparing Elsa's feats to Avatar character feats.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    As I say, with corroboration, I'd be more warm to the idea of her having advanced reflexes but off that one feat, I'm not buying it myself.

    Probably not useful that none of us have seen the second film :/
    I've seene it, I just wasn't watching for Feats

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    My fault for assuming the Elsa vs Avatar thread would be about comparing Elsa's feats to Avatar character feats.
    There is no need to be defensive. I wasnt trying to shut you up or anything.

    Just pointing out that most of the people discussing had already moved on from that angle and were just discussing the viability of her feat in general =)
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  13. #43
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    The most impressive speed feat Elsa has in the second movie is instantly freezing a tree the fire spirit had just set on fire while facing away from the tree. As that fight progressed she got better at reacting to the fire spirit and quickly putting out the fires it started. But I wouldn't put that at high-end Avatar character level. She seems to have the best reaction speed of anyone in the Frozen universe, but that's as far as I'd go.

  14. #44
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    I'm going to watch it soon! My kids are excited =)

    Also, throw my vote in with team Sharp. I'm totally cool with saying she is quicker then an average human to some extent.

    Nik has a compelling argument in his own way, but im varying the mileage so to speak :P If anything, Rumbles has had a history of being a touch more... relaxed when it comes to feats with a character who only has a few showings. A long character history is often a detriment in the sense that a person's best feats become classified as outliers.
    I mean, I'm pretty excited to see it as well. I just don't know when that will be. I don't bring the whole tribe to the cinema in Paris unless it's something I really want to see on the big screen, or unless they beg.
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